Political Crossfire Forums

[ramashkagromik]

you know it and i know it, if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, all "pro-aborters" will take an EZ trip to Mexico and come back well rested and emty-bellied.
don't you think? i know i would

[Varyag]

Nice to know you're from Ukraine, a country with a negative birth rate which is suffering massive economic problems partially due to this.

Tye kto ubivayut ditey budut' nakazoni.

[ramashkagromik]

da poshel ti, ti rodinu predal, tebya ne kto ne lyubit, loh

[Varyag]

ramashkagromik wrote: da poshel ti, ti rodinu predal, tebya ne kto ne lyubit, loh

kak ya, magu ya sprosit, "predal rodinu"? Rodina vseh pridala.

[ramashkagromik]

ti che parish, ti dibil, takoi kto nechego ne daby'otsa, esli tvou doch iznasiloout, posmotrim kak ti budesh virashevat' etogo negretenka.

[Varyag]

ramashkagromik wrote: ti che parish, ti dibil, takoi kto nechego ne daby'otsa, esli tvou doch iznasiloout, posmotrim kak ti budesh virashevat' etogo negretenka.

Smeshno, ya dovolno molodio, tolko zakonchel universitet, i ya usje bolshi zarobotal chem bolshinstvo unkraintzav zorobotuyout v ih tzelyou schizen.

I can't understand your other part, but if its to do with rape, than thats just 1% of all abortions and should always be legal, we're talking about the other 99% that shouldn't.

[Selfish_Meme]

Varyag wrote: ramashkagromik wrote: ti che parish, ti dibil, takoi kto nechego ne daby'otsa, esli tvou doch iznasiloout, posmotrim kak ti budesh virashevat' etogo negretenka.

Smeshno, ya dovolno molodio, tolko zakonchel universitet, i ya usje bolshi zarobotal chem bolshinstvo unkraintzav zorobotuyout v ih tzelyou schizen.

I can't understand your other part, but if its to do with rape, than thats just 1% of all abortions and should always be legal, we're talking about the other 99% that shouldn't.
'You' may be talking about the other 99% but the pro-life parties aren't, they want them all banned, regardless. see - Ireland, look up raped 15 YO prevented from going to UK for abortion.

Lets hear it when its your daughter.

[Varyag]

Selfish_Meme wrote: Varyag wrote: ramashkagromik wrote: ti che parish, ti dibil, takoi kto nechego ne daby'otsa, esli tvou doch iznasiloout, posmotrim kak ti budesh virashevat' etogo negretenka.

Smeshno, ya dovolno molodio, tolko zakonchel universitet, i ya usje bolshi zarobotal chem bolshinstvo unkraintzav zorobotuyout v ih tzelyou schizen.

I can't understand your other part, but if its to do with rape, than thats just 1% of all abortions and should always be legal, we're talking about the other 99% that shouldn't.
'You' may be talking about the other 99% but the pro-life parties aren't, they want them all banned, regardless. see - Ireland, look up raped 15 YO prevented from going to UK for abortion.

I'll support them to the extent that it serves the rational viewpoint - I understand that under rare circumstances abotions can be life-saving or necessary when the woman was impregnated against her will. However to allow women to cull children out of their own stupid inability to pop a pill that night after sx is letting women get away with murder - last time I checked personal responsibility was the foundation of our society, correct me if I'm wrong.

Abortion isnt going to be swept away with one all-inclusive bill, the first one will usually ban partial-birth abortion, which I'll support, then ban convenience(stupidity) abortions which I'll also support, by the time one gets to medical abortions however I think most people would draw the line, especially if pregnancy is deemed to be a great health risk for the mother, and lets face it if mothers die so do their babies, may as well save one person.

[Revenant]

ramashkagromik wrote: da poshel ti, ti rodinu predal, tebya ne kto ne lyubit, loh

snorkle snorkle, debash snsrsun da planifoof shcan snooky snooky puss fwoom.

[Darbyh25]

puedo ir al baño?

[Selfish_Meme]

Varyag wrote: I'll support them to the extent that it serves the rational viewpoint - I understand that under rare circumstances abotions can be life-saving or necessary when the woman was impregnated against her will. However to allow women to cull children out of their own stupid inability to pop a pill that night after sx is letting women get away with murder - last time I checked personal responsibility was the foundation of our society, correct me if I'm wrong.
Sometimes birth control is innefective through no ones fault, labelling them 'stupid' really just shows your own ignorance of the process. Also Pro-Lifers even see the morning after pill as abortive (see RU 486, or AllAmericanMan). Abortion is not murder, see http://dictionary.law.com for the legal definition of murder. If illegal it would be manslaughter at it's worst, as there is no malice involved.

Varyag wrote: Abortion isnt going to be swept away with one all-inclusive bill, the first one will usually ban partial-birth abortion, which I'll support, then ban convenience(stupidity) abortions which I'll also support, by the time one gets to medical abortions however I think most people would draw the line, especially if pregnancy is deemed to be a great health risk for the mother, and lets face it if mothers die so do their babies, may as well save one person.
Do you think that the pro-life parties will stop where you want them too? Once they get their way they won't stop until it is illegal in every circumstance.

So what will this accomplish?, absolutely nothing except killing people, putting them in jail and costing millions in legal expenses.

Worse you will be sentencing to death fully mature beings capable of thinking, reason, emotions and empathy to save some cells or partially formed bodies. There is nothing else there!

[Enoch]

Darbyh25 wrote: puedo ir al baño? Si...si quieres.

But, on the original post. Overturning Roe v Wade (as much as I hope it does not happen), is not about outlawing abortion nationwide. It is about allowing states to make the decision as to whether or not to allow abortion within their own borders.

[Rhoades]

Geeze, if it means that much to you to kill some babies, then you're better off in Canada and Mexico.

[Enoch]

Rhoades wrote: Geeze, if it means that much to you to kill some babies, then you're better off in Canada and Mexico. Having an abortion isn't what the debate is about. What it is about is having the right to make the decision on whether or not to have one.

I know quite a few people who will never have an abortion or leave their girlfriend/wife if she had one...yet, they are pro-choice.

[Rhoades]

Enoch wrote: Rhoades wrote: Geeze, if it means that much to you to kill some babies, then you're better off in Canada and Mexico. Having an abortion isn't what the debate is about. What it is about is having the right to make the decision on whether or not to have one.

I know quite a few people who will never have an abortion or leave their girlfriend/wife if she had one...yet, they are pro-choice.
You incorrectly assume that having an abortion is someone's right, or that someone is entitled to it. One person's rights end where someone else's begin.

[ramashkagromik]

you all say right things, except that the pro-lifers want all abortions made illegal, even the rape victim ones.
I am wondering if the pro-lifers imagine what would happen if all fertilized eggs become babies, many mothers would abandon those children, you would see a "hack" a lot more children in foster homes adn many problems will arise from that as you can imagine. I bet we'd see more child drowning than kitty and puppy drowning that we have nowadays.

[Varyag]

Selfish_Meme wrote: Varyag wrote: I'll support them to the extent that it serves the rational viewpoint - I understand that under rare circumstances abotions can be life-saving or necessary when the woman was impregnated against her will. However to allow women to cull children out of their own stupid inability to pop a pill that night after sx is letting women get away with murder - last time I checked personal responsibility was the foundation of our society, correct me if I'm wrong.
Sometimes birth control is innefective through no ones fault, labelling them 'stupid' really just shows your own ignorance of the process.

No, it shows yours, take 3 common contraceptives, multiply their success rates together in a probablility chain and you'll quickly find we're having roughly 100 times more abortions that allowable under minimum responsibility.

Quote: Also Pro-Lifers even see the morning after pill as abortive (see RU 486, or AllAmericanMan).

It is abortive, but since most women dont even check for pregnancy before popping it there really isn't that much even pro-lifers could do about it

Quote: Abortion is not murder,

Wrong. Knowingly killing off another human being (that is taking its state from alive to dead) constitutes murder, when one willingly does this its called murder. Manslaughter is accidently hitting someone with a car, murder is purposefully doing it. Abortions are done on purpose, therefore abortion is murder.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Abortion isnt going to be swept away with one all-inclusive bill, the first one will usually ban partial-birth abortion, which I'll support, then ban convenience(stupidity) abortions which I'll also support, by the time one gets to medical abortions however I think most people would draw the line, especially if pregnancy is deemed to be a great health risk for the mother, and lets face it if mothers die so do their babies, may as well save one person.
Do you think that the pro-life parties will stop where you want them too?

I know one thing, pro-lifers would need the support/vote of people such as myself to get these kinds of bills through.

Quote: Once they get their way they won't stop until it is illegal in every circumstance.

:roll: whatever

Quote: Worse you will be sentencing to death fully mature beings capable of thinking, reason, emotions and empathy to save some cells or partially formed bodies. There is nothing else there!

Those beings are just a human as you or me - I'm not ignorant - I'm not an out of sight, out of mind person, I want to live in a society that does not condone this form of genocidal barbarism.

[Varyag]

ramashkagromik wrote: you all say right things, except that the pro-lifers want all abortions made illegal, even the rape victim ones.
I am wondering if the pro-lifers imagine what would happen if all fertilized eggs become babies, many mothers would abandon those children, you would see a "hack" a lot more children in foster homes adn many problems will arise from that as you can imagine. I bet we'd see more child drowning than kitty and puppy drowning that we have nowadays.

Ok well then all of you Ukrainians just abort yourselves to death and we'll keep healthy babies here, problem solved.

[Selfish_Meme]

Varyag wrote: Quote: Sometimes birth control is innefective through no ones fault, labelling them 'stupid' really just shows your own ignorance of the process.
No, it shows yours, take 3 common contraceptives, multiply their success rates together in a probablility chain and you'll quickly find we're having roughly 100 times more abortions that allowable under minimum responsibility. The pill can make people physically ill or have other symptoms, so many don't or can't take it, condoms fail, and sometimes fail without giving much indication of it. It only takes once, you can't go popping morning after pills every time you have sex. After all that the is always some uncertainty in planning. While I make no claim that all the abortions are because of failures in contraception, it is innapropriate to label them all stupid.

Varyag wrote: Quote: Also Pro-Lifers even see the morning after pill as abortive (see RU 486, or AllAmericanMan).

It is abortive, but since most women dont even check for pregnancy before popping it there really isn't that much even pro-lifers could do about it. Then why pursue the illegality of abortions, it's not as if you are going to stop it. Plus they would just outlaw its sale, thereby effectively stopping it.

Varyag wrote: Quote: Abortion is not murder,

Wrong. Knowingly killing off another human being (that is taking its state from alive to dead) constitutes murder, when one willingly does this its called murder. Manslaughter is accidently hitting someone with a car, murder is purposefully doing it. Abortions are done on purpose, therefore abortion is murder. There is no malice involved, so therefore is not murder, I gave you the link to the legal definition.

Varyag wrote: Quote: Worse you will be sentencing to death fully mature beings capable of thinking, reason, emotions and empathy to save some cells or partially formed bodies. There is nothing else there!

Those beings are just a human as you or me - I'm not ignorant - I'm not an out of sight, out of mind person, I want to live in a society that does not condone this form of genocidal barbarism.
Can they think, feel, remember, empathise, communicate? No they can't. Why is that an important distinction? Think about why toddlers can' t drink, drive or own firearms. Why don't toddlers have the same rights as adults? Because they are not the same! Killing a fetus is not and cannot be equal to killing an adult. The law is arbitrary, it draws a line in the sand and says this is a child and this is an adult, that line is drawn after birth, for no other reason than that there needs to be a line.

[Varyag]

Selfish_Meme wrote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Sometimes birth control is innefective through no ones fault, labelling them 'stupid' really just shows your own ignorance of the process.
No, it shows yours, take 3 common contraceptives, multiply their success rates together in a probablility chain and you'll quickly find we're having roughly 100 times more abortions that allowable under minimum responsibility. The pill can make people physically ill or have other symptoms, so many don't or can't take it, condoms fail, and sometimes fail without giving much indication of it. It only takes once, you can't go popping morning after pills every time you have sex. After all that the is always some uncertainty in planning. While I make no claim that all the abortions are because of failures in contraception, it is innapropriate to label them all stupid.

I'm sorry but the result of that probability chain is all you'll get from me or any other person sane of mind. The bottom line is that in the case of 99% of abortions we're talking about women who willingly engaged in sexual activity and willingly did not take the proper contraceptive precautions. Now if we were living in the third world where most people are uneducated and too poor to even afford contraception I may have let it fly, but we live in the West - where both education and contraception are universaly accessible. In essense what I'm trying to say is - children should not have to pay for the stupidity of their parents.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Also Pro-Lifers even see the morning after pill as abortive (see RU 486, or AllAmericanMan).

It is abortive, but since most women dont even check for pregnancy before popping it there really isn't that much even pro-lifers could do about it. Then why pursue the illegality of abortions, it's not as if you are going to stop it. Plus they would just outlaw its sale, thereby effectively stopping it.

Illigalizing abortion will have the same effect as illigalizing drugs, the harsher the penalties, the fewer people (women) will do it. I'm mainly concerned with the illigalization of surgical abortions and those done past the first day or two of pregnancy.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Abortion is not murder,

Wrong. Knowingly killing off another human being (that is taking its state from alive to dead) constitutes murder, when one willingly does this its called murder. Manslaughter is accidently hitting someone with a car, murder is purposefully doing it. Abortions are done on purpose, therefore abortion is murder. There is no malice involved, so therefore is not murder, I gave you the link to the legal definition.

Malice is purposeful intention to harm and kill, which is what abortion is to the babies the mother purposefully harms and kills.

Quote: Varyag wrote: Quote: Worse you will be sentencing to death fully mature beings capable of thinking, reason, emotions and empathy to save some cells or partially formed bodies. There is nothing else there!

Those beings are just a human as you or me - I'm not ignorant - I'm not an out of sight, out of mind person, I want to live in a society that does not condone this form of genocidal barbarism.
Can they think, feel, remember, empathise, communicate?

Yes, even early on the fetus will exibit human behaviour, on the 10th week for example it will begin sucking its thumb, classic early human behaviour.

Quote: Why is that an important distinction? Think about why toddlers can' t drink, drive or own firearms.

Think about why killing a toddler is still murder.

Quote: Why don't toddlers have the same rights as adults? Because they are not the same! Killing a fetus is not and cannot be equal to killing an adult. The law is arbitrary, it draws a line in the sand and says this is a child and this is an adult, that line is drawn after birth, for no other reason than that there needs to be a line.

Silly leftist, firearms is a responsibility law, the right to life is universal.