Political Crossfire Forums

[micfranklin]

Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?

[Ek0nomik]

Because we're Godless.

[Aqualung]

micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

[perdidochas]

micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Because despite his faults, he did a very good thing. He discovered the New World for Western society. Kids don't need to learn the bad things about our history. It leads to a sense of malaise and confusion.

micfranklin wrote: Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?

Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.

[perdidochas]

CrossEyedMary wrote: micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

Elementary school kids don't need to learn about all the foibles of historical figures. It ruins history for them. That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people. It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves). IMHO, the Columbus myth is good for elementary school kids. Teach them the sordid details in middle school.

[Brooklyn]

Quote: Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.

I personally think child molestors and rapists should get life sentences. They are giving victims life sentences. Drug offenders get more time than rapists do. Ridiculous IMO.

[BassistVIV]

perdidochas wrote: Because despite his faults, he did a very good thing. He discovered the New World for Western society.
But he didn't discover America. Didn't the Vikings get here way before Columbus did?

Besides, there were Native Americans here way before he was.

Quote: Kids don't need to learn the bad things about our history. It leads to a sense of malaise and confusion.
You're right. We should continue to lie to the children because no one really needs to know the truth. I completely see the logic here :roll:

micfranklin wrote: Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.
Somehow, I don't think it's quite as traumatic for a child molestor to get raped as it is for an 11 year old. Seriously, just kill him and get it over with. There's no use for people who do that kind of stuff.

[foadi]

Brooklyn wrote: Quote: Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.

I personally think child molestors and rapists should get life sentences. They are giving victims life sentences. Drug offenders get more time than rapists do. Ridiculous IMO.
Giving child "molestors" mandatory life sentences would be ridiculous, considering the barbaric age of consent laws that currently exist in most countries.

[perdidochas]

BassistVIV wrote: perdidochas wrote: Because despite his faults, he did a very good thing. He discovered the New World for Western society.
But he didn't discover America. Didn't the Vikings get here way before Columbus did?

Besides, there were Native Americans here way before he was.

1) The Native Americans didn't discover the New World for Western society. I already addressed that point.
2) The Vikings discovered it, but didn't relay it to Western Society. ALso, to some degree, aforementioned Native Americans, kicked their butts out of there.

perdidochas wrote: Kids don't need to learn the bad things about our history. It leads to a sense of malaise and confusion.
You're right. We should continue to lie to the children because no one really needs to know the truth. I completely see the logic here :roll: [/quote]

How is it lying to say the following:
Columbus had the idea to take a shortcut to India.
Columbus got the Spanish queen to sponsor him on this.
He took three ships to do so, the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
He found what are now called the Bahamas in 1492. He called them thet West Indies. From that discovery, he did several more, which led to the discovery of America by Western civilization.

That's not a lie at all. It's a simplification, but what in life isn't a simplification. Heck, in chemistry, most of the time spent is learning about atomic models that we know are untrue, but that are good representations for teaching, as the true models are almost incomprehensible.

BassistVIV wrote: perdidochas wrote: Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.
Somehow, I don't think it's quite as traumatic for a child molestor to get raped as it is for an 11 year old. Seriously, just kill him and get it over with. There's no use for people who do that kind of stuff.

I don't think there is much difference in trauma between the two. Child molestor doesn't mean a rapist. Very few molestors actually rape, in the sense of force, most rape in the sense of seducing someone who can't resist. As I said, though, I have no problem with it. I was just answering what I perceive as the reason that child molestors dont' get enough hard time in prison. I think if more child molestors realized that child molestation=years of homosexual rape, they would reconsider.

[perdidochas]

foadi wrote: Brooklyn wrote: Quote: Because child molestors have a really rough time in prison. It's tantamount to sentencing them to be raped and abused for their whole time in prison. Personally, I think the punishment fits the crime, but not all agree.

I personally think child molestors and rapists should get life sentences. They are giving victims life sentences. Drug offenders get more time than rapists do. Ridiculous IMO.
Giving child "molestors" mandatory life sentences would be ridiculous, considering the barbaric age of consent laws that currently exist in most countries.

Could we agree that molesting pre-pubescent children should be considered for extremely harsh punishment?

[foadi]

perdidochas wrote: Could we agree that molesting pre-pubescent children should be considered for extremely harsh punishment?
Molesting anyone should be considered for extremely harsh punishment.

[micfranklin]

perdidochas wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

Elementary school kids don't need to learn about all the foibles of historical figures. It ruins history for them. That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people. It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves). IMHO, the Columbus myth is good for elementary school kids. Teach them the sordid details in middle school.

Not just elementary schools, but all schools from grades 1-12 in general. My father actually gave me the truth that Columbus was that type of a person. But still, he did end up discovering the area now know as the Caribbean.

[foadi]

micfranklin wrote: But still, he did end up discovering the area now know as the Caribbean.
Nonsense.

[perdidochas]

micfranklin wrote: perdidochas wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

Elementary school kids don't need to learn about all the foibles of historical figures. It ruins history for them. That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people. It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves). IMHO, the Columbus myth is good for elementary school kids. Teach them the sordid details in middle school.

Not just elementary schools, but all schools from grades 1-12 in general. My father actually gave me the truth that Columbus was that type of a person. But still, he did end up discovering the area now know as the Caribbean.

I remember learning about the darker side of history from about 7th grade on. Maybe your teachers were different.

[BassistVIV]

perdidochas wrote: 1) The Native Americans didn't discover the New World for Western society. I already addressed that point.
2) The Vikings discovered it, but didn't relay it to Western Society. ALso, to some degree, aforementioned Native Americans, kicked their butts out of there.

But he didn't discover America. I thought the founding fathers did.

perdidochas wrote: How is it lying to say the following:
Columbus had the idea to take a shortcut to India.Columbus got the Spanish queen to sponsor him on this.
He took three ships to do so, the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
He found what are now called the Bahamas in 1492. He called them thet West Indies. From that discovery, he did several more, which led to the discovery of America by Western civilization.

That's not a lie at all. It's a simplification, but what in life isn't a simplification. Heck, in chemistry, most of the time spent is learning about atomic models that we know are untrue, but that are good representations for teaching, as the true models are almost incomprehensible.
Simplification? Give me a break. That's similar to the "because I said so" argument.

Quote: I don't think there is much difference in trauma between the two. Child molestor doesn't mean a rapist. Very few molestors actually rape, in the sense of force, most rape in the sense of seducing someone who can't resist. As I said, though, I have no problem with it. I was just answering what I perceive as the reason that child molestors dont' get enough hard time in prison. I think if more child molestors realized that child molestation=years of homosexual rape, they would reconsider.
So you're saying that a 40 year old man getting homosexually raped is going to be just as emotionally destroyed as an 11 year old girl getting raped and/or sodomized?

In some cases, maybe, but in most cases, I'm going to have to doubt it. These people are capable of allowing themselves to gain pleasure at the expense of another human being. They are already screwed up in the head. I doubt that getting homosexually raped a couple of times is going to screw them up in the way it would screw up a young girl/boy.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.


Columbus discovered America. That's what his major achievement is, and that's what is taught. You will have an arguement when you see teachers telling students that Columbus was a great, noble hero.

[perdidochas]

BassistVIV wrote: perdidochas wrote: 1) The Native Americans didn't discover the New World for Western society. I already addressed that point.
2) The Vikings discovered it, but didn't relay it to Western Society. ALso, to some degree, aforementioned Native Americans, kicked their butts out of there.

But he didn't discover America. I thought the founding fathers did.

perdidochas wrote: How is it lying to say the following:
Columbus had the idea to take a shortcut to India.Columbus got the Spanish queen to sponsor him on this.
He took three ships to do so, the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
He found what are now called the Bahamas in 1492. He called them thet West Indies. From that discovery, he did several more, which led to the discovery of America by Western civilization.

That's not a lie at all. It's a simplification, but what in life isn't a simplification. Heck, in chemistry, most of the time spent is learning about atomic models that we know are untrue, but that are good representations for teaching, as the true models are almost incomprehensible.
Simplification? Give me a break. That's similar to the "because I said so" argument.

Did you ever learn about the Bohr model of the atom (i.e. the electrons orbiting the nucleus, etc.)? It is very inaccurate, however, it does give a good simplistic overview of how the atom really works. Teaching the good of Columbus without going into the details of his mistreatment of the Indians, etc. is a similar simplification. 8 yr olds don't need to know that syphilis from Columbus' sailors ravaged the native population. They don't need to know that Columbus was a horrible governor, and was cruel to the population. Yes, I support teaching the complex history later, but no good purpose is served by teaching little kids about the shortcomings of their country. People wonder why there is so little civic pride anymore. It's because academics have decided to tear this country apart.

perdidochas wrote: Quote: I don't think there is much difference in trauma between the two. Child molestor doesn't mean a rapist. Very few molestors actually rape, in the sense of force, most rape in the sense of seducing someone who can't resist. As I said, though, I have no problem with it. I was just answering what I perceive as the reason that child molestors dont' get enough hard time in prison. I think if more child molestors realized that child molestation=years of homosexual rape, they would reconsider.
So you're saying that a 40 year old man getting homosexually raped is going to be just as emotionally destroyed as an 11 year old girl getting raped and/or sodomized?

I think there's not much difference. Also, as I said, most molestors aren't raping or sodomizing. As I said, I don't disagree with molestors getting harsh sentences and prison time. I think it is their just punishment.

BassistVIV wrote: In some cases, maybe, but in most cases, I'm going to have to doubt it. These people are capable of allowing themselves to gain pleasure at the expense of another human being. They are already screwed up in the head. I doubt that getting homosexually raped a couple of times is going to screw them up in the way it would screw up a young girl/boy.

Maybe, but I guess all of that is so far from my frame of reference, that I can't accurately decide which is worse. I do agree that violent rape by a molestor would be worse than violent rape of a molestor. Violent rape, though, is a small subset of molestors (and, IMHO, they should be castrated with a butter knife, and then shot).

[Aqualung]

perdidochas wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

Elementary school kids don't need to learn about all the foibles of historical figures.
They don't need to be lied to, either. You don't have to go into an indepth study of his life to realise all the bad things he did. You actually have to LIE to make him seem like a good guy.

Quote: It ruins history for them.
No it doesn't. Lying to them ruins history for them, because then they'll (a) know something that isn't true anyway; (b) be ignorant of their own history; and (c) be shattered when they get to high school or college (hopefully) and learn that everything they know is wrong.

Quote: That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people.
We have plenty of heroes.

Quote: It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves).
It's the best way to produce people who love this country for a real reason, not who love this country because of lies. I love this country. I was never lied to in my history classes. If people are lied to, when they finally realise the truth, they are more likely to stop loving this country than to continue. Loving a country/some one because you have been lied to about their true nature is no love at all. Loving something/some one despite their faults is the best love there is.

[perdidochas]

CrossEyedMary wrote: [ quote="perdidochas"] CrossEyedMary wrote: micfranklin wrote: Why is it, that in our society, schools are allowed to teach students things that aren't true? Columbus, for example: schools teach and praise Christopher Columbus, but in reality he was a slave driver and a ruthless conqueror.

Also, how is it that people let other s**t go, like how some child molesters only get probation or a short prison sentence instead of a good 50 years behind bars?
Because schools are there to make good, unquestioning little american citizens. We can't question what this nation was founded upon. If we know that it is founded upon a slave driver and ruthless conqueror, what else will we begin to question?

That being said, I have NEVER (that I know of) had an experience like the one you have described. Columbus has always been described how he was.

Elementary school kids don't need to learn about all the foibles of historical figures.
They don't need to be lied to, either. You don't have to go into an indepth study of his life to realise all the bad things he did. You actually have to LIE to make him seem like a good guy.[/quote]

Did you read what I posted about what kids are taught about Columbus. What in it is a lie? It is not a lie to say what Columbus did without mentioning every detail of his life. His main accomplishment was finding the New World for Western Civilization. Is that a lie?



[quote="CrossEyedMary"] CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: It ruins history for them.
No it doesn't. Lying to them ruins history for them, because then they'll (a) know something that isn't true anyway; (b) be ignorant of their own history; and (c) be shattered when they get to high school or college (hopefully) and learn that everything they know is wrong.

I liked history before it was taken over by liberal academics who would rather savage history than teach the good points.

CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people.
We have plenty of heroes.

Name one that hasn't been savaged in one way or another.

CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves).
It's the best way to produce people who love this country for a real reason, not who love this country because of lies. I love this country. I was never lied to in my history classes. If people are lied to, when they finally realise the truth, they are more likely to stop loving this country than to continue. Loving a country/some one because you have been lied to about their true nature is no love at all. Loving something/some one despite their faults is the best love there is.

I don't view just telling the good points to young kids as a lie. Why should young kids have to be confronted with the reality that Columbus had slaves, etc. It makes no sense to teach them that at a young age.

[Aqualung]

perdidochas wrote: Did you read what I posted about what kids are taught about Columbus.
Yes. The number of people, though, who I've talked to who have gotten exactly the same lesson you just wrote about felt lied to when they realised the truth. The rest of the people I have talked to who didn't know the truth were actually lied to, ie, told things that were 100% false.

Quote: [quote="CrossEyedMary"] CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: It ruins history for them.
No it doesn't. Lying to them ruins history for them, because then they'll (a) know something that isn't true anyway; (b) be ignorant of their own history; and (c) be shattered when they get to high school or college (hopefully) and learn that everything they know is wrong.

I liked history before it was taken over by liberal academics who would rather savage history than teach the good points.
I wouldn't know. I've always been taught true history. I guess it must be comforting to be lied to, but I don't find it very educational.

Quote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: That is part of the problem causing our breakdown of society. We have no myths or heroes, just flawed men who were bad people.
We have plenty of heroes.

Name one that hasn't been savaged in one way or another.
Obviously that's impossible. Everybody has been savaged in one way or another. But there are people who were generally VERY good people, whose lives are taught very truthfully in school. Rosa Parks is one who comes to mind.

Quote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: It's no way to produce people who love this country (or any body but themselves).
It's the best way to produce people who love this country for a real reason, not who love this country because of lies. I love this country. I was never lied to in my history classes. If people are lied to, when they finally realise the truth, they are more likely to stop loving this country than to continue. Loving a country/some one because you have been lied to about their true nature is no love at all. Loving something/some one despite their faults is the best love there is.

I don't view just telling the good points to young kids as a lie.
If your job is teaching history and you're only teaching a very small portion of history, the portion that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, then it's a lie.

Quote: Why should young kids have to be confronted with the reality that Columbus had slaves, etc. It makes no sense to teach them that at a young age.
It only makes no sense to teach them that if they have already only been exposed to the whitewashed version. If you tell a 6 year old that columbus was a great man, and then tell that child at 7 that he killed a bunch of people and was really quite evil, then you might have that problem. If you never start with the lies in the first place, though, it's not. Information itself does a lot less damage to a person than giving new, different information that requires them to shift their view on events.