Political Crossfire Forums

ramashkagromik · Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 233 Location: Kiev

We all know that 3/4 of the America Households own some sort of a gun. Don't you think its barbaric for people in our age to have the need to own a gun to feel secure? We are not in Sudan, or Congo, it is the job of the US government to provide a feeling of safety to the Americans, only then they will give up arms, and still, with haste, for it is part of their culture.
I say that the American Gov has to prove to its inhabitants that owning a gun is useless.

i know its over-asked.
Do you think that the gov should mind the possessions of guns?

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

Guns exist to protect private property and to ensure that the populace can oppose a corrupt and a tyranical government (something you should know all about :wink:) if they so wish.

ramashkagromik · Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 233 Location: Kiev

hmm, kakoi ze ti loh, vsetaki interesniy post.

But why do you need a gun to protect yourself, surely then others will use that as an exuse to own a gun and then use it in an "non-selfdefence" manner.

Varyag · Joined: 17 Aug 2006 Posts: 397 Location: Melos

Guns are inanimate things, you could fully well have a machine gun sitting in the middle of a room, but it would harm no-one unless tampered with by an unscrupulous indavidual. Everybody owning a gun does not lead to anarchial gunfighting on the streets, the United States is proof of this, a very small minority of people well ever use gun rights for malicious intentions - in either case criminals and governments will always find a way to posses firearms, illigal or not, it is only we, the people who obey the law who would not have guns if they are illigalized, and I'm sorry to say, but that means the joke is on us.

britboy · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 3461 Location: London

Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.

Onevote · Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 1688 Location: Tampa, Florida

britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff. :rotf: It's funny to to hear some of you guys make an attempt to psycho analyze the average gun owner. Unfortunately, you come off sounding like an 8th grade adolescent ( and you might be) when you start with the guns make you feel tough and cool BS. This comes from your own inability to deal with reality and more likely stems from a deep personal view of firearms.

Either way, it is a silly argument.

sailorman126 · Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 418

britboy
i didnt know that was teh reason i own guns.
good thing you told me.
i always thouhgt i owned them becasue i enjoyed target shooting.
just like i own own archery and golf equipment i like the challege.
or is that diffrent? is it only likeing target shooting with guns that means i am less than a man. and if i like target shooting with a bow an arrow i am more of a man? and golf makes me an avg man? what aboutmy martial arts what does that make me then?
so much to think about now am i a real man or not?
and all this time i thouhgt i did these things for fun.
good thing you where able to tell me the truth with out ever having met me.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

ramashkagromik wrote: We all know that 3/4 of the America Households own some sort of a gun.

As is our right.

ramashkagromik wrote: Don't you think its barbaric for people in our age to have the need to own a gun to feel secure?

No. It's just common sense. I don't think it's barbaric that I own a spare tire for my cars, nor that I have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers.

ramashkagromik wrote: We are not in Sudan, or Congo, it is the job of the US government to provide a feeling of safety to the Americans, only then they will give up arms, and still, with haste, for it is part of their culture.

The problem with the victims of Katrina is that they relied on the government for things that they should have relied on themselves for. Self defense is the same thing. I live in hurricane country. It is not uncommon for me to lose phone and power for several days at a time. Whenever there is a hurricane, etc., looters come out of the woodwork. Should I rely on the government for safety, when I can easily protect myself?

ramashkagromik wrote:
I say that the American Gov has to prove to its inhabitants that owning a gun is useless.

They can't do it, as it's not true.

ramashkagromik wrote: i know its over-asked.
Do you think that the gov should mind the possessions of guns?

Of course not. I think the government should be encouraging law-abiding citizens to learn how to use guns.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

ramashkagromik wrote: hmm, kakoi ze ti loh, vsetaki interesniy post.

But why do you need a gun to protect yourself, surely then others will use that as an exuse to own a gun and then use it in an "non-selfdefence" manner.

If they improperly use guns, they should be punished harshly. I have no problem with mandatory life without parole for any violent crimes committed with a gun.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

No, they don't. I own guns, and have for my entire adult life (and had access to guns during my teen years). They have never made me feel cool, powerful and strong.

britboy wrote: That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

Self defense is the main reason. I don't buy the government enslaving me argument either.

britboy wrote: But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.

And your attempt to psychoanalyze us makes you a pretty shallow character.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 13091 Location: idaho

Ramashkagromik,, Now my russian is not to good but if you can make out the letters I am trying to write here this is a good point

Russian: Ho Aypakn AoBeprhot givernment
English: But fools trust the government

ANy way so much for that, We as americans have a legal right to own and possess weapons. There are those that say we have to many and that is a dead issue really. The fact that we do have them under the 2nd amendment is what keeps our government in check. The people in america have to have the right to self protection.
In one sense you are right about the govt. having the job but the law enforcement is not required under a supreme court case to protect us. It is not a law that says they have to.
Now, in the sudan , congo, cambodia, and a dozen other places in the world the right to have weapons was taken away and ...well you can see the result. The people have little or no way to protect them selves from dictators and tyrants or warlords.
As for giving up guns....there are a few thing to think about here.
One there are 80 to 90 million legal gun owners in america and yes they have guns. Now with 200+ million weapons on hand and more every year, there is obviously a reason why we keep them.
Self protection, detering this govt from taking over as it were, and to prevent any nation on earth from taking our land without a fight.
All politics aside, many people who own guns onw them for hunting, target shooting and what ever reason.
So, asking americans to give up their guns when there is a need and a very unstable world would be like asking the people of Kiev to allow the desrtuction of the Literary Memorial museum of Mikhail Bulgakov.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10905 Location: Podunk, Colorado

ramashkagromik wrote: We all know that 3/4 of the America Households own some sort of a gun. Don't you think its barbaric for people in our age to have the need to own a gun to feel secure?
Don't you think that it is barbaric for crminals to make people the need to own a gun?

Quote: We are not in Sudan, or Congo, it is the job of the US government to provide a feeling of safety to the Americans, only then they will give up arms, and still, with haste, for it is part of their culture.
I say that the American Gov has to prove to its inhabitants that owning a gun is useless.
Really? How come there are over 2,000,000 self-defensive uses of a gun a year? Do you know wht you are talking about?

The Denver Post, Denver, Colo., 11/23/01
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2002
A woman shot and injured a gunman in her yard early one Sunday, cutting short his assault on her and her children. Jaquie Creazzo and her three daughters were forced to flee their home after smoke from a car fire billowed into the house. Once they were outside, Justin Michael Getz came screaming toward the wheelchair-bound woman and her family, firing two handguns at them. "He was loaded for bears," Creazzo said. Her daughters and two nearby firefighters ducked for cover from the erratic gunfire, but Creazzo drew her own gun and fired several shots, hitting her attacker in the leg. Getz was the ex-boyfriend of Creazzo's eldest child, and, according to Creazzo, had threatened to kill the family two days earlier when the girl refused to see him again. "I'm certain if I hadn't responded, none of us would be here today," Creazzo said of the incident. "He had made threats to kill each and every one of us."

Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, 5/23/01
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2001
Two armed men entered a southwest Denver home one night and allegedly robbed the family residing there; a man, woman and their two sons. According to Denver Police Lt. Jon Priest, the men pointed their handguns at the father and demanded money. The nefarious duo then took property from the home and, as they were leaving, family members chased them out of the house. One of the victims grabbed a firearm and a gun battle ensued leaving one of the suspects wounded.

The Gazette, Colorado Springs, CO, 11/28/00)
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/2001
After a 72-year-old grandmother heard noises in the back yard of her Colorado Springs, Colo., home late one night, she called out to ask who was there, then grabbed her gun. Seconds later, an intruder slammed into the bolted back door, but the feisty woman was ready with her.38-cal. revolver. Four shots sent the man fleeing to a car, but police quickly caught up with him after he allegedly caused two hit-and-run accidents. He was later investigated in connection with two rapes that occurred in the same area. The elderly victim later reflected, "What would I have done if I hadn't had my gun? I would have been just another statistic."

Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO ; 7/19/99
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/1999
A 34-year-old Boulder County, Colorado, woman became the trapped prey in a life-and-death contest with her estranged husband one Saturday when he invaded her home and held her against her will for more than five hours. The woman finally managed to break free by crawling through a second-story window. Then, turning the tables on her tormentor, she re-entered the house this time with a gun and ordered him to leave. The man was later arrested at his home and charged with attempted murder, burglary, felony menacing, harassment by stalking and false imprisonment.

Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, 4/9/97
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/1997
Jerry Sanchez was surprised to see a gun being pointed in his face and a young crook demanding money from him at his Denver, Colorado, store. The felon was even more surprised when Sanchez slapped his hand away and drew his own .45 Cal. revolver from under the counter. The man and an accomplice fled without a shot being fired.

The Post, Denver, CO, 10/14/95
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/1996
William G. Lowery, 86, was just being helpful when he let a man into his home who said he needed to use a phone. Once inside, the man drew a gun on the elderly Denver, Colorado, resident. Lowery's nephew, John Kenneth Real, seeing what was happening from another room, drew his own gun and fired, fatally wounding the intruder. Police believe the deceased criminal, whose record included a previous burglary conviction, may have broken into another home earlier that evening.

The Chieftain, Pueblo, CO, 1/7/95
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1995
Fourteen-year-old Nathan Archuleta was home alone with the flu when he came face-to-face with an adult burglar standing in the kitchen of his Pueblo, Colorado, home. Recognizing he had been caught in the act, the thief grabbed a kitchen knife and slashed the terror-struck boy in the arm. Archuleta dashed for his bedroom, hoping to escape the full-grown attacker, who followed closely behind him. With nowhere else to run, the boy grabbed his BB gun from his dresser and shot the criminal, who miraculously fled the house.

The Gazette Telegraph, Colorado Springs, CO, 8/28/93
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 12/1/1993
It was something of a comical situation. The 300-lb. "customer" was holding a 2" knife, while the Colorado Springs liquor-store clerk was holding a gun. It all started when the man asked for a bottle of wine, then pulled a knife instead of cash, prompting the clerk to grab one of the handguns kept in the store. After a brief standoff during which he put the knife away and tried to make friends, the hefty would-be crook fled empty-handed.

The Post, Denver, CO, 3/17/93
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/1993
A Denver liquor-store clerk sprung to action after an armed man entered his store, fired a shot and threatened the clerk and a customer friend. When the gunman threatened the friend, the clerk jumped over the counter and both men struggled with the robber. The clerk was finally able to get the store's gun from under the counter, fired twice and killed the attacker. Police said the clerk would not be charged.

The County Independent, Delta, CO, 1/30/91
State: CO
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/1991
Delta, Colo., druggist George Morris started taking his revolver to work after another pharmacy in the town was robbed. When a criminal passed him a note demanding drugs and held a gun on him, Morris responded by pulling his own revolver. After a short standoff, the crook beat a hasty retreat without firing a shot.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx
Keyword: Gun State: CO

Quote: i know its over-asked.
Do you think that the gov should mind the possessions of guns?
That would be illegal.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10905 Location: Podunk, Colorado

ramashkagromik wrote: hmm, kakoi ze ti loh, vsetaki interesniy post.

But why do you need a gun to protect yourself, surely then others will use that as an exuse to own a gun and then use it in an "non-selfdefence" manner.
I use mine is a none defense manner atleast twice a month.

Some gophers are going to die this evening.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10905 Location: Podunk, Colorado

britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.
:lol:

Sports cars do the same, my brother just bought a second one.

Lets ban TV! It makes people feel good! Lets ban cloths! Because it makes people feel good! :lol:

Revenant · Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 17178 Location: Bliss

britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.

I'm for the right to bear arms but choose not to own one. Kinda throws a wrench in your crappy generalization doesn't it?

britboy · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 3461 Location: London

Wolverine wrote: britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.
:lol:

Sports cars do the same, my brother just bought a second one.

Lets ban TV! It makes people feel good! Lets ban cloths! Because it makes people feel good! :lol:

It's good to see you agree with me Wolverine! At least together we can agree on this point .. :) That is, we both agree WHY a lot of gun owners actually, deep down, own their guns.

Now on to the true debate .. whether we should allow such sillyness to continue in the name of fun? After all, a gun is a pretty serious thing ...

britboy · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 3461 Location: London

Revenant wrote: britboy wrote: Guns make people feel cool, powerful and strong, and like 'the main man' that deserves respect.

That is why people like them. Self defence, and even sillier things like 'to stop my government enslaving me' and 'cos some guy 200 years ago said I could' are just phrases to hide behind. Deep down if testosterone driven 'wannabe' tough guys didn't think they were cool and made the owners feel cool and tough .. they'd disappear within a week.

But of course because this reasoning makes them out to be pretty shallow characters, they make up a load of other stuff.

I'm for the right to bear arms but choose not to own one. Kinda throws a wrench in your crappy generalization doesn't it?

Actually sounds like you're a sensible chap. I suppose in the same way carrying round a 3 foot samarai sword would make a lot of chaps feel pretty special, kind of tough .. -- but most of us take the sensible option and don't bother.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 10905 Location: Podunk, Colorado

britboy wrote:

It's good to see you agree with me Wolverine! At least together we can agree on this point .. :) That is, we both agree WHY a lot of gun owners actually, deep down, own their guns.
Yeah guns are awesome. Why do you think I own 14? Why do you suppose people own multiple cars? Guitars? Game consoles? Its a hobby, like any other. But you seem to think an interest in firearms is far more sinister than other hobbies.

Quote: Now on to the true debate .. whether we should allow such sillyness to continue in the name of fun?
I agree, we should ban everything that can cause silly funism, its a very serious disease.

Quote: After all, a gun is a pretty serious thing ...
I agree, we should also ban everything that can kill people.

micfranklin

ramashkagromik wrote: We all know that 3/4 of the America Households own some sort of a gun. Don't you think its barbaric for people in our age to have the need to own a gun to feel secure? We are not in Sudan, or Congo, it is the job of the US government to provide a feeling of safety to the Americans, only then they will give up arms, and still, with haste, for it is part of their culture.
I say that the American Gov has to prove to its inhabitants that owning a gun is useless.

i know its over-asked.
Do you think that the gov should mind the possessions of guns?

You know, there's a reason why the 2nd amendment states we have the right to bear arms :? True, one job of the government is to protect Americans, but if the government turns violent then a gun is necessary to stop them. Plus, with a gun in your home, you can fend off an intruder in seconds as opposed to calling the police and waiting ten minutes for them to arrive (which is enough time for an intruder to kill you)

Sixgun_Symphony · Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 155 Location: Land of the Free

Funny how the Euros still have a serf mentality. ie.. "only the ruling class and their security forces should have weapons".