Political Crossfire Forums

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

This is an issue that has come up repeatedly in the abortion forums, and I feel the need to clarify for those standing on the side of pro-life. Those who stand for Choice are not the same as those who stand for Abortion. Personally, I am pro-choice, meaning that I value the choice of the parents whether or not they choose to have an abortion. Even if they choose not to, that is their choice and I respect that. I am in no way saying that mothers should have forced abortions, but rather that the mother should have that option available to them, should they choose to pursue it. Choice is the key factor here, and either way, I would respect the parent's decision, whether or not they choose to abort.

However, I have seen many people proclaim those who are pro-choice as being "pro-abortion". This blanket term is nothing more than an ignorant attack on the people who value choice. The main pro-choicer I have noticed upon this forum, besides myself, would be steen. Neither of us are advocating mandatory abortions for mothers, but rather the choice for the mother to decide what to do with their own body. Someone who is pro-abortion would be advocating that embryos should be aborted if... (insert requirements here), something that neither myself, or steen have done. We have argued under certain conditions, but have never said that they should be mandatory, only available.

So do not classify those who are pro-choice as also being pro-abortion. We respect the mothers wishes either way, and while I personally would never advocate abortions, I do advocate the choice of the individual over the morals of another. If a mother wants an abortion, it is their right. We respect the rights of the mother, and of the individual as the paramount liberty: right to your own body. Respect of the individual is the argument I present, and the right to choose is something that should never be lost. As soon as we lose liberty for someone else's morals, we fail to become free.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

while you may classify yourself as pro choice, I and all the other prolifers will classify you as pro abortion or my favorite for those that really care, Pro death. If you want to try and dictate whay you think that being called that is bad, then too bad. Being pro choince is one and the same with being pro abortion. I f you are pro choice then what choice are you advocating? it is a bad title becuase it decives the listener from the reality of what you support.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

Plodder wrote: while you may classify yourself as pro choice, I and all the other prolifers will classify you as pro abortion or my favorite for those that really care, Pro death. If you want to try and dictate whay you think that being called that is bad, then too bad. Being pro choince is one and the same with being pro abortion. I f you are pro choice then what choice are you advocating? it is a bad title becuase it decives the listener from the reality of what you support.

Not at all. Those that are pro-choice value the choice of the individual, regardless of what the outcome of that choice is. There is a strong difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion, as I have already stated. Having said that, it can also be seen there being pro-choice and being pro-abortion are very different stances on the same issue. The choice that we are advocating is choice itself. The choice for the mother to have an abortion if they choose to have one. I have already said that I do not support abortions, I support the option of abortion for others. My morals have no hold over the actions of others, and I respect the choice of other individuals. Hence, Pro-Choice.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

every human is pro choice as we all want to have good good choices. however there are bad choices. Rape for exapmple is a bad choice. howver we are agoinst this choice yes? then we restrict or try to restrice these people. When you say that your moral do not affect others then you ignore the fact of life. Bad choices are prevented and good choices are encouraged. Abortion is a bad choice. Calling yourself pro choice causes the person reciving the title to hide behind that title to mask the truth that you are infact pro abortion. Becuse if you support good choices but not bad ones then you cannot be pro choice.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

Plodder wrote: every human is pro choice as we all want to have good good choices. however there are bad choices. Rape for exapmple is a bad choice. howver we are agoinst this choice yes? then we restrict or try to restrice these people. When you say that your moral do not affect others then you ignore the fact of life. Bad choices are prevented and good choices are encouraged. Abortion is a bad choice. Calling yourself pro choice causes the person reciving the title to hide behind that title to mask the truth that you are infact pro abortion. Becuse if you support good choices but not bad ones then you cannot be pro choice.

And who determines what the "good choice" is? You? :lol:

Your individual morals and definitions of "right" and "wrong" are not the same for another. Morals are subjective principles, and differ from person to person. Therefore, what you think may be "right" is not the same as what another may think is "right". So how can you both be "right"?

Easy, though your individual choices. The issue of rape is not an issue, because the victim of rape has their choice ignored. The victim has the power to choose, but that choice is not respected by the attacking individual, or group. With abortion, the embryo does not have the power to choose. Sure it is easy to say that it would choose to live if able to make that choice, but I'm sure a tree would rather be left standing instead of being made into your home. Or a sheet of metal would rather be left alone instead of being made into your car. Or a cow would rather be left alive instead of becoming your steak dinner. Speculation is easy to do, and if your entire argument hides behind that, then you are not only a hypocrite, but also a coward.

The issue between good and bad choices is for the individual to determine. Being Pro-Choice means that you do not focus on the result of that choice, but rather the choice itself. It does not effect me either way if a mother chooses to have an abortion or not, what matters to me is that the mother has that choice available. The issue is the choice itself, not the outcome of that choice.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Abortion is a bad choice. Nope.

Quote: Calling yourself pro choice causes the person reciving the title to hide behind that title to mask the truth that you are infact pro abortion. Nope, you are lying again.

Izzibeth · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 423

you will notice a big difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers.

pro-choicers believe that whatever decision you make is neither "right" nor "wrong". it is a decision and in life, you make decisions, many of which you later reflect on and find out whether they were "right" or "wrong" for you.

pro-lifers are "right". no matter what. and you are "wrong" for disagreeing with them. there is no deciding for yourself what is "right" or "wrong" based on the choices you have made in life because you are "WRONG" and they are "RIGHT". there is a key link between pro-lifers and those who base all their beliefs on their religion. they are always "right" and you are always "wrong" unless of course .. you agree with everything they have to say.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

Izzibeth wrote: you will notice a big difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers.

pro-choicers believe that whatever decision you make is neither "right" nor "wrong". it is a decision and in life, you make decisions, many of which you later reflect on and find out whether they were "right" or "wrong" for you.

pro-lifers are "right". no matter what. and you are "wrong" for disagreeing with them. there is no deciding for yourself what is "right" or "wrong" based on the choices you have made in life because you are "WRONG" and they are "RIGHT". there is a key link between pro-lifers and those who base all their beliefs on their religion. they are always "right" and you are always "wrong" unless of course .. you agree with everything they have to say.

:tu:

Good to see steen and myself aren't the one two that see that. Pro-choice is always right, because we are not concerned about the outcome of the choice, but rather the choice itself.

Pro-life is concerned only with the outcome, and seeks to eliminate the choice to accommodate that desired outcome. So, to be pro-life is to want everyone to agree with you. To be pro-choice, is to support the individual.

Nicholas · Joined: 14 Aug 2005 Posts: 321 Location: Rural backwater

LostSoul3412 wrote: Pro-choice is always right, because we are not concerned about the outcome of the choice, but rather the choice itself.

Sums it all up. Showing no concern for life as you do not take the outcome into consideration, means you consider life of no worth.

Quote: Pro-life is concerned only with the outcome

By the means of seeing the importance of life, not by failed responsibility or choice linked by the aforementioned.

Quote: and seeks to eliminate the choice to accommodate that desired outcome

And you seek to eliminate the preservation of life to accommodate for one's desired choice, immorally.

Quote: To be pro-choice, is to support the individual.

And to rebuke any pro-life agenda with utter disgust, inclined with anything other than choice.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: And who determines what the "good choice" is? You the people.

Quote: Your individual morals and definitions of "right" and "wrong" are not the same for another. Morals are subjective principles, and differ from person to person. Therefore, what you think may be "right" is not the same as what another may think is "right". So how can you both be "right"? according to you I must be right because i relect and I see that my position is correct. Regardless, it does not matter i what someone belkives if it is clearly wrong. I see it as clearly wrong. Just because Hitler believed that Jews were inferior did not mean that his actions were ok. USA and more diagreed and he got his ass kicked to hell.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: while you may classify yourself as pro choice, I and all the other prolifers will classify you as pro abortion or my favorite for those that really care, Pro death. DUH! We already know that YOU lie, so that's not a surprise.

Quote: ..Being pro choince is one and the same with being pro abortion. A lie. As usual, you are lying.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Nicholas wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Pro-choice is always right, because we are not concerned about the outcome of the choice, but rather the choice itself. Sums it all up. Showing no concern for life as you do not take the outcome into consideration, means you consider life of no worth. Nope, that's a lie.

Quote: Quote: Pro-life is concerned only with the outcome By the means of seeing the importance of life, not by failed responsibility or choice linked by the aforementioned. Irrelevant babbling.

Quote: Quote: and seeks to eliminate the choice to accommodate that desired outcome And you seek to eliminate the preservation of life to accommodate for one's desired choice, immorally. Another lie.

Quote: Quote: To be pro-choice, is to support the individual. And to rebuke any pro-life agenda with utter disgust, inclined with anything other than choice. You bet. We won't let you enslave and oppress women.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Quote: And who determines what the "good choice" is? You the people. So if "the people" detremines that strawberries are a bad choice, then they should be able to rpohibit you from eating them?

Oh, wait, there is that little matter of the US Constitution disagreeing with your claptrap nonsense. :roll:

Quote: Quote: Your individual morals and definitions of "right" and "wrong" are not the same for another. Morals are subjective principles, and differ from person to person. Therefore, what you think may be "right" is not the same as what another may think is "right". So how can you both be "right"? according to you I must be right because i relect and I see that my position is correct. Regardless, it does not matter i what someone belkives if it is clearly wrong. I see it as clearly wrong. Just because Hitler ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

straw man · Joined: 19 Apr 2006 Posts: 2948

steen wrote: Plodder wrote: Quote: And who determines what the "good choice" is? You the people. So if "the people" detremines that strawberries are a bad choice, then they should be able to rpohibit you from eating them?

Oh, wait, there is that little matter of the US Constitution disagreeing with your claptrap nonsense. :roll:

Quote: Quote: Your individual morals and definitions of "right" and "wrong" are not the same for another. Morals are subjective principles, and differ from person to person. Therefore, what you think may be "right" is not the same as what another may think is "right". So how can you both be "right"? according to you I must be right because i relect and I see that my position is correct. Regardless, it does not matter i what someone belkives if it is clearly wrong. I see it as clearly wrong. Just because Hitler ....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

You're lying! You are a lying sack of crap.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

Plodder wrote: the people.

Exactly, which is why the people should be able to choose what is right though their own individual choice, and not have it forced upon them.

Plodder wrote: according to you I must be right because i relect and I see that my position is correct. Regardless, it does not matter i what someone belkives if it is clearly wrong. I see it as clearly wrong. Just because Hitler believed that Jews were inferior did not mean that his actions were ok. USA and more diagreed and he got his ass kicked to hell.

You are correct, in the context of yourself. There is no fault in not having an abortion, in fact it is a path that I would take myself. However, to say that no one else should have an abortion because you don't like them is where the line is drawn. Also, you cannot define what is "clearly wrong" in the context of another individual's ideals. I do not think that it is wrong to be pro-life, I think that it is wrong to turn those morals into law.

.. And stop bringing up Hitler, that's not the issue here.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8362

Nicholas wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Pro-choice is always right, because we are not concerned about the outcome of the choice, but rather the choice itself.

Sums it all up. Showing no concern for life as you do not take the outcome into consideration, means you consider life of no worth.

Quote: Pro-life is concerned only with the outcome

By the means of seeing the importance of life, not by failed responsibility or choice linked by the aforementioned.

Quote: and seeks to eliminate the choice to accommodate that desired outcome

And you seek to eliminate the preservation of life to accommodate for one's desired choice, immorally.

Quote: To be pro-choice, is to support the individual.

And to rebuke any pro-life agenda with utter disgust, inclined with anything other than choice.

The only agenda being rebuked is the issue or turning morals into law. I have said many times that with my own potential children, I would not want an abortion, but I also realize that I have no right to tell others what to think, or feel. Morals are subjective, and abortion is a subjective issue. I do not seek the elimination of any life, potential or otherwise. Personally, I am pro-life, but I value the right of the individual to make their own choices. Abortions are not being enforced or mandated, the choice is the issue. But arguing for the choice to remain available, I am not arguing that it is a path that should be taken. Instead, it is a path that the individual parents must choose to walk on their own. I have the utmost concern for life, but the difference between life and existance is freedom. From that, freedom equates to choice, and without choice we are not free. Biological life is only a part of the puzzle, and we must consider the rights of the mother or parents with their choices as well. I belive it was brought up in another thread that if you are against abortions, make them uneccessary, not illegal. Do not force the issue, argue it. That is why I suppot no law on the issue of abortion. Value the individual choice, value the freedom of the mother, and value the life of the liberated individual.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: So if "the people" detremines that strawberries are a bad choice, then they should be able to rpohibit you from eating them?
yes. its called the social contract by Locke and Hobbes saying that government derives its power from the consent of the people. so yesif the majority of the people did not like strwberries then they could prevent you fropm having them.

Quote: The only agenda being rebuked is the issue or turning morals into law Yet somehow I belive that killing being against the law is a moral law, ans so is the speeding laws and the war laws, and the tax laws, and the welfare laws, and the immigation laws, and the hpousing laws and the justice system, and the legislative brance and the anti trust laws.......

Quote: Personally, I am pro-life, but I value the right of the individual to make their own choices. Then stay ouit of the argument since it is my choice to do this.

Quote: Exactly, which is why the people should be able to choose what is right though their own individual choice, and not have it forced upon them then lets have an anarchy... right.

Quote: However, to say that no one else should have an abortion because you don't like them is where the line is drawn. Also, you cannot define what is "clearly wrong" in the context of another individual's ideals. I do not think that it is wrong to be pro-life, I think that it is wrong to turn those morals into law.

yes you can. laws are all based around morality even the tax code. also saying that you are agoinst something but still endorse it is called being a hypocrite as you are aptly demonstrating. you know... I am pro life. Kill babies cause it s your choice. that kinda thing.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: Not at all. Those that are pro-choice value the choice of the individual Nonsense. Never have I seen someone whos "pro choice" mention the choice of the parents to engage in sexual reproduction. Never do I hear someone whos "pro choice" speak up for the lack of choice the newly conceived life gets. Never do I hear a murderer of someone who is born called "pro choice". And if abortion really is the murder of a human individual, as I believe it is, you are not pro choice at all you are pro abortion or pro death.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

everyone is pro choice because I value descisions but not all of them.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Quote: So if "the people" detremines that strawberries are a bad choice, then they should be able to rpohibit you from eating them? yes. its called the social contract by Locke and Hobbes saying that government derives its power from the consent of the people. so yesif the majority of the people did not like strwberries then they could prevent you fropm having them. Utterly and completely violating the US Constitution. So whereever your claim is reality, it certainly is not so in the US.