Political Crossfire Forums

[dtwizzy2k5]

Here is one of the many things that doesnt make sense in Islam....

A. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet
B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.
C. Islam prohibits eating pork.

This makes no sense whatsoever!
Can somebody please attempt at explaining this?

[Muslima]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Here is one of the many things that doesnt make sense in Islam....

A. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet
B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.
C. Islam prohibits eating pork.

This makes no sense whatsoever!
Can somebody please attempt at explaining this?

first I am really looking forward to see your reply in the contradiction thread!

A.what is wrong in seeing Jesus as a prophet? he was, is and will be.........jews don't consider jesus as a prophet or god, so is their religion non-sense? a belief like this doesn't make a whole religion senseless!

B. what has this to do with Islam?
C. this has been discussed earlier in this forum, in Islam pigs are filthy creatures, so eating their meat is not healthy.......I suggest you read some articles about Islam and pork......

May I ask you a favor?
I hope you try to search and read before posting things that might make you look "anti-islamic", please.....

[dtwizzy2k5]

Muslima wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Here is one of the many things that doesnt make sense in Islam....

A. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet
B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.
C. Islam prohibits eating pork.

This makes no sense whatsoever!
Can somebody please attempt at explaining this?

first I am really looking forward to see your reply in the contradiction thread!

A.what is wrong in seeing Jesus as a prophet? he was, is and will be.........jews don't consider jesus as a prophet or god, so is their religion non-sense? a belief like this doesn't make a whole religion senseless!

B. what has this to do with Islam?
C. this has been discussed earlier in this forum, in Islam pigs are filthy creatures, so eating their meat is not healthy.......I suggest you read some articles about Islam and pork......

May I ask you a favor?
I hope you try to search and read before posting things that might make you look "anti-islamic", please.....

Apparently you completely missed the point. Let me dumb it down for you a little bit....
How can muslims consider pork dirty when a prophet said it wasnt?

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Muslima wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: Here is one of the many things that doesnt make sense in Islam....

A. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet
B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.
C. Islam prohibits eating pork.

This makes no sense whatsoever!
Can somebody please attempt at explaining this?

first I am really looking forward to see your reply in the contradiction thread!

A.what is wrong in seeing Jesus as a prophet? he was, is and will be.........jews don't consider jesus as a prophet or god, so is their religion non-sense? a belief like this doesn't make a whole religion senseless!

B. what has this to do with Islam?
C. this has been discussed earlier in this forum, in Islam pigs are filthy creatures, so eating their meat is not healthy.......I suggest you read some articles about Islam and pork......

May I ask you a favor?
I hope you try to search and read before posting things that might make you look "anti-islamic", please.....

Apparently you completely missed the point. Let me dumb it down for you a little bit....
How can muslims consider pork dirty when a prophet said it wasnt?

Jesus and his disciples kept the Jewish dietary laws until in the bible Acts 10 I believe. Maybe they don't believe that this "vision" from heaven was real?

[futurdoc]

ok alsalamo alekom to muslims , hope all the non mulsims r fine:

ok let me check my IQ here dtwizzy2k5 :) just to make sure i have got your question right u r saying that we believe that Jesus is a prophet so we have to obey what he orders us to do and since he had ordered us to eat pig meat , ham pork watever ( that is mentioned in the new testemnt bible) then why we they say that pork is prohibted in islam then we r infront of a contradiction here , right is that wat u mean ?

I hope i have got your question right because i will respond to it the way i understood it ,

Quote: A. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet

point A is totaly right so lemme just have a small comment on it , yes we believe he had been sent to his people with one original message and that is " the true God is only ONE , Worship Him Alone and keep his commandments " so wat he orderd his people at his time was not from anywhere but Allah

and God is fair and Just , He will not require something from the israelites and something else from the Arabs or the Americans or the Indians , He is God of All people in the world , He is the creator of all , IT IS EVEDENT THEREFORE , THAT GOD WANTS MAN TO BE NOTHING BUT SUMBIT TO HIM ( IN ARABIC IT MEANS BE MUSLIM TO HIM ) AND FOLLOW HIS LAWS AND LEGESLATIONS


Quote: B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.

point B : jesus said???!!! where , Ah u mean jesus said in the bible , but to my knowldge in the bible jesus also said in mathew chapter 5 : 17 " Do not think i have come to abolish the law or the Prophets Quote: I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFIL THEM " so jesus came with a very clear mission , not to change or null or void laws but FULFILS them and keep them as they were , and if you read the commentations of the christian scholars on this verse you will see that they said that jesus said so because the isrealits were so worried of him that he claims to be a prophet inorder to change the old laws so jesus told them not to worry , i will not change the laws that had been given to you since the time of moses " i.e the old testment " so how come jesus is then changing the old law clearly about pig eating ??so can i call that a contradiction ? or simply say that we dont get the saying of jesus from the bible as we believe that it had been changed and corrupted a long time ago and thats why there was a need for another FINALunichangable revelation which is islam . so my point here is that we dont take the bible as a source of teaching although we believe that there was an original bible "INGEEL" once had be revealed to jesus .

and plz check LEVITICUS 11:7-8 and DEUTERONOMY 14:8 with is a clear law that pork is prohibited in the christian bible .

and obove that those who eat the flesh of pigs are referred to by God as " rebellious people , who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations " Isaiah 65:1-4
so God all of a once changes this ?!

Quote: C. Islam prohibits eating pork.

yes , The prohibition of the pork was mentioned in the Holy Qur'an's verses
(He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits - then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful) (chapter 2 verse no: 173)

Forbidden to you (your food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...."( chapter5 :verse no: 3)

(Say: I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine, for it is an abomination or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's. But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, thy Lord is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful).(chapter 6..verse no: 145).)

(He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful). (The Bee's Chapter...verse no: 115)

<<<a careful examination of the scriptures indicates that the early New Testament church continued the Old Testament practice of observing the dietary laws of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. The words of Jesus Christ and Peter as well as the writings of Paul all support this conclusion>>>this was written in a research made by the biblestudy organization

now back to science which is totaly supported in islam if u want me to explain to you the harmful reasults of eating such unclean food from the medical point of view it would be fun for me " i like medical talks :)" or if u want to read it elsewhere its up to u

thanx for reading

[dtwizzy2k5]

futurdoc wrote:
Quote: B. Jesus said (and i paraphrase) "its not what you put into your body but what comes out of your body thats important", meaning that the old Jewish laws of pork, for example, were established as null and void.

point B : jesus said???!!! where , Ah u mean jesus said in the bible , but to my knowldge in the bible jesus also said in mathew chapter 5 : 17 " Do not think i have come to abolish the law or the Prophets Quote: I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFIL THEM " so jesus came with a very clear mission , not to change or null or void laws but FULFILS them and keep them as they were , and if you read the commentations of the christian scholars on this verse you will see that they said that jesus said so because the isrealits were so worried of him that he claims to be a prophet inorder to change the old laws so jesus told them not to worry , i will not change the laws that had been given to you since the time of moses " i.e the old testment " so how come jesus is then changing the old law clearly about pig eating ??so can i call that a contradiction ? or simply say that we dont get the saying of jesus from the bible as we believe that it had been changed and corrupted a long time ago and thats why there was a need for another FINALunichangable revelation which is islam . so my point here is that we dont take the bible as a source of teaching although we believe that there was an original bible "INGEEL" once had be revealed to jesus .


Youre not honestly arguing that Christianity doesnt allow Christians to eat pork, are you? I mean, there IS a reason why every Christian out there eats pork, isnt there?

"And he [Jesus] called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:10-11)

Quote: and plz check LEVITICUS 11:7-8 and DEUTERONOMY 14:8 with is a clear law that pork is prohibited in the christian bible .


Those are Old Testament books which were effectively nullified by Christ's teachings. Nice try, though.

[futurdoc]

first i know it is from the old testment , i just posted them for u to see the contadiction on how jesus calims that he didn't come to change the law and then the new testment says u can eat pork

and true i know that THE IS a reason why christians eat poks know , simply cuz the church says so and i dont disagree with that but how come this is not considered changing in the law

and NO, not every christian out there eats pork , many christians says that pork is forbidden ( i know some in person ) and i have told u to go check the intense research the bible study organization had done as they needed evidences to support their prohibition for pork

and i think u r astraying a little bit of the topic u established here , u said there is a contradiction in islam as we believe in jesus and we dont follow him though , but i have answered u in my previous post that we dont take the bible as a source of teaching in islam although we believe that there was an original bible "INGEEL" once had be revealed to jesus simple as it is .

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote:

Those are Old Testament books which were effectively nullified by Christ's teachings. Nice try, though.


This is not true.

MAtthew 5:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


He did not nullify the Old Testament. The reason that burnt offerings and other things are no longer practiced has more to do with the destruction of the second temple and that alot of the converts to Christianity were gentiles and were not familiar with all of the Jewish laws that they would be bound to.


The reason Christians do not feel bound to Jewish dietary laws is this:

Acts 10:

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"



In short, Peter had a vision after the death of Jesus (it was not part of his Earthly ministry) that things did not have to conform to Jewish dietary laws or one did not have to be a Jew to be considered "clean"

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote:
In short, Peter had a vision after the death of Jesus (it was not part of his Earthly ministry) that things did not have to conform to Jewish dietary laws or one did not have to be a Jew to be considered "clean"

Lol, so you agree with me that Christians can eat pork. For the purpose of this thread, there is no argument here between us.

[dtwizzy2k5]

futurdoc wrote: first i know it is from the old testment , i just posted them for u to see the contadiction on how jesus calims that he didn't come to change the law and then the new testment says u can eat pork

and true i know that THE IS a reason why christians eat poks know , simply cuz the church says so and i dont disagree with that but how come this is not considered changing in the law

and NO, not every christian out there eats pork , many christians says that pork is forbidden ( i know some in person ) and i have told u to go check the intense research the bible study organization had done as they needed evidences to support their prohibition for pork

and i think u r astraying a little bit of the topic u established here , u said there is a contradiction in islam as we believe in jesus and we dont follow him though , but i have answered u in my previous post that we dont take the bible as a source of teaching in islam although we believe that there was an original bible "INGEEL" once had be revealed to jesus simple as it is .

Firstly, Jesus didnt contradict himself. When he said "i have not come to abolish the law" i think he was referring to the fact that even though God will not judge you based on your works that doesnt mean you should throw away all the commandments and go around killing and robbing people. I would hardly consider allowing porkchops to be "abolishing the law".
And secondly, it appears that you just simply dont take the bible as a source of teaching. Why is that, if i may ask?

[TheTME]

What I am saying is that them choosing to not eat pork is not a contradiction to what christians say Jesus taught in the bible.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

If I may add to this discussion by providing a link on the topic being discussed.

THE SOCIAL PROBLEMS OF RELIGION
Quote: Religion achieves its highest social ministry when it has least connection with the secular institutions of society. In past ages, since social reforms were largely confined to the moral realms, religion did not have to adjust its attitude to extensive changes in economic and political systems. The chief problem of religion was the endeavor to replace evil with good within the existing social order of political and economic culture. Religion has thus indirectly tended to perpetuate the established order of society, to foster the maintenance of the existent type of civilization.

But religion should not be directly concerned either with the creation of new social orders or with the preservation of old ones. True religion does oppose violence as a technique of social evolution, but it does not oppose the intelligent efforts of society to adapt its usages and adjust its institutions to new economic conditions and cultural requirements.

Religion did approve the occasional social reforms of past centuries, but in the twentieth century it is of necessity called upon to face adjustment to extensive and continuing social reconstruction. Conditions of living alter so rapidly that institutional modifications must be greatly accelerated, and religion must accordingly quicken its adaptation to this new and ever-changing social order.


THE FAITH OF JESUS
Quote: Jesus did not cling to faith in God as would a struggling soul at war with the universe and at death grips with a hostile and sinful world; he did not resort to faith merely as a consolation in the midst of difficulties or as a comfort in threatened despair; faith was not just an illusory compensation for the unpleasant realities and the sorrows of living. In the very face of all the natural difficulties and the temporal contradictions of mortal existence, he experienced the tranquillity of supreme and unquestioned trust in God and felt the tremendous thrill of living, by faith, in the very presence of the heavenly Father. And this triumphant faith was a living experience of actual spirit attainment. Jesus' great contribution to the values of human experience was not that he revealed so many new ideas about the Father in heaven, but rather that he so magnificently and humanly demonstrated a new and higher type of living faith in God. Never on all the worlds of this universe, in the life of any one mortal, did God ever become such a living reality as in the human experience of Jesus of Nazareth.
~snip~
Theology may fix, formulate, define, and dogmatize faith, but in the human life of Jesus faith was personal, living, original, spontaneous, and purely spiritual. This faith was not reverence for tradition nor a mere intellectual belief which he held as a sacred creed, but rather a sublime experience and a profound conviction which securely held him. His faith was so real and all-encompassing that it absolutely swept away any spiritual doubts and effectively destroyed every conflicting desire. Nothing was able to tear him away from the spiritual anchorage of this fervent, sublime, and undaunted faith. Even in the face of apparent defeat or in the throes of disappointment and threatening despair, he calmly stood in the divine presence free from fear and fully conscious of spiritual invincibility. Jesus enjoyed the invigorating assurance of the possession of unflinching faith, and in each of life's trying situations he unfailingly exhibited an unquestioning loyalty to the Father's will. And this superb faith was undaunted even by the cruel and crushing threat of an ignominious death.

Perhaps the words above will lend some clarity to this discussion ?

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote: What I am saying is that them choosing to not eat pork is not a contradiction to what christians say Jesus taught in the bible.

:!oops: My bad, i misinterpreted what you wrote. But explain this please:

"And he [Jesus] called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:10-11)

[futurdoc]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: futurdoc wrote: first i know it is from the old testment , i just posted them for u to see the contadiction on how jesus calims that he didn't come to change the law and then the new testment says u can eat pork

and true i know that THE IS a reason why christians eat poks know , simply cuz the church says so and i dont disagree with that but how come this is not considered changing in the law

and NO, not every christian out there eats pork , many christians says that pork is forbidden ( i know some in person ) and i have told u to go check the intense research the bible study organization had done as they needed evidences to support their prohibition for pork

and i think u r astraying a little bit of the topic u established here , u said there is a contradiction in islam as we believe in jesus and we dont follow him though , but i have answered u in my previous post that we dont take the bible as a source of teaching in islam although we believe that there was an original bible "INGEEL" once had be revealed to jesus simple as it is .

Firstly, Jesus didnt contradict himself. When he said "i have not come to abolish the law" i think he was referring to the fact that even though God will not judge you based on your works that doesnt mean you should throw away all the commandments and go around killing and robbing people. I would hardly consider allowing porkchops to be "abolishing the law".
And secondly, it appears that you just simply dont take the bible as a source of teaching. Why is that, if i may ask?

ok i think there r 2 major issues here in ur post
issue 1: lemme first tell you what the christian theologians said "At Mt. Sinai, God gave Moses not only the Ten Commandments but also many divine instructions about personal behavior, methods of worship and lifestyle choices. These divine instructions came to be known as the "law of Moses" even though they were actually "the law of God given to Moses."
So as we see from this explianation by many christian theologians is that moses was given
1-the ten commandments
2-divine instructions about personal behaviour
3-divine instructions about methods of worship
4-divine instructions about lifestyle choices
and we muslims totaly agree upon this fact since one of the major roles for the messengers and prophets is to take such tasks to convey such divine instructions to mankind
so the issue of pork eating can we be able to put it under one of the 4 categories ??!!
eitherIN 1-the ten commandments?
OR 2-divine instructions about personal behaviour?
OR 3-divine instructions about methods of worship?
OR 4-divine instructions about lifestyle choices ?
as these are the major categories in the laws of the old testment
yes ofcourse we can say it is part of the LAW since the order was given in LEVITICUS 11:7-8 and DEUTERONOMY 14:8 so we put it under the divine instructions about lifestyle choices
so it is a part of the law that had been established in the old testment
THEN actually When Jesus Christ lived his physical life, many often forget he was reared as a devout Jew.
and After Jesus' birth, Joseph and Mary observed the seven-day purification period for women, and also had Jesus circumcised on the eighth day (Luke 2:21-23),
so they followed the law
NOW here comes ur words
Quote: I would hardly consider allowing porkchops to be "abolishing the law".
IT IS a part of the law like i have proved to you above from the words of the christian theologians

Quote: When he said "i have not come to abolish the law"i think he was referring to the fact that even though God will not judge you based on your works that doesnt mean you should throw away all the commandments and go around killing and robbing people.
I dont think it is quite the right intrpetations of the verse because i would let the next verses answer why not...
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
wat r the commandents and the practices and commands?? it was moses's laws in the old testment that also stated the prohibition of PORK

ISSUE 2: Quote: And secondly, it appears that you just simply dont take the bible as a source of teaching. Why is that, if i may ask?
simply because we actually inorder to believe and follow a scripture we put it is wat is called an ACID TEST inorder to see if it posses the criteria of a true scripture or not , we try to use reason and logic to find out the existing messages or scriptures may be considered as being inspired by the true god , in doing so we must remember the attributes of God are absolute , that he is and must be unique and all powerful and all knowing creator of the universe

lemme point out some of the criterias
1- the scripture should not attribute to God anything which goes against his unique nature, it should not say for example he got tired of the creation and rested the 7th day or that he regrets and regreting means he made mistakes and false orders ..and alot more in the bible....etc and these un acceptable attributes had been attached to the creator in the bible which contradicts with the true attributes of a creator

2- it should not attribute to any created being anything which pertains only to God. It should not say for example that nay person knowseverything or that any person has the power to do anything and everything or say that a person was more logical that his god like in the story of moses discussing with God in a way showing that Moses was so logic and wise than the furious God

3-The scripture should not attribute major sins to the persons whom God chose for the task of conveying his guidenace cuz this would be like saying that the mesage conveyed was not worthy and the bible unfourtunlty filled with such examples passing through incest , idol whorshiping , adultry , murders were attached to the prophets in the bible and islam explains the us the criteria of the messengers as one of them is that THE PROPHET MUST BE THE BEST OF HIS PEOPLE so poeple would have a trust on hm

4- No part of the scripture should contradict another part " and this is a topic by itself in the bible we shall discuss it later "

5- the scripture supports science , where we find strange calims in the bible about the rabit being callsified into different phylum and class in the animal kingdom and that the earth is Flat

6-the person claiming to have recieved the scripture should be a person who is ompletly honest and trustful . he must be a person who claims no rewards or benifits for himself from poeple

and actually most of the scriptures dont meet these standards.however it can be safely said that the Quran is the only scripture existing which meets thse standards

BUT WE believe that jesus came with the true word of god called Injeel but if u track the history of the current bible u will notice that the first books were written after 400 years after jesus written in hebrew" jesus's language said to be aramiac " and the translation was 2 an unkown auther, and the bible i assure to you that it underwent alterations , additions and omisions and this is not only said by us muslims but guess wat by the COMMITTEE charged with revising the holy bible (revised standard version) . This committee consisted of 32 scholars who served as members of the committe. They secures the review and the counsel of an Advisory Board of 50 representatives of the co-operating denominations.The committe said in the preface to THE HOLY BIBLE (RSV), p.vi: " SOMETIMES it is evident that the text suffered in transmission, but non of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text " and the Committe also said in the same preface , P.vii: "Notes are added which inticate significant variations, additions , or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt.9.34 ; MK 3.16: 7.4 ;LK 24.32 , 51, etc.)."

p.s : i have no intentions to attack the bible in my post but u asked why we dont take the CURRENT bible our source of divine guidance
and since God didn't leave man with no guidance he had sent us his final Book " the quran " as mercy to all mankind

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: What I am saying is that them choosing to not eat pork is not a contradiction to what christians say Jesus taught in the bible.

:!oops: My bad, i misinterpreted what you wrote. But explain this please:

"And he [Jesus] called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:10-11)


Alright, this is easy.


Read in context, the next verses are:

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "




See, this is a lesson on equality. Jesus's poor disciples were not very good with hygiene and the pharisees were calling them pretty much dirty tramps, and Jesus was saying that them not washing before eating was what makes someone unclean or dirty, but to god unclean is what is in your heart, so that it was the Pharisees themselves who were unclean, as we see in the previous verses:

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

[dtwizzy2k5]

My reply to futuredoc:
Is some normal guy coming out of a cave in the desert claiming to have talked to God and writing a book one of the criteria for a "true scripture"? I mean, anybody can write a book. What gives Muhammad any credibility whatsoever?

My reply to TheTME:
I see your point now. When put into context it seems to make sense. But then why have all these generations of Christians eaten pork and why does the church not prohibit it? If pork was prohibited from the beginning, then wouldnt the first Christians have upheld that tradition through all of their later generations? Isnt it possible that maybe Jesus said something of dietary laws that isnt necessarily written in the NT and was passed down through oral tradition?

[cool_chick]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: My reply to futuredoc:
Is some normal guy coming out of a cave in the desert claiming to have talked to God and writing a book one of the criteria for a "true scripture"? I mean, anybody can write a book. What gives Muhammad any credibility whatsoever?


Can't the same be said of Moses and his 10 commandments?

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: My reply to futuredoc:
Is some normal guy coming out of a cave in the desert claiming to have talked to God and writing a book one of the criteria for a "true scripture"? I mean, anybody can write a book. What gives Muhammad any credibility whatsoever?

My reply to TheTME:
I see your point now. When put into context it seems to make sense. But then why have all these generations of Christians eaten pork and why does the church not prohibit it? If pork was prohibited from the beginning, then wouldnt the first Christians have upheld that tradition through all of their later generations? Isnt it possible that maybe Jesus said something of dietary laws that isnt necessarily written in the NT and was passed down through oral tradition?



No, nothing was said by Jesus. Like I said, Acts 10 focuses around peter, a disciple who was always around Jesus. Peter did not want to eat the different animals because it was contrary to law. If Jesus had alreay told the disciples something different, I am sure he would have chowed down right when he saw the animals. The earliest followers of Jesus upheld the law at first. The reasons early christians ignored kosher is for Peter's vision and that it wouldn't discourage gentiles from converting.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: Can't the same be said of Moses and his 10 commandments?


It can be said about pretty much every religion.

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: My reply to futuredoc:
Is some normal guy coming out of a cave in the desert claiming to have talked to God and writing a book one of the criteria for a "true scripture"? I mean, anybody can write a book. What gives Muhammad any credibility whatsoever?

My reply to TheTME:
I see your point now. When put into context it seems to make sense. But then why have all these generations of Christians eaten pork and why does the church not prohibit it? If pork was prohibited from the beginning, then wouldnt the first Christians have upheld that tradition through all of their later generations? Isnt it possible that maybe Jesus said something of dietary laws that isnt necessarily written in the NT and was passed down through oral tradition?



No, nothing was said by Jesus. Like I said, Acts 10 focuses around peter, a disciple who was always around Jesus. Peter did not want to eat the different animals because it was contrary to law. If Jesus had alreay told the disciples something different, I am sure he would have chowed down right when he saw the animals. The earliest followers of Jesus upheld the law at first. The reasons early christians ignored kosher is for Peter's vision and that it wouldn't discourage gentiles from converting.

But why isnt Peter's vision as valid as Jesus's words to Muslims? I mean, Peter practically followed Jesus around everywhere and was as close to him as anybody.