Political Crossfire Forums

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheTME wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:

Why is this in the Christian thread???


Probably becuase it is discussing the Christian notion of satan.

I would beg to differ, the post is about the satanist view of satan and God it is stated in the post as well as made obvious in the link.

There is NOTHING here to do with Christianity, except for the poster's need to attempt to elicit a response.

I ask again why is this is the Christianity section, why not the larger category "religion".
why do you give a flying ----?

Perhaps because it 'taints' the holiness of the Christianity....?
At least that's the reason I have received from some other Christians when subjects, not to their liking, are brought up.
Perhaps the poster wanted specific christian insight on the subject....?

Far too complicated a response, my issue is this simple.

It is not a Christian representation of satan but the satanist representation of satan so it is NOT relavent to Christians or Christian theology.

It does NOTHING to taint the holiness of Christianity any more than UFOs taint the aerodynamics of F-16s. This should appear in the overall religion category as opposed to ONLY the Christian thread.

[sLiPpY]

psholtz wrote: sLiPpY wrote: psholtz wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: psholtz wrote: See 2 Cor 11:14
see Jude vs 9
Yes, Jude 9 is an important verse..

It's completely foolish to ever accuse Satan of anything.

That's the whole trick behind Satan, after all..

Do you know what Satan means in Hebrew?

Samael in the Talmud and certain Kabbalist works. It's that dang, Babylonia and Zoaroaster influence.
Samael is a demon who is often associated w/ Satan himself...

Samael is "venom of God".. Interesting, but not quite what I was looking for.. :wink:

Well, learn me somethin' good then. :P

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheTME wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:

Why is this in the Christian thread???


Probably becuase it is discussing the Christian notion of satan.

I would beg to differ, the post is about the satanist view of satan and God it is stated in the post as well as made obvious in the link.

There is NOTHING here to do with Christianity, except for the poster's need to attempt to elicit a response.

I ask again why is this is the Christianity section, why not the larger category "religion".
why do you give a flying ----?

Perhaps because it 'taints' the holiness of the Christianity....?
At least that's the reason I have received from some other Christians when subjects, not to their liking, are brought up.
Perhaps the poster wanted specific christian insight on the subject....?

Far too complicated a response, my issue is this simple.

It is not a Christian representation of satan but the satanist representation of satan so it is NOT relavent to Christians or Christian theology.

It does NOTHING to taint the holiness of Christianity any more than UFOs taint the aerodynamics of F-16s. This should appear in the overall religion category as opposed to ONLY the Christian thread.
I disagree. From my past and present experience, many religious people don't like to discuss things that they know little or nothing about, other than to say'because' when asked why. It has also been my experience that many religious feel threatened by these issues because they don't have true faith in their own beliefs.
My experience only speaks to that, not, perhaps, religious people as a whole (but it is my belief that it does).

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheTME wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:

Why is this in the Christian thread???


Probably becuase it is discussing the Christian notion of satan.

I would beg to differ, the post is about the satanist view of satan and God it is stated in the post as well as made obvious in the link.

There is NOTHING here to do with Christianity, except for the poster's need to attempt to elicit a response.

I ask again why is this is the Christianity section, why not the larger category "religion".
why do you give a flying ----?

Perhaps because it 'taints' the holiness of the Christianity....?
At least that's the reason I have received from some other Christians when subjects, not to their liking, are brought up.
Perhaps the poster wanted specific christian insight on the subject....?

Far too complicated a response, my issue is this simple.

It is not a Christian representation of satan but the satanist representation of satan so it is NOT relavent to Christians or Christian theology.

It does NOTHING to taint the holiness of Christianity any more than UFOs taint the aerodynamics of F-16s. This should appear in the overall religion category as opposed to ONLY the Christian thread.
I disagree. From my past and present experience, many religious people don't like to discuss things that they know little or nothing about, other than to say'because' when asked why. It has also been my experience that many religious feel threatened by these issues because they don't have true faith in their own beliefs.
My experience only speaks to that, not, perhaps, religious people as a whole (but it is my belief that it does).

You disagree with what? That the post IS a Christian representation of satan?

I agree with everything you say in your post here, my point is no deeper, no more meaningful than what I wrote. There is no hidden meaning or deep emotional scare I am seeking to avoid, no threat to Christianity or my shaky faith, no ignorance saving blinders I wish to retain.

I really truely honestly don't see how a post on the satanist view of satan belongs in the Christian section that's all.


As the great philosopher Groucho once said about Freud

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[XxMorningStarxX]

wannabe wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: John wrote: Quote: The Righteous Satan style of thought also associates many non-mainstream groups as being a force for good, so that many groups are considered allies such as freethinkers, athiests, humanists, and members of most Left Hand Path groups. All these individuals are considered powerful and strong, and therefore feared by the weaker force of lies that is God's domain, as deceit is inherently weaker and more temporary than truth.


I don't see the point here exihbited in real life. In real life the majority of the people do not follow God's way. They do thier own thing and rebel. Turn on the television or go to a book store. Most of the material is geared towards promoting lifestyle that is actually anti-God, this is the majority. It seems to me that the brainwashing is working the the oposite direction that what you're stating.

It takes a person with conviction to go against the grain and live a Godly life...in fact just about everything in society is against one choosing to live for God.

BINGO.
If im not mistaken, it says in the bible that those who follow God's path will be ridiculed for their lifestyle.
I dont think there is anything more true...

John nailed it :-D


but I'm confused, where is this all coming from.....even if it was no-more then a metaphor Satan represents to Christians and Muslims the very incarnation of pride and huberius, the idea that the universe is centered on us, that reality is here mearly to serve us, that the key to life is not seeking justice and truth, but manipulation and perception......where are you getting all your stuff? :-|

WEll i'd like to point out that IF God was evil then quoting from the BIble is absolutely useless because it is the work of an evil GOd who wants to spread his propaganda. In which case nothing you say in terms of faith will be relevent becaues an infinitely intelligent "Evil" God has you in his grasp. Of course since God is free from all temporal and matieral desires, he can easily erect a facade of "infinite" love (because he has nothing to lose, he is powerful), in return he quenches his Ego by forcing weak minded humans (his creations) to worship him and give him attention- and if you dont' do this you are cast in the lake of fire.

Saying that "you know God is loving" is useless because obviously an omnipotent being could deceive you into thinking ANYTHING. In which case Satan will be the, literally, "demonized" embodiement of creativity and freedom.

If God is deceitful than how can you possibly believe that Satan did evil things? Because the BIble told you?

I"m not arguing that GOd is actually evil. I'm suggesting that all of you should at least open your minds and question. I believe God made us with a brain for a reason. If we are to give him blind faith than why would he give us free will? He cannot possibly expect humans to be as gullible as that.

[XxMorningStarxX]

ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral) Since GOd has shown himsef to be as much of a moral "flip-flopper" as John Kerry on election day in between the OT and NT. (God floods world in man's third fall, then he promises not to do so again. God gives man commandments, and yet GOd condones israel's massive-scale killings. God then allows Jews to be slaughtered in World War II even though he has clearly intervened in the Good Ol' days)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

[Gilbert1908]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

You may want to browse through the NT too and then figure out why the two seem to be different and seemingly in opposition occaisionally.

[XxMorningStarxX]

Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

You may want to browse through the NT too and then figure out why the two seem to be different and seemingly in opposition occaisionally.

Yeah i've tried doing that. I read into the beginning of the NT, which is what the CHurch i go to (protestant recovery church) basically focuses most on. In which case i would be going back to my view of God as shown to me through my Church- WHICH is to say, completely contradictory to my impression i received from the OT.

But hey it's apparently impossible to ask reasonable questions to anybody in the church group (granted they're great people.. BUT) because every question i ask them about the discontinuity between OT and NT is given an answer that is basically something liek:

-Well you didn't read it carefully enough.
-You shouldn't question faith because God is always right (duh)
-you should go back and read the OT and NT
-Don't question God's decision on Abraham + Son. He had His reasons.
-Don't think, use your spirit- (this is the part im totally numbed on, because the Spirit is a life force, your bodily kenetic/potential energy that keeps you functioning. it is tagged to you, but the fact is reading the Bible uses the "MIND" faculty, feeling emotions uses the "MIND" faculty, and thus talking about the Bible is also in the MIND jurisdiction. So i see the "using your spirit not mind" answer is simple deflection of question.

[Gilbert1908]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

You may want to browse through the NT too and then figure out why the two seem to be different and seemingly in opposition occaisionally.

Yeah i've tried doing that. I read into the beginning of the NT, which is what the CHurch i go to (protestant recovery church) basically focuses most on. In which case i would be going back to my view of God as shown to me through my Church- WHICH is to say, completely contradictory to my impression i received from the OT.

But hey it's apparently impossible to ask reasonable questions to anybody in the church group (granted they're great people.. BUT) because every question i ask them about the discontinuity between OT and NT is given an answer that is basically something liek:

-Well you didn't read it carefully enough.
-You shouldn't question faith because God is always right (duh)
-you should go back and read the OT and NT
-Don't question God's decision on Abraham + Son. He had His reasons.
-Don't think, use your spirit- (this is the part im totally numbed on, because the Spirit is a life force, your bodily kenetic/potential energy that keeps you functioning. it is tagged to you, but the fact is reading the Bible uses the "MIND" faculty, feeling emotions uses the "MIND" faculty, and thus talking about the Bible is also in the MIND jurisdiction. So i see the "using your spirit not mind" answer is simple deflection of question.

Well we Catholics are usually accused of thinking far too much, so I don't have that problem.

My advice is to use your mind and don't be turned off by what PEOPLE say and do, faith is not found in people or activity but in the Truth.

[XxMorningStarxX]

Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

You may want to browse through the NT too and then figure out why the two seem to be different and seemingly in opposition occaisionally.

Yeah i've tried doing that. I read into the beginning of the NT, which is what the CHurch i go to (protestant recovery church) basically focuses most on. In which case i would be going back to my view of God as shown to me through my Church- WHICH is to say, completely contradictory to my impression i received from the OT.

But hey it's apparently impossible to ask reasonable questions to anybody in the church group (granted they're great people.. BUT) because every question i ask them about the discontinuity between OT and NT is given an answer that is basically something liek:

-Well you didn't read it carefully enough.
-You shouldn't question faith because God is always right (duh)
-you should go back and read the OT and NT
-Don't question God's decision on Abraham + Son. He had His reasons.
-Don't think, use your spirit- (this is the part im totally numbed on, because the Spirit is a life force, your bodily kenetic/potential energy that keeps you functioning. it is tagged to you, but the fact is reading the Bible uses the "MIND" faculty, feeling emotions uses the "MIND" faculty, and thus talking about the Bible is also in the MIND jurisdiction. So i see the "using your spirit not mind" answer is simple deflection of question.

Well we Catholics are usually accused of thinking far too much, so I don't have that problem.

My advice is to use your mind and don't be turned off by what PEOPLE say and do, faith is not found in people or activity but in the Truth.

I know what you mean. But in the end in this world, it is through people that you are going to get out the plain facts which can be pieced together into the Truth. If you've never had contact with people, then how can you ever know truth? If the apostles didn't reach out to people, no one would've known about the Bible.

Catholic eh? :)

On one hand I really can't sit with the idea of a bureaucratized institution (that has far reaching political influence as well) with a history of crimes, but on the other hand, the Catholic Church IMO is far more reasonable than Evangelical Protestants in opening up to science.

I know Christians who literally believe in everything that happened in Genesis and who see the THeory of Evolution as "satanic." Ridiculous!

[Gilbert1908]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: ANd about the Ego/Vanity aspect:

To tell you the Truth, the impression i get of God from Sermons in Church and the Preachers HAS genuinely been a loving, caring, father. However i found myself extremely confused when i opened up the Old Testament and read it for the first time,because there, God striked me as completely Evil.

Some examples?

1: God gives people "free will" and "freedom" But yet people are clearly (and apparently severely) punished for what they do. I don't call this freedom, i consider it as about as free as saying "well in Soviet Russia, you are actually free to do whatever you want (physically) it just means you'll be either thrown into the Gulags or Shot against a wall." This is not freedom. It is coercion.

2: God "tests" Abraham in Genesis by telling him to kill his son Isaac to prove that he loves Him most. THis is perhaps the most shocking thing I encountered while reading the Bible. I asked myself: Gee would a loving God who calls Himself Father do such a thing?? TO deceive a "son" in order to fuel his own Ego?? SEcondly i asked myself: Wow, would I DO such a thing to my child if God asked of me something like this? THe answer that popped into my head was: ABSOLUTELY NOT. I'd probably rather go to hell.

3: God is apparently free from temporal restrictions, and therefore he can see the future. in Exodus he clearly knows what the Pharaoh's reaction would be to Moses. God tells Moses to go and that He would "harden the pharaoh's heart," So how would the pharaoh be accountable for his actions?? God conjured a self-fulfilling prophesy that sought to solve a problem through violence and coercion rather than persuasion and love.

4: God is more reminiscent of an eccentric Olympian Zeus, complete with emotions such as Anger, Vengeance, and Ego (the need to establish his dominance over everybody and everything) but apparently we are supposed to "understand" all his motives and deem them reasonable.

5: God purposely hides from the world to "test" peoples' faiths, which kind of reminds me of Abraham and Son, where God uses deceit to test his potential followers. He then ostracizes/shuns nonbelievers and they are cast into the lake of fire. God's reasoning is: 1) "He loves everybody, he pities even more those who are cast into the lake of fire"- well that's great but i doubt it's going to help anyone in Hell. 2) "It wasn't God's fault, it was the nonbelievers fault for refusing to see the clues placed in front of their eyes" Oh really..

6: God deems an unworthy temporal existence befitting an eternity of damnation. Sound fair?

and Lastly, a quote,

"Do the Gods love it because it is good? or Is it good because the Gods love it?" - some Greek philosopher could be Plato.

So, does God deem what is moral or immoral (if so, this would seem in itself kind of arbitrary and immoral)

Or

Does God abide by a higher order of morality that transcends him? (if so, then God's actions to mentioned in the OT would be deemed completely immoral)

You may want to browse through the NT too and then figure out why the two seem to be different and seemingly in opposition occaisionally.

Yeah i've tried doing that. I read into the beginning of the NT, which is what the CHurch i go to (protestant recovery church) basically focuses most on. In which case i would be going back to my view of God as shown to me through my Church- WHICH is to say, completely contradictory to my impression i received from the OT.

But hey it's apparently impossible to ask reasonable questions to anybody in the church group (granted they're great people.. BUT) because every question i ask them about the discontinuity between OT and NT is given an answer that is basically something liek:

-Well you didn't read it carefully enough.
-You shouldn't question faith because God is always right (duh)
-you should go back and read the OT and NT
-Don't question God's decision on Abraham + Son. He had His reasons.
-Don't think, use your spirit- (this is the part im totally numbed on, because the Spirit is a life force, your bodily kenetic/potential energy that keeps you functioning. it is tagged to you, but the fact is reading the Bible uses the "MIND" faculty, feeling emotions uses the "MIND" faculty, and thus talking about the Bible is also in the MIND jurisdiction. So i see the "using your spirit not mind" answer is simple deflection of question.

Well we Catholics are usually accused of thinking far too much, so I don't have that problem.

My advice is to use your mind and don't be turned off by what PEOPLE say and do, faith is not found in people or activity but in the Truth.

I know what you mean. But in the end in this world, it is through people that you are going to get out the plain facts which can be pieced together into the Truth. If you've never had contact with people, then how can you ever know truth? If the apostles didn't reach out to people, no one would've known about the Bible.

Catholic eh? :)

On one hand I really can't sit with the idea of a bureaucratized institution (that has far reaching political influence as well) with a history of crimes, but on the other hand, the Catholic Church IMO is far more reasonable than Evangelical Protestants in opening up to science.

I know Christians who literally believe in everything that happened in Genesis and who see the THeory of Evolution as "satanic." Ridiculous!

The crimes are committed by PEOPLE not by Catholicism and the bureaucacy is NOT the Church, so I have not issue with either objection.

[psholtz]

sLiPpY wrote: psholtz wrote: sLiPpY wrote: psholtz wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: psholtz wrote: See 2 Cor 11:14
see Jude vs 9
Yes, Jude 9 is an important verse..

It's completely foolish to ever accuse Satan of anything.

That's the whole trick behind Satan, after all..

Do you know what Satan means in Hebrew?

Samael in the Talmud and certain Kabbalist works. It's that dang, Babylonia and Zoaroaster influence.
Samael is a demon who is often associated w/ Satan himself...

Samael is "venom of God".. Interesting, but not quite what I was looking for.. :wink:

Well, learn me somethin' good then. :P
I like to use the "Accuser" definition..

I think it makes the most sense in most of the Biblical literature..