Political Crossfire Forums

RyzinEnagy · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject:

[quote="Ek0nomik"] JayDubya wrote: Take that last point to the gun control forum, but you're dead wrong.

As for the rest of your spiel, if you want to talk about Republicans and Democrats on the matter of death penalty and abortion...

Democrats wish to protect convicted murderers and make it legal to kill the unborn. Republicans wish to protect the unborn and to execute convicted murderers [Ek0nomik Note: Murderers, who are alive.]

(So you don't believe a fetus is alive??)

Quote: I find the latter to be infinitely more logical.

Quote: Yeah, that's much more logical. :roll:

By even making that argument, you are falling into what you're using to punch at Democrats with.

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote: Of course I never SAID abortion was murder, so I guess I don't have to worry about this pitfall.

Of course, of course.... :roll:

JayDubya · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 1883 Location: Texas

I think the legal exemption provided by the government is invalid, therefore I still consider it murder.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Prog wrote: straw man wrote: Of course I never SAID abortion was murder, so I guess I don't have to worry about this pitfall.

Of course, of course.... :roll:

Oh so I'm lying?

Care to quote me where I said "abortion is murder"?

(Besides THIS post of course.)

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5050 Location: Boston, MA

obama08 wrote: REPUBLICANS PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS!
I know I made it slightly long, but im sure it will be worth the read.

Ramesh Ponnuru, the author of “The Party of Death” outlines his case against abortion by stating that the democrats, the media, and the courts have a “disregard for life”.
I cannot begin to state how many problems there are in what this man is trying to say.

To start off, out of all democrats, less than 50% are “pro-choice”, and almost the majority of pro-choice people do not condone late term abortions. One thing we do not see on his cover is that there are republicans who are pro-choice.

I would love to see the poll that determined less than 50% of democrats are prochoice.

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote:
Oh so I'm lying?

Care to quote me where I said "abortion is murder"?

(Besides THIS post of course.)

Care to quote me where I said you were lying? 8:)

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Prog wrote: straw man wrote: Of course I never SAID abortion was murder, so I guess I don't have to worry about this pitfall.

Of course, of course.... :roll:

Where I'm from, rolling your eyes at someone after saying "of course" indicates incredulousness.

I must have misinterpreted; you must have rolled your eyes at me for some other reason.

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote: Prog wrote: straw man wrote: Of course I never SAID abortion was murder, so I guess I don't have to worry about this pitfall.

Of course, of course.... :roll:

Where I'm from, rolling your eyes at someone after saying "of course" indicates incredulousness.

I must have misinterpreted; you must have rolled your eyes at me for some other reason.

**/prog laughs as the point zooms over straw man's head/** :think:

Tacitity can be a two-way street!

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Yeah sorry I'm dense. Why don't you tell me the meaning behind "Of course, of course :roll: "

Atlas Bergeron · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 2680 Location: Reality

obama08 wrote: REPUBLICANS PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS!
I know I made it slightly long, but im sure it will be worth the read.

Ramesh Ponnuru, the author of “The Party of Death” outlines his case against abortion by stating that the democrats, the media, and the courts have a “disregard for life”.
I cannot begin to state how many problems there are in what this man is trying to say.

To start off, out of all democrats, less than 50% are “pro-choice”, and almost the majority of pro-choice people do not condone late term abortions. One thing we do not see on his cover is that there are republicans who are pro-choice.

One thing he also fails to mention in his book is the fact that since abortion was made legal the crime rate in America has significantly been reduced. Many times, the people who are getting abortions tend to be poor black women in big cities, who’s children if not aborted would have in many cases become hooked into gangs, violence, drugs, and just causing more crime within big cities.

Isn’t this what so many republicans want? I’m not calling them racist but we do understand from hurricane Katrina our republican administration did not have a very big heart for the thousands of black people ravaged in New Orleans…which leads to my point, aren’t they happy these black children are aborted?

I like the term he uses…“The Party of Death”. It’s a phrase conservatives are going to love because it uses one of the biggest generalized titles that I have ever seen come out of a conservative book…well besides Ann Coulters “GODLESS” b/s.

But lets talk about “death” on both parties. Like I said before, less than 50% of democrats are pro-choice. Which leads to my question….what percentage of republicans are pro-war? See because out of every republican that I have ever talked too…almost all of them favor the war in Iraq. This compared to when I talk to a lot of democrats, they tend to not be too favorable of the pro-choice agenda.

How about the history of the death penalty. If you look back Republicans have always been the bigger favors on it. Notice how I say “the bigger favors” because I’m not going to be like Ponnuru and suggest there aren’t people who favor the death penalty from the Democratic Party.

And my last issue…gun control. How would it be if we all had free access to guns? The death and crime rate in big cities would sky rocket, and if abortion was made illegal as well, the crime rate would soar even higher. Talk about a disregard of life…I see it way more in the Republican party then in the Democratic.

Your right, "party of death" isn't really accurate...

hmm...

How bout "party of murder?"

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote: Yeah sorry I'm dense. Why don't you tell me the meaning behind "Of course, of course :roll: "

Atlas said it best:

"Your right, "party of death" isn't really accurate...

hmm...

How bout "party of murder?"

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

That's what I'm trying to say.. not all abortion is "murder".. Yet it's all BS taking of human life.

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote: That's what I'm trying to say.. not all abortion is "murder".. Yet it's all BS taking of human life.

How do you distinguish the 'BS' abortion from 'murder' in any particular abortion case, given that you lack the knowledge whether the fetus suffered pain or not? (your criteria for 'murder')

You can't.

The only BS here is what you are trying to feed everyone here on the forum.

Admit it straw man! You believe ALL abortions are murder, yet you are smart enough to know that when such emotive proclaimations are logically and rationally scrutinized, you must bring out the song 'n dance routine (quoted above) for all of our enjoyment. %* :bana:

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Prog wrote: How do you distinguish the 'BS' abortion from 'murder' in any particular abortion case...

In ANY particular case?!?!!?!? Fortunatily I don't have to in order to back up any of the things I've said in this thread. But nice try with counjuring up that imaginary onus.

Prog wrote: How do you distinguish the 'BS' abortion from 'murder' in any particular abortion case, given that you lack the knowledge whether the fetus suffered pain or not? (your criteria for 'murder')

You can't.

Sure I can... For ONE particular case (which is all I need to come up with to substantiate my claim that abortion CAN BE called murder) I can simply refer you to the late term abortion of the child which has a fully formed brain, complete with brain wave activity, which is connected to the established and functioning central nervous system. This, in addition to the fact that the baby physically reacts to the pain (how could they react if they don't feel it) gives us more than enough scientific "knowledge" that the baby had pain. In fact, we can safely assume that baby feels even more pain then a grown up would, because they are tender and their nerve endings are packed so much closer together.

To prove my claim I could also just refer you to say Argentina, or any country where abortions are illegal. Then since it is an illegal killing, you could call it murder, couldn't you?

At this point I don't even think you know what it is of mine that you actually disagree with. I think that all you know is that you're arguing with me.

Prog wrote: The only BS here is what you are trying to feed everyone here on the forum.

Like what?? Quote exactly what is I said that's wrong and why. Like I asked you to quote where I said that abortion was murder and you couldn't.. Because the made up argument you created on my behalf doesn't actually exist, I also suspect that this alleged "BS" doesn't exist as well. But I'll give you a chance to quote it.

Actually on second thought you should probably not go digging for a quote of something you disagree with. For one reason, it's really a wild goose chase; you're simply not going to find it, but also you might find things stated off the bat which contradict your phoney argument you made up for me.. Things like..

straw man wrote: I don't think all abortions involve the abortionist murdering the fetus. I think most of them (since they are done "on time" before the fetus can feel it) do not involve murdering.

straw man wrote: My claim is that abortion CAN be called murder if it is cruel...

So then you say, "Admit it straw man! You believe ALL abortions are murder." I can only assume it must be one of two reasons for that. One is that you did not read this thread, at which point I wonder why you are arguing about it, or two you must have very poor reading comprehension.

You should tell me what it is specifically that you disagree with, and PLEASE let it be something that I actually said. Otherwise you have no good reason to respond at all.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Prog wrote: Admit it straw man! You believe ALL abortions are murder, yet you are smart enough to know that when such emotive proclaimations are logically and rationally scrutinized, you must bring out the song 'n dance routine (quoted above) for all of our enjoyment. %* :bana:

Now that is BS. I believe what I stated I believe. That is that ALL abortions are BS taking of human life. And that is my opinion. THAT is my emotive proclamation, so why don't you scrutinize that for a minute.

Now regarding the murder part, I don't know which is worse, the fact that you have to fabricate a phoney argument on my behalf so you can knock that down, or that you feel the need to ridicule me for the argument which you made up on my behalf. Pretty lame if you ask me.

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote:

Sure I can... For ONE particular case (which is all I need to come up with to substantiate my claim that abortion CAN BE called murder)

Okay, but is your qualification for abortion/murder limited to just this ONE case? Your position/statement infers much more than you want to admit to.

According to you abortions CAN BE classified as murder. All I am asking: From all of the abortions performed each year, to which the particular situations and intimate details of each you ARE NOT PRIVY to, which one's can be classified (via your criteria) as being "murder" which ones are simply BS? YOU DON'T AND CAN'T KNOW this information for the remaining 99.9999% of them.

Your simple uninformed opinion is unqualified, emotive rhetoric.

The reason I give you such a hard time is that when you proclaim abortion as murder there is a "murderer" being accused behind each of these so-called "murders".

People tend to dislike being called a murderer by some jerk attempting to accuse them of commiting a "casual murder" which cannot be supported by any objective facts.

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 14798

Well, we do know that only 1 % of abortions are performed because of rape or incest. And only a small % are performed to save the life of the mother (and you don't hear anybody opposing abortion for this reason). The great majority of abortions are performed for other reasons which are usually grouped under the umbrella term "convenience."

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

Lumina wrote: Well, we do know that only 1 % of abortions are performed because of rape or incest. And only a small % are performed to save the life of the mother (and you don't hear anybody opposing abortion for this reason). The great majority of abortions are performed for other reasons which are usually grouped under the umbrella term "convenience."

Okay, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but do you consider these "acts of convenience" murder? If so, on what grounds or context? (legal, "casual", moral)

Prog · Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 2228

straw man wrote: I believe what I stated I believe. That is that ALL abortions are BS taking of human life. And that is my opinion. THAT is my emotive proclamation, so why don't you scrutinize that for a minute.

Because the blanket claim of BS is general, subjective, vague and naturally infers an (your) opinion. The claim of murder is specific and accusatory by definition.

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

Prog wrote: The reason I give you such a hard time is that when you proclaim abortion as murder there is a "murderer" being accused behind each of these so-called "murders".

People tend to dislike being called a murderer by some jerk attempting to accuse them of commiting a "casual murder" which cannot be supported by any objective facts.

Lock and Load.. Blast those straw basturds back and attack some more. Use the tractor too. You can shred like 3 straw people with it.