Political Crossfire Forums

[Lumina]

Prog wrote: Lumina wrote: Well, we do know that only 1 % of abortions are performed because of rape or incest. And only a small % are performed to save the life of the mother (and you don't hear anybody opposing abortion for this reason). The great majority of abortions are performed for other reasons which are usually grouped under the umbrella term "convenience."

Okay, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but do you consider these "acts of convenience" murder? If so, on what grounds or context? (legal, "casual", moral)

Necessity:
1. being essential, indispensable, or requisite: a necessary part
2. happening or existing by necessity
3. acting or proceeding from compulsion or necessity; not free;
involuntary: a necessary agent.

[Prog]

straw man wrote: Prog wrote: The reason I give you such a hard time is that when you proclaim abortion as murder there is a "murderer" being accused behind each of these so-called "murders".

People tend to dislike being called a murderer by some jerk attempting to accuse them of commiting a "casual murder" which cannot be supported by any objective facts.

Lock and Load.. Blast those straw basturds back and attack some more. Use the tractor too. You can shred like 3 straw people with it.


%* :bana: ......more of the same from straw man.

At least you spared us more atonal circumvention by ignoring the first half of my post!

[Prog]

Lumina wrote: Prog wrote: Lumina wrote: Well, we do know that only 1 % of abortions are performed because of rape or incest. And only a small % are performed to save the life of the mother (and you don't hear anybody opposing abortion for this reason). The great majority of abortions are performed for other reasons which are usually grouped under the umbrella term "convenience."

Okay, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but do you consider these "acts of convenience" murder? If so, on what grounds or context? (legal, "casual", moral)

Necessity:
1. being essential, indispensable, or requisite: a necessary part
2. happening or existing by necessity
3. acting or proceeding from compulsion or necessity; not free;
involuntary: a necessary agent.

ummm...point?

[straw man]

Prog wrote: straw man wrote: Prog wrote: The reason I give you such a hard time is that when you proclaim abortion as murder there is a "murderer" being accused behind each of these so-called "murders".

People tend to dislike being called a murderer by some jerk attempting to accuse them of commiting a "casual murder" which cannot be supported by any objective facts.

Lock and Load.. Blast those straw basturds back and attack some more. Use the tractor too. You can shred like 3 straw people with it.


%* :bana: ......more of the same from straw man.

At least you spared us more atonal circumvention by ignoring the first half of my post!

You're kidding right? Your first half was so poor that I decided to do you a favor and not re-expose it. It looked like it was your pitiful attempt to force me to take one murder and extrapolate it into every abortion case. I never claimed such ludicrous things. You don't even know why you're arguing.

[holy_trinity]

This is just political spin issued by the right. The democrats favor death as much as republicans do.
In fact you could easily suggest republicans favor death in more circumstances then democrats.

- Most republicans fail to condemn abortion entirely. President George W Bush, for example, favors keeping abortion legal, funds Planned Parenthood and openly said he thinks abortions for rape victims is morally justified. Yet because he throws the anti-abortion crowd a few bones and pays some lip service to condemning abortion that makes him “pro-life.”

- The GOP favors the death penalty.

- The GOP favors deregulating arms control for American defense contractors. This has ended up with weapons falling into the hands terrorists, dictators and savages who use these weapons to maim, kill and threaten innocent people. Bush supplying communist Angola is a good example of this.

- The GOP has a history against worker’s rights. History has shown that republicans often put the corporation over the welfare of it’s workers. This in some circumstances has lead to the deaths of innocents.

- The GOP also has a history against consumer rights. Somehow profit over the safety of people can lead to accidental fatalities.

- The GOP opposes many forms of environmentalism. I find this issue as being the leading reason why anyone can consider the republican party as pro-death. The Earth is our life support system and the more we permit corporations to ravage it the more we kill ourselves. Pollution is already eroding our immune systems and making us more likely to succumb to illness.

[Prog]

straw man wrote: Prog wrote: straw man wrote: Prog wrote: The reason I give you such a hard time is that when you proclaim abortion as murder there is a "murderer" being accused behind each of these so-called "murders".

People tend to dislike being called a murderer by some jerk attempting to accuse them of commiting a "casual murder" which cannot be supported by any objective facts.

Lock and Load.. Blast those straw basturds back and attack some more. Use the tractor too. You can shred like 3 straw people with it.


%* :bana: ......more of the same from straw man.

At least you spared us more atonal circumvention by ignoring the first half of my post!

You're kidding right? Your first half was so poor that I decided to do you a favor and not re-expose it. It looked like it was your pitiful attempt to force me to take one murder and extrapolate it into every abortion case. I never claimed such ludicrous things. You don't even know why you're arguing.

OK, then according to you the particular abortion you are referring to was murder but no other abortions before, during, nor in the future will be or are now considered murder! Case closed!

BTW the ad hom was once again.................. %* :bana: .......entertaining!!

[straw man]

Quote: OK, then according to you the particular abortion you are referring to was murder but no other abortions before, during, nor in the future will be or are now considered murder!

When did I say THAT?

Let me guess, you can't come up with a quote for it, yet I'm sure it's "implied".. :lol:

I did not use any ad hominem, though you did before so that makes you a hypocrite now. All I said was that the first half of your post is crap, and you were trying to force me to extrapolate "murder" for ALL abortions, which is exactly what you were doing. Stating what you were doing is not an ad hominem attack, it's a mere truthful observation. And unlike YOU, I can actually quote where you did specifically that:

Quote: All I am asking: From all of the abortions performed each year, to which the particular situations and intimate details of each you ARE NOT PRIVY to, which one's can be classified (via your criteria) as being "murder" which ones are simply BS? YOU DON'T AND CAN'T KNOW this information for the remaining 99.9999% of them.

See how easy that is?

It's funny that YOU would sit here and whine about a fallacy, while you continiously make up arguments on my behalf and claim I said things in which I've never said.

[straw man]

Prog wrote: straw man wrote: I believe what I stated I believe. That is that ALL abortions are BS taking of human life. And that is my opinion. THAT is my emotive proclamation, so why don't you scrutinize that for a minute.


Because the blanket claim of BS is general, subjective, vague and naturally infers an (your) opinion.

No crap! I specifically said it was my subjective opinion... :roll: Seriously work on your reading comprehension. "arguing" with you is getting so exhausting, if you can't come up with something good you're going on ignore mode.

Quote: The claim of murder is specific and accusatory by definition.

Of course! It is specific and accusatory FOR THOSE CASES in which it is being claimed. It does NOT accuse any abortions for any other cases. Just like a prosecutor could charge ONE particular defendent for murder, that doesn't mean they are saying all cases of death in the world are murder. Yet you in your intellectual dishonesty would try to force them to prove murder for all those cases!

[Prog]

straw man wrote: Quote: OK, then according to you the particular abortion you are referring to was murder but no other abortions before, during, nor in the future will be or are now considered murder!

When did I say THAT?

Let me guess, you can't come up with a quote for it, yet I'm sure it's "implied".. :lol:


hmmmm. You are posting on a abortion thread, defending some "casual" use of the term murder, while condeming abortion as the "BS taking of life", further declaring murder as that which is cruel and inhuman. And you expect everyone to believe that you don't consider abortion (under certain conditions) murder?

It's much more than simply implied! :lol: Do you think we are that dumb!

Let's cut the BS straw man: Have the guts to make you position explicitly clear.

A pregnant woman has a late term abortion does this woman commit murder according to YOU?

YES or NO straw man?

[straw man]

If she causes the fetus pain when doing so, or if it is illegal where she is, then she is murdering the fetus. If not, then no.

Yet in either case it's BS. Because a human being has lots its chance to live.

Had you been reading you would have noticed I was already explicitly clear about this but here it is again anyway.

[Prog]

straw man wrote: If she causes the fetus pain when doing so, or if it is illegal where she is, then she is murdering the fetus. If not, then no.


So, in other words you don't know whether this was murder or not; in fact, you can't know if any particular abortion is murder or not according to your criteria.

My previous quote, although avoided by you, has now been indirectly answered:

prog wrote: According to you abortions CAN BE classified as murder. All I am asking: From all of the abortions performed each year, to which the particular situations and intimate details of each you ARE NOT PRIVY to, which one's can be classified (via your criteria) as being "murder" [from] which ones are simply BS? YOU DON'T AND CAN'T KNOW this information for the remaining 99.9999% of them.

Since your opinion toward abortion/murder contain such narrow and specific criteria it cannot be qualified as valid commentary toward the vast majority of specific abortion cases (99.9%). It can only be used in the general, abstract context, thus it's basically rendered impotent and useless.

This is fine with me. It just seems doubtful that someone who holds such a strong moral position such as this, only uses it within its own limited context. :wink:
But I'll leave it at this as you're correct, I have no evidence to the contrary.

[straw man]

Prog wrote: Since your opinion toward abortion/murder contain such narrow and specific criteria it cannot be qualified as valid commentary toward the vast majority of specific abortion cases (99.9%).

No sh:t. Yes that's what I said. I specifically stated to be perfectly clear that abortions can theoretically be called murder if it is one but for the most part they are not murder. Finally this thread makes sense to you.

[Prog]

straw man wrote: Finally this thread makes sense to you.


%* :bana: ........ :wink: