Political Crossfire Forums

[Robodoon]

Implanted Chips in Our Troops?
A Florida company wants to get under the skin of 1.4 million U.S. servicemen and women.
VeriChip Corp, based in Delray Beach, Fla., and described by the D.C. Examiner as "one of the most aggressive marketers of radio frequency identification chips," is hoping to convince the Pentagon to allow them to insert the chips, known as RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) chips under the skin of the right arms of U.S. servicemen and servicewomen to enable them to scan an arm and obtain that person’s identity and medical history. The chips would replace the legendary metal dog tags that have been worn by U.S. military personnel since 1906.
The device is usually implanted above the triceps area of an individual’s right arm, but can also by implanted in the hand if scanned at the proper frequency. The VeriChip responds with a unique 16-digit number, which can correlate the user to information stored on a database for identity verification, medical records access, and other uses. The insertion procedure is performed under local anesthetic, and once inserted it is invisible to the naked eye.
The company, which the Examiner notes has powerful political connections, is "in discussions” with the Pentagon, VeriChip spokeswoman Nicole Philbin told the Examiner. "The potential for this technology doesn’t just stop at the civilian level,” Philbin said. Company officials have touted the chips as versatile, able to be used in a variety of situations such as helping track illegal immigrants or giving doctors immediate access to patient’s medical records.
On Monday the Department of State started to issue electronic passports (e-passports) equipped with RFID chips. According to reports the U.S. government has placed an order with a California company, Infineon Technologies North America, for smart chip-embedded passports.
The Associated Press said the new U.S. passports include an electronic chip that contains all the data contained in the paper version name, birth date, gender, for example and can be read by digital scanners at equipped airports. They cost 14 percent more than their predecessors but the State Department said they will speed up going through Customs and help enhance border security.
The company's hefty political clout is typified by having former secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, on its board of directors.
Thompson assured the Examiner that the chip is safe and that no one — not even military personnel, who are required by law to follow orders — will be forced to accept an implant against his or her will. He has also promised to have a chip implanted in himself but could not tell the Examiner when.
"I’m extremely busy and I’m waiting until my hospitals and doctors are able to run some screens," he told the newspaper.
Not everybody agrees with Thompson, the Examiner reported, noting that the idea of implanting the chips in live bodies has some veterans’ groups and privacy advocates worried.
"It needs further study,” Joe Davis, a retired Air Force major and a spokesman for the D.C. office of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, told the Examiner.
And Liz McIntyre, co-author with Katherine Albrecht of "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track your Every Move with RFID," said that VeriChip is "a huge threat” to public privacy.
"They’re circling like vultures for any opportunity to get into our flesh,” McIntyre told the Examiner. "They’ll start with people who can’t say no, like the elderly, sex offenders, immigrants, and the military. Then they’ll come knocking on our doors.”
In an e-mail to the Examiner, Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., wrote: "If that is what the Defense Department has in mind for our troops in Iraq, there are many questions that need answers. "What checks and balances, safeguards, and congressional oversight would there be?” Leahy asked. "What less-invasive alternatives are there? What information would be entered on the chips, and could it endanger our soldiers or be intercepted by the enemy?”
The company, the Examiner wrote, is also unsure about the technology. According to company documents, radio frequencies in ambulances and helicopters could disrupt the chips’ transmissions. In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, VeriChip also said it was unsure whether the chip would dislodge and move through a person’s body. It could also cause infections and "adverse tissue reactions,” the SEC filing states.
But Philbin downplayed the danger of the chips.
"It’s the size of a grain of rice,” she said. "It’s like getting a shot of penicillin.”
Editor's note:
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Comment: Notice it can be put in the right hand ;) Are our troops citizens or property?
I wonder if the enemy got a hold of the codes, if they could find them where ever they are. ?

[Richard Owl Mirror]

I've often wondered why we haven't done this to all those enemy combatants we've captured.
Mark'em and let them go back to their lair.

[micfranklin]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: I've often wondered why we haven't done this to all those enemy combatants we've captured.
Mark'em and let them go back to their lair.

And instead we're spying on our own people and it hasn't helped us much, if at all.

[Claudia Schiffer]

I think they should AT THE VERY LEAST have a choice.

[Moracca]

Robodoon wrote: Comment: Notice it can be put in the right hand

People would probably make more of a big deal about it if they were going to put them in the left hand. But really, who cares what hand they go in?

Robodoon wrote: Are our troops citizens or property?

Property. A soldier I served with was given an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment) for "damage to government property" after he got a sun burn so back that he couldn't wear his TA-50.

Robodoon wrote: I wonder if the enemy got a hold of the codes, if they could find them where ever they are.

Nope, they couldn't. The chips being proposed work on a battery that only kicks into life when scanned by the proper scanner. The chips aren't active until scanned. They are the same chips that we put into pets in order to identify them if they run away and are picked up by animal control.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Moracca wrote: Robodoon wrote: Comment: Notice it can be put in the right hand

People would probably make more of a big deal about it if they were going to put them in the left hand. But really, who cares what hand they go in?

Think hes refering to biblical prophecy.

Quote:
Robodoon wrote: Are our troops citizens or property?

Property. A soldier I served with was given an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment) for "damage to government property" after he got a sun burn so back that he couldn't wear his TA-50.

Really, wow. I understand the contractural relationship of being a serviceman, but even still a soilder is a employee, not a piece of goverment property.

Quote:
Robodoon wrote: I wonder if the enemy got a hold of the codes, if they could find them where ever they are.

Nope, they couldn't. The chips being proposed work on a battery that only kicks into life when scanned by the proper scanner. The chips aren't active until scanned. They are the same chips that we put into pets in order to identify them if they run away and are picked up by animal control.
Well, with technology, were there is a will theres a way. I don't think the chips in question will work on a local scanner basis (theres little point to that with the situation in question). More on the global location basis.

[cap'n queasy]

:roll:

Jeez.

[johnflesh]

When they force the chip, people will cut it out. I know I will.

[Moracca]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Moracca wrote: Robodoon wrote: Comment: Notice it can be put in the right hand

People would probably make more of a big deal about it if they were going to put them in the left hand. But really, who cares what hand they go in?

Think hes refering to biblical prophecy.

Quote:
Robodoon wrote: Are our troops citizens or property?

Property. A soldier I served with was given an Article 15 (non-judicial punishment) for "damage to government property" after he got a sun burn so back that he couldn't wear his TA-50.

Really, wow. I understand the contractural relationship of being a serviceman, but even still a soilder is a employee, not a piece of goverment property.

Quote:
Robodoon wrote: I wonder if the enemy got a hold of the codes, if they could find them where ever they are.

Nope, they couldn't. The chips being proposed work on a battery that only kicks into life when scanned by the proper scanner. The chips aren't active until scanned. They are the same chips that we put into pets in order to identify them if they run away and are picked up by animal control.
Well, with technology, were there is a will theres a way. I don't think the chips in question will work on a local scanner basis (theres little point to that with the situation in question). More on the global location basis.

Franz wrote: Think hes refering to biblical prophecy.

I wouldn't know much about that.

Franz wrote: Really, wow. I understand the contractural relationship of being a serviceman, but even still a soilder is a employee, not a piece of goverment property.

The military is a total authoritarian dictatorship, not a liberal democracy. The term "GI" is "Goverment Issue". If you attempt suicide in the military and fail you are also charged with "distruction to government property". You can feel and believe what you wish about the issue, but soldiers are property of the government.

Franz wrote: Well, with technology, were there is a will theres a way. I don't think the chips in question will work on a local scanner basis (theres little point to that with the situation in question). More on the global location basis

Why? The chips they are talking about are using scanners and are being discussed as a way to replace the dog tags that soldiers wear today. Where in tha article does it mention GPS outside of opponents opinions? The RPI chip is a scan based chip, not GPS.

[FarPastGone]

I don't see what difference it makes whether it is transmitting a signal around your neck, built in to your helmet, your shoes, or embedded into your arm. It just seems unnecessary to put the device into the soldiers body, and if it came down to it there would need to be guidelines set into place. How long will the chip remain in the soldiers body after military duty is complete? Will the government offer soldiers free removal of the chips, or will it be done at the end of enlistment? I am sure there are hundreds more issues that could be addressed.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Moracca wrote:

Franz wrote: Think hes refering to biblical prophecy.

I wouldn't know much about that.
Fair enough, think the page hes on is revlations, mark of the beast and all that.

Quote:
Franz wrote: Really, wow. I understand the contractural relationship of being a serviceman, but even still a soilder is a employee, not a piece of goverment property.

The military is a total authoritarian dictatorship, not a liberal democracy. The term "GI" is "Goverment Issue". If you attempt suicide in the military and fail you are also charged with "distruction to government property". You can feel and believe what you wish about the issue, but soldiers are property of the government.

I'd have to consult my friends in the british army, but I get a funny feeling that this policy of being property is a bit unique in nato (woulnt be surpised with china) and I find it a bit worrying crushing the individual and all that, and certainly not part of the nessisary disicpline of an army.

and its all very well simply saying that its my subjective opinion, but that they 'are' property of the u.s govt dosent justify that they should be.

Quote:
Franz wrote: Well, with technology, were there is a will theres a way. I don't think the chips in question will work on a local scanner basis (theres little point to that with the situation in question). More on the global location basis

Why? The chips they are talking about are using scanners and are being discussed as a way to replace the dog tags that soldiers wear today. Where in tha article does it mention GPS outside of opponents opinions? The RPI chip is a scan based chip, not GPS.
I might be wrong here but dosent the u.s armed forces have a 'no man left behind' policy, from what i know said chips can do both (one in my cat dose). Plus dog tags are cool.

Anywho i think the objection in general here is as above what the millitary should be able to do to its employees.

[FarPastGone]

I wouldn't see a problem with it being optional, and building the chip into your dog tags or something along those lines for those soldiers who don't want it implanted in their arm. Basically what franz said, it is above what the military should be allowed to do to its employees.

[Moracca]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Moracca wrote:

Franz wrote: Think hes refering to biblical prophecy.

I wouldn't know much about that.
Fair enough, think the page hes on is revlations, mark of the beast and all that.

Quote:
Franz wrote: Really, wow. I understand the contractural relationship of being a serviceman, but even still a soilder is a employee, not a piece of goverment property.

The military is a total authoritarian dictatorship, not a liberal democracy. The term "GI" is "Goverment Issue". If you attempt suicide in the military and fail you are also charged with "distruction to government property". You can feel and believe what you wish about the issue, but soldiers are property of the government.

I'd have to consult my friends in the british army, but I get a funny feeling that this policy of being property is a bit unique in nato (woulnt be surpised with china) and I find it a bit worrying crushing the individual and all that, and certainly not part of the nessisary disicpline of an army.

and its all very well simply saying that its my subjective opinion, but that they 'are' property of the u.s govt dosent justify that they should be.

Quote:
Franz wrote: Well, with technology, were there is a will theres a way. I don't think the chips in question will work on a local scanner basis (theres little point to that with the situation in question). More on the global location basis

Why? The chips they are talking about are using scanners and are being discussed as a way to replace the dog tags that soldiers wear today. Where in tha article does it mention GPS outside of opponents opinions? The RPI chip is a scan based chip, not GPS.
I might be wrong here but dosent the u.s armed forces have a 'no man left behind' policy, from what i know said chips can do both (one in my cat dose). Plus dog tags are cool.

Anywho i think the objection in general here is as above what the millitary should be able to do to its employees.

Soldiers can say that they won't have the chips put in, but then they'd probably be discharged. Sort of like the anthrax vaccination of a couple of years back. We were required to get one or be punished by Article 15 and eventual discharge. I got the vaccination. Also, America soldiers have also refused to serve under the UN. Same sort of deal, Article 15 and eventual discharge.

[Medius]

Moracca wrote:
The military is a total authoritarian dictatorship, not a liberal democracy. The term "GI" is "Goverment Issue". If you attempt suicide in the military and fail you are also charged with "distruction to government property". You can feel and believe what you wish about the issue, but soldiers are property of the government.

While in general I agree with your assessment, I believe GI is also "General Infantry" as applied to troops and "Government Issue" as applied to gear and supplies.

As for the chip, it seems to me like all this will do is ensure the mutliation of US troops taken prisoner. Enemy soldiers will have to quickly decide whether to execute or dismember troops when it is not convenient to remove the chip through other means.

It seems to me that if they are able to emulate the proper scanner that combining such with a guided missile could produce some disasterous results for our troops.

[BigOMG]

Do any of you realize how beneficial this could be in lets say, a MASH unit? A nurse cold scan a persons hand or shoulder and find out blood type. Allergies. Prior medical procedures. Would reduce time and costs, while ensuring better treatment. Could also remove a serious amount of paperwork and time.

I understand where some of you are "coming" from here, but this idea isn't that bad, for soldiers.

And US soldiers are direct property of the US government. So they could do this to any soldier at any time and they have no choice about it. After they get out different story.
Morraca, I personally gave 1 soldier 2 summarized Article 15's for getting sunburned. He used it as an excuse to miss a movement. I think it was the hardest road march of his life.

[Medius]

BigOMG wrote: Do any of you realize how beneficial this could be in lets say, a MASH unit? A nurse cold scan a persons hand or shoulder and find out blood type. Allergies. Prior medical procedures. Would reduce time and costs, while ensuring better treatment. Could also remove a serious amount of paperwork and time.

I understand where some of you are "coming" from here, but this idea isn't that bad, for soldiers.

And US soldiers are direct property of the US government. So they could do this to any soldier at any time and they have no choice about it. After they get out different story.
Morraca, I personally gave 1 soldier 2 summarized Article 15's for getting sunburned. He used it as an excuse to miss a movement. I think it was the hardest road march of his life.

Beneficial, yes, but the same information could be imprinted on a dog tag or a small dermal patch. There is no reason to surgically implant and it could be detrimental to the well-being of the soldiers.

I don't argue that they could do this to soldiers (though a soldier can claim that it conflicts with his or her religious beliefs as it was not part of the deal when they signed up). While the are, in essence, government property, there is still a large amount of sway the public holds over the treatment of soldiers and their rights.

[Robodoon]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: I've often wondered why we haven't done this to all those enemy combatants we've captured.
Mark'em and let them go back to their lair.


Because we can't it wouldn't be nice :shock: and perhaps would work. :shock:

[Robodoon]

micfranklin wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: I've often wondered why we haven't done this to all those enemy combatants we've captured.
Mark'em and let them go back to their lair.

And instead we're spying on our own people and it hasn't helped us much, if at all.

Well we are the real enemy.

[Robodoon]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: I think they should AT THE VERY LEAST have a choice.

Take it or be court marshalled? http://www.mikenew.com/

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: On Monday the Department of State started to issue electronic passports (e-passports) equipped with RFID chips. According to reports the U.S. government has placed an order with a California company, Infineon Technologies North America, for smart chip-embedded passports.
The Associated Press said the new U.S. passports include an electronic chip that contains all the data contained in the paper version name, birth date, gender, for example and can be read by digital scanners at equipped airports. They cost 14 percent more than their predecessors but the State Department said they will speed up going through Customs and help enhance border security


Is this true - Australia has had electonic passports for about 18 months - and I know the US have had the machines to read them for about 2 years