Political Crossfire Forums

[Lumina]

I don't know, truthfully, whether you don't know the difference between a universal and a particular proposition or if you're simply playing word-games. Either way, you cannot make a statement that includes all members of a group such as that no lobbyists are well-intentioned. That's illogical, regardless of your experiences in D.C.

I also don't understand your comment that "If you vote for banning abortion, you will be voting Republican, and hence supporting them on all their positions." How does supporting one issue lead to my supporting all Republican positions? Maybe this is a state-thing? In my state, only in the primaries do voters have to choose one party over all the others in order to vote. So come November, I will be voting for individual candidates who are Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and also Independents.

The Coalition for Life supports, among others, Project Gabriel and Project Rachel. In my community, churches and synagogues work to help pregnant women who need housing, financial assistance, employment help and etc.

I'm not the one spoiling for a fight, Gitana. But this I will say, and only because you've decided that my opinions are based solely on religion: I think it's terribly sad that you didn't recognize the phrase "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" as being from the Declaration of Independence.

[Gitana]

You didn't say that. You said 'endowed by their Creator,' which infers a religious belief when removed from a Constitutional context.

Quote: The Coalition for Life supports, among others, Project Gabriel and Project Rachel. In my community, churches and synagogues work to help pregnant women who need housing, financial assistance, employment help and etc.
So these women can only get help from religious organizations that are working against abortion - and perhaps sex & birth control? That could be a bit Machevellian.

Quote: because you've decided that my opinions are based solely on religion

Given the above, am I mistaken that your views regarding child=fertilized egg/fertilized egg=child are based in your religious beliefs?

And, am I or am I not mistaken that your prolife group, Coalition For Life is a local group, not a major national one (with powerful lobbyists and heavily funded, as was my original point)? Do they have a website we can visit, or some contact info?

Quote: So come November, I will be voting for individual candidates who are Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and also Independents.

Will you be voting for any candidates of any party that are pro-choice? As I said, if you will be voting for any candidate that's not Republican, who is for banning abortion, I would love to know their name.

Quote: How does supporting one issue lead to my supporting all Republican positions?

:::sigh:: Because if you elect a Republican to office, you elect ALL their positions, regardless if you agree with them or not. You can't elect a candidate and then say, "you can only act on the issue I agreed with, not the ones I didn't." Hence my comment that it doesn't matter whether you agree with all their positions or not, or if you consider yourself a Republican or not. If you elect one, you've elected the party platform; it's how they function, and in Texas, you should know that better than anyone.

For the record:

US Population: 295,734,134
CDC abortion stats for 2002 (latest available): 854,122
(Prolife groups estimate this higher)

Percentage of the entire US population that has an abortion: 0.28% -decreasing
*Percentage of US population with no healthcare: 15.7% -stable
*Percentage of US population suffering from hunger: 11.1% -rising
*Percentage of US population living in poverty: 12.7% -rising

*US Census Bureau

[Lumina]

Gitana wrote: You didn't say that. You said 'endowed by their Creator,' which infers a religious belief when removed from a Constitutional context.

You missed the ref. Move on.

Quote: The Coalition for Life supports, among others, Project Gabriel and Project Rachel. In my community, churches and synagogues work to help pregnant women who need housing, financial assistance, employment help and etc.

Gitana wrote: So these women can only get help from religious organizations that are working against abortion - and perhaps sex & birth control? That could be a bit Machevellian.

Way to twist my words, Gitana. I didn't say, nor did I infer, that churches and synagogues were the only resources in my community. By no means are they, LOL.

Quote: because you've decided that my opinions are based solely on religion

Gitana wrote: Given the above, am I mistaken that your views regarding child=fertilized egg/fertilized egg=child are based in your religious beliefs?

Why, yes. Yes, you are. Quite the opposite is true.

Gitana wrote: And, am I or am I not mistaken that your prolife group, Coalition For Life is a local group, not a major national one (with powerful lobbyists and heavily funded, as was my original point)? Do they have a website we can visit, or some contact info?

I don't think you realize how combative you seem here. I ignored your question deliberately the first time you asked. I was trying to be diplomatic, but this is yet another clue you've missed. So I'll spell it out:
The way you've framed this question twice alarms me. I'd be reckless and irresponsible to post such info here. And, by the way, I am not on trial.

Quote: So come November, I will be voting for individual candidates who are Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and also Independents.

Gitana wrote: Will you be voting for any candidates of any party that are pro-choice? As I said, if you will be voting for any candidate that's not Republican, who is for banning abortion, I would love to know their name.

Oh, no doubt. No doubt! Not that I need to defend nor justify myself, but I've posted elsewhere in PCF that I am currently the co-manager of a Libertarian's campaign (the other co-manager is the local Greens chair, LOL). But because you aren't a voter here, I'm very curious why you are asking for such information.

Quote: How does supporting one issue lead to my supporting all Republican positions?

Gitana wrote: :::sigh:: Because if you elect a Republican to office, you elect ALL their positions, regardless if you agree with them or not. You can't elect a candidate and then say, "you can only act on the issue I agreed with, not the ones I didn't." Hence my comment that it doesn't matter whether you agree with all their positions or not, or if you consider yourself a Republican or not. If you elect one, you've elected the party platform; it's how they function, and in Texas, you should know that better than anyone.

Here, you're assuming that all Republicans share identical ideology. This just isn't so.

But you're right: In Texas, I should know "better" than anyone about my own state's politics. And I'm pretty confident that I do.

Meanwhile, as I observed in a previous post, I'm not the one looking for a fight.

Carry on without me. :hi:

[Gitana]

Quote: The way you've framed this question twice alarms me. I'd be reckless and irresponsible to post such info here.

I fail to see how posting the name of a major prolife group and/or their public website or info could possibly alarm you, threaten you, or jeopardize you in any way. However, if it is a pretty small or local group, than yes, I can understand basic online safety/anonymity, and will take that to mean you made a false claim as to our earlier discussion.

I accept that I erred regarding your religiosity.

You did manage to avoid answering any of my salient questions; I persisted deliberately, and you bailed. Ah, well. 8:)

[Lumina]

Gitana wrote: I ...will take that to mean you made a false claim as to our earlier discussion.

Take it as you please. In another thread you say that I'm "prevaricating"; here, you have announced that I've made a false claim. Boiled down to plain English, you're calling me a liar, and this is why I don't further civil discourse is possible with you.

[Gitana]

Would that be anything like

Quote: You've demonstrated already that you don't have as many facts as you do prejudicial opinions
an insupportable generalization that demolishes your credibility
you're being disingenuous and dishonest
Your statement is indefensible
etc

that? ;)

You are quick, in many of your postings, to discredit others, dismiss them as wrong, etc - but typical of people who do that, you are equally over-sensitive when you experience it.

Further discourse is always possible, but probably not desireable. We'll leave it on the assumption that we probably disagree about almost everything.

[AllAmericanMan]

Why don't you two just settle this with mud wrestling? :P

[Gitana]

:woo: LOL Now THAT would be funny!

[Gitana]

Follow-up:

"The Coalition of Life (from their website):

Designed with the help of Pro-Life experts from around the country who have been successful at eliminating Planned Parenthood's influence from their local areas, the action plan has been consistently getting results since its implementation began.

However, we need your help to fully implement this plan! Please consider which of the following program areas God is calling you to participate in to help end abortion.

Community-wide prayer:
God tells us, "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." - 2 Chronicles 7:14

Stand & Pray:
This program is the peaceful prayerful presence of Christians in front of the Planned Parenthood facilities across the area.

Quote: Gitana wrote:
So these women can only get help from religious organizations that are working against abortion - and perhaps sex & birth control? That could be a bit Machevellian.

Project Gabriel: "The Gabriel Project helps women in crisis pregnancies by offering Christian love and practical solutions at the parish. Parishes participate by placing a Sign of Life outside the church to advertise their commitment to help all others in distress, to turn all hearts to Jesus Christ and to make Him known to everyone."

Project Rachel: "Project Rachel is the confidential and compassionate outreach to women (and men) who have had an abortion or been involved in an abortion decision. Its purpose is to foster reconciliation and healing between the parent and Christ, His Church, the child and all other significant relationships. "

Website: http://www.houstoncoalition.com/custom_page.cfm?category=4&page=4&active=4

This site also (wrongly) claims Plan B is an abortificant - under a 'Truth - Contraceptives' title no less (and that's the only contraceptive mentioned). It's goal is to remove Planned Parenthood completely from their locations - contraceptives, education, free medical services and all their other assistance included. All other 'assistance for women' by these groups seems to simply be referral lists to area services. I found no donations, lobbying, recruitment, projects, etc to help children. The only adoption info was the contact number for Catholic Charities.

Nope - no religious foundations there. No help for adoptees or children, either. Not exactly a "major prolife group" - photos of a 'successful' protest showed the largest group of...six.

The few 'Coalition For Life' groups that exist had identical information on their websites.

Quote:
Quote: lumina: Here, you're assuming that all Republicans share identical ideology. This just isn't so.

"The authors of this Platform want all Texas Republicans to demonstrate they agree with it.

On p.5, candidates are advised to read and sign off on the platform as a condition for receiving financial support from the Texas State Republican Party"

Source: The Texas Republican Party Platform http://www.texasgop.org/site/PageServer?pagename=library_platform

(Did I mention that I lived in Texas for a year, not too long ago...? ;) )
...................................

In the words of that esteemed philosopher, Judge Judy: "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." That's a wrap.

8:)

[Lumina]

Surely, you don't expect a website to provide all the info? For example, are you aware of which churches/synagogues are part of the Coalition for Life and what these individual organizations are doing? If you aren't, are you simply hoping for an opportunity to sit in judgment without being in possession of the facts?

Are you aware of the groups that support Project Gabriel? Or Project Rachel? Individuals?

And in counterpoint, what pro-abortion groups do address the consequences, lifelong for so many, of abortion for so many people? What, for example, does Planned Parenthood do in the way of post-abortion counseling?

And exactly what was your point in sleuthing out these organizations? For what sort of "proof" were you searching?

And did you find it?