Political Crossfire Forums

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8258

Comrade Dave wrote: Guys, take it all out on me. He's a budding socialist.

That would be the Socialist thing to do... to punish you for his short-comings.

Comrade Dave wrote: Cut him some slack. Now lets debate this legitimately.

Already done; scroll up to see where we ripped his arguments multiple new ones.

Comrade Dave wrote: That capitalist thread was becoming an eye sore.

Maybe for you... I love the opportunity to shoot down the local Marxist.

Comrade Dave wrote: "Give them to me while they're young and they're mine forever." :twisted:

That should be the slogan of government... it reminds me of slavery.

Comrade Dave · Joined: 09 Jul 2006 Posts: 1342

Tough day at the office? :)

ramashkagromik · Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 233 Location: Kiev

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8258

Comrade Dave wrote: Tough day at the office? :)

Not really. Only one class today, but more reading than expected. Just enjoying my time here. 8:)

Iriemon · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 621 Location: Miami

LostSoul3412 wrote: [
...
First of all, one company can never hold a total monopoly over an entire market without government support.
...

Why not?

chris_mthomas · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 561 Location: Shenzhen

Yeah, let's be like Sweden: have an insanely high tax rate, 15% unemployment, and less than 2% growth.

There's a reason why the Moderate Party won a week ago. Social Democracies just don't work.

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 15530 Location: Toronto

chris_mthomas wrote: Yeah, let's be like Sweden: have an insanely high tax rate, 15% unemployment, and less than 2% growth.

There's a reason why the Moderate Party won a week ago. Social Democracies just don't work.
Try 5.8% unemployment and 3.6% growth. The Moderate Party would still be considered leftist by American standards.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7712 Location: The Great Satan

ramashkagromik wrote: It should switch to the economic system of that like Norways, Sweden's, and Denmark's. High Taxes for the rich, and i mean high, 30-50%, free health insurence, free education, living subsidies for the poor.
The point of this economic system is to concentrate the money in one place, the government, for a more efficient spending.
Think of it like a big company controlling the whole market, it can really use the efficientcy on the supply meeting the demand and nothing going to waste like overproduction.
The government would own all major companies like electricity, water, and perhaps even oil.
An established aristocracy bought with votes is no better than a naturally occurring one bought with currency.

I prefer Europe's more socialistic policies and they seemed to have worked. The proposition that every country in the world that isn't as Capitalist as America will "shrink," is ludicrous. While laissez-faire policies would spur European economic growth, low poverty, low crime, and positive domestic conditions overall are far more important. It's when such socialist policies hinder economic growth to the point of creating an oligarchy and creating more poverty than there was to begin with when they become a problem. What you propose is basically outright Authoritarian Socialism. It has failed multiple times already and it will fail again if another attempt is made to establish it. And if European economies (such as that of France) don't obey moderate practices endorsed by mainstream economists and neoliberals, there will be disastrous economic consequences.

chris_mthomas · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 561 Location: Shenzhen

Quote: Try 5.8% unemployment and 3.6% growth.
The 15% unemployment figure is the real rate. The 5.8% jobless rate as advertised by the government doesn't include people of state welfare programs in its employment figures.

Read:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/c18430e6-fc0b-11da-b1a1-0000779e2340.html

And as for growth, both of us were wrong. I was sure that the growth rate was less than 2% a year, but as it turns out the number is 2.7%. I guess I was thinking of some other Scandinavian country.

(https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html)

Norbert · Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Washigton State

OK, 1st off, is the poster really from the Ukraine? If so why is he saying "I think the US should have a better economic system?"...
Also, what, specifically do u guys think Taking away eveyones money AND never taxing anyone is supposed 2 accomplish? HOw is government supposed 2 funciton without taxation (don't tell me it's not, Anarchist idiots need not apply)... Finally, is there NO ONE on these boards who is not a budding anarchist OR, alternatively, redder than the underside of Satan's skin????

Tek · Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 64

Should there be no system at all for our economy.
( Besides ABC about gave me a heart attack explaining why The Dow jones just accomplished beating there record. I will give you a hint it is about the lowering price of gas and how consumers can buy more productions.)

Tek · Joined: 04 Oct 2006 Posts: 64

Norbert wrote: OK, 1st off, is the poster really from the Ukraine? If so why is he saying "I think the US should have a better economic system?"...
Also, what, specifically do u guys think Taking away eveyones money AND never taxing anyone is supposed 2 accomplish? HOw is government supposed 2 funciton without taxation (don't tell me it's not, Anarchist idiots need not apply)... Finally, is there NO ONE on these boards who is not a budding anarchist OR, alternatively, redder than the underside of Satan's skin????

Hmmm I do not think it matters if he is from the Ukraine because you should listen of the idea's of other to help you make your own. Obviously we got a person whom hates but know little of the enemy which he has chosen to be. Little Advice my good friend when you want to lead a movement know your enemy better than your friend. Communism only works in a perfect world along with Capitalism, Socialism, Anarchism etc.
BTW I don't understand anything past your anger words of "finally" Mr.McCarthy.

Buhness · Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 354 Location: Knoxville, TN

ramashkagromik wrote: It should switch to the economic system of that like Norways, Sweden's, and Denmark's. High Taxes for the rich, and i mean high, 30-50%, free health insurence, free education, living subsidies for the poor.
The point of this economic system is to concentrate the money in one place, the government, for a more efficient spending.
Think of it like a big company controlling the whole market, it can really use the efficientcy on the supply meeting the demand and nothing going to waste like overproduction.
The government would own all major companies like electricity, water, and perhaps even oil.
I think you have some good ideas:

Progressive taxes.
Universal healthcare.
Public education.

However, I don't think major companies should me nationalized. That's a bit drastic.

Atlas Bergeron · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 2680 Location: Reality

Iriemon wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: [
...
First of all, one company can never hold a total monopoly over an entire market without government support.
...

Why not?

They can, but they have to do it by having better technology than all competiitors. Thus they can only do so if they utilize resources better than anybody else is willing to do and thus they increase the standard of living by lowering prices.

It is thus good for everybody that buisnesses are unrestricted and competition is allowed. If the company is inadequate and/or someone is better, they will be replaced automatically within a free market.

Atlas Bergeron · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 2680 Location: Reality

Tek wrote: Norbert wrote: OK, 1st off, is the poster really from the Ukraine? If so why is he saying "I think the US should have a better economic system?"...
Also, what, specifically do u guys think Taking away eveyones money AND never taxing anyone is supposed 2 accomplish? HOw is government supposed 2 funciton without taxation (don't tell me it's not, Anarchist idiots need not apply)... Finally, is there NO ONE on these boards who is not a budding anarchist OR, alternatively, redder than the underside of Satan's skin????

Hmmm I do not think it matters if he is from the Ukraine because you should listen of the idea's of other to help you make your own. Obviously we got a person whom hates but know little of the enemy which he has chosen to be. Little Advice my good friend when you want to lead a movement know your enemy better than your friend. Communism only works in a perfect world along with Capitalism, Socialism, Anarchism etc.
BTW I don't understand anything past your anger words of "finally" Mr.McCarthy.
I'm sorry? A system which is based off the facts of reality and the identity of man will work best.
As far as I have seen that is capitalism. Your arguments have no supporting evidence.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Iriemon wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: [
...
First of all, one company can never hold a total monopoly over an entire market without government support.
...

Why not? Can you name a company that's done this without state support? Oh and I truly hope you don't say Rockefeller because I've done enough research on him to be his biographer, :lol:. What can I say he's one of my heroes.

Atlas Bergeron · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 2680 Location: Reality

LetsGetReal wrote: Iriemon wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: [
...
First of all, one company can never hold a total monopoly over an entire market without government support.
...

Why not? Can you name a company that's done this without state support? Oh and I truly hope you don't say Rockefeller because I've done enough research on him to be his biographer, :lol:. What can I say he's one of my heroes.
The first aluminum company ever had a complete monopoly... you should read its case some time.

They were broken up by a trust bust becuase they were "utilized resources" better than any other company--and they were thrown in jail. The only thing that was proven was that they beat everyone who went against them through pure technological and efficient advantage (i.e. no public official bribery, etc.) It was the biggest atrocity ever commited within the united states.

LeopardPM · Joined: 21 Oct 2005 Posts: 1226 Location: Arizona

Atlas Bergeron wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Iriemon wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: [
...
First of all, one company can never hold a total monopoly over an entire market without government support.
...

Why not? Can you name a company that's done this without state support? Oh and I truly hope you don't say Rockefeller because I've done enough research on him to be his biographer, :lol:. What can I say he's one of my heroes.
The first aluminum company ever had a complete monopoly... you should read its case some time.

They were broken up by a trust bust becuase they were "utilized resources" better than any other company--and they were thrown in jail. The only thing that was proven was that they beat everyone who went against them through pure technological and efficient advantage (i.e. no public official bribery, etc.) It was the biggest atrocity ever commited within the united states.

its not a monopoly if the business wins market share (even total market share) by choice of the market itself! Thats like saying Tiger Woods has a monopoly on being the best at golf, he may be the best'''right now... and he might continue to be, but no one is forcing or restraining others from trying to be better.

THEXRATED · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2848 Location: Tuonelan Virrat

Changing the economic system in the US to allow social programs similar to Scandinavia would be very difficult, if not impossible in the current climate.

The US has very strong corporate lobbies that have huge influence on government policies - meaning a more corporate-driven democracy than one driven by people. In federal elections people are given very limited choices to vote, usually chosen by elites from two major parties.

Seperation of powers and influental corporate lobby guarantees that any major reform will have huge difficulties going through the Congress. A good example of this is Clinton's Health Care Plan.

This said, I also do not think that the Scandinavian system would be that effective in the US, at least not on a federal level, but could be somewhat useful on a state level.

Norbert · Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Washigton State

Hmmm I do not think it matters if he is from the Ukraine because you should listen of the idea's of other to help you make your own. Obviously we got a person whom hates but know little of the enemy which he has chosen to be. Little Advice my good friend when you want to lead a movement know your enemy better than your friend. Communism only works in a perfect world along with Capitalism, Socialism, Anarchism etc.
BTW I don't understand anything past your anger words of "finally" Mr.McCarthy.[/quote]

Ummmmm... first of all, I wan't trying 2 be "angry" particularly at the Ukraine or Urainians (spelling)
second "know little of the enemy which he has chosen to be" plz explain.
FINALLY what is ur problem with the word finally, why did u call me mcarthy, and when I allude 2 Satan, I am not comparing Communists and satanists... no real "anger" here...(maybe some confusion, though)...