Political Crossfire Forums

[Silkheat]

Quote: The Power of Morality

Dara Purvis - Raw Story Columnist
Published: Tuesday August 8, 2006


Harvey C. Mansfield, who is, depressingly, a Harvard professor, recently published a book called Manliness, and saw fit to strew pearls of its wisdom before the 2006 graduating class of Hillsdale College. Along with decrying feminists who "seek independence or autonomy" (because "in practice" that means "independence of one's husband and children"—perish the thought of a lack of nuclear family!), Mansfield recommends that we should "recover women's modesty as a virtue." I don't want to be accused of paraphrasing unfairly, so I'll directly quote my favorite two sentences:

"Men's willingness to obey depends on women's being held to a higher standard of morality, especially sexual morality, than men. If a woman cannot say, 'How dare you!' to a man, her defenses are sapped because without a moral objection she has only her whim to rely on."

Here's where the unfair paraphrasing comes in: Is it possible that a professor at Harvard University, a published author whose work was reviewed, albeit mockingly, in the New York Times, seriously proffered the argument that the problem with feminism is that now men don't feel quite as bad about raping women?

It's almost enough to make me wish that I had chosen to attend Harvard Law School instead of their rival in New Haven, so that I could knock on Professor Mansfield's door and ask him whether I, as a former President of USC's Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance, should feel a sense of personal responsibility for sapping the moral outrage that would have otherwise kept a group of American soldiers from raping a 14 year old Iraqi girl before killing her along with her family. Or perhaps whether I served as a bad example to young girls in my hometown—I wonder if the 11 year old girl who was recently gang-raped by a group of athletes from Fresno City College was asking in too masculine a matter for, say, equal pay for equal work.

There are a great many other things I might like to suggest to Professor Mansfield, but from the breathtaking paternalism of his commencement speech, filled with references to women's domesticity and instructing us career ladies how "coming second can be the superior role," it is obvious to me that he is one of those rare breed of academics who has managed to retreat to an ivory tower, only to refuse to read or notice anything that doesn't already agree with him. There is no other explanation I can think of that would account for how he presents the most shop-worn, thoroughly rejected principles of condescending misogyny as though he were coming up with new and exciting theories of social relations.

To those who reside outside the "He-Man Woman Haters Club," however, might I make the radical suggestion that relying on the opposite gender, whatever that gender may be, to set one's moral tone and code is an indication that one—like, say, Professor Mansfield—lacks a moral sense and understanding of one's own? An outside party's outrage should not be the signal that an immoral act has occurred, and as a feminist who believes in the intellectual and moral power of both genders, I feel confident I have thinking society in its entirety behind me when I say: Professor Mansfield, how dare you!
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/The_Power_of_Morality_0808.html




Wow, I bet many a feminist will pick up this guys book, and that is about it. Shock literature does little for me. That is why I give two ***** about Anne Coulter.

However, this knee jerk reaction by the author of this article is a glaring example of feminism. I wish people like this didn't exist.

I guess we are all rapist, and she needs the government to protect her from us. Not that any guy would want what she has, but that is why she is a feminist in the first place.

[StrawHat]

Well, both the Harvard professor and the author of the article have as point, but it's really easy to see that the author of the article just disagreed and felt the need to rebuke Mr. Mansfield.

Mr. Mansfield is correct in saying that in practice independence and autonomy are taken to mean lack of responsibility (read The Awakening. Pissed off every guy in my junior year english class. Of course all the girls loved the book), and the author just looks dumb for mocking the nuclear family. However, he can't say that men's behavior is based on holding women to a higher standard. Men should keep their morals wheter or not women choose not to.

[gemma]

Silkheat wrote: Wow, I bet many a feminist will pick up this guys book, and that is about it.

I certainly won't.

Silkheat wrote: However, this knee jerk reaction by the author of this article is a glaring example of feminism. I wish people like this didn't exist.

A "glaring" example of feminism! Aaaah! My eyes!

No, seriously, it just seems like a glaring example of hearty disagreement in discourse, with a bit of levity and a little indignation thrown in. Not uncommon, not untoward in a book review (is that what it is?) or in fact, punditry or commentary.

Silkheat wrote: I guess we are all rapist, and she needs the government to protect her from us. Not that any guy would want what she has, but that is why she is a feminist in the first place.

Not really sure where you got that.... unless that's just your opinion on all feminists?

[eynon]

Quote: however, might I make the radical suggestion that relying on the opposite gender, whatever that gender may be, to set one's moral tone and code is an indication that one—like, say, Professor Mansfield—lacks a moral sense and understanding of one's own?

well, many do "lack a moral sense and understanding of one's own"....they need others(parents, society, religion, culture, peers) to teach them morality. It'd wouldn't be hard to say that many young men get a "mixed message" on some issues that should be black and white.


Quote: now men don't feel quite as bad about raping women? they don't, for many differnt reasons many young men have a pretty jaded and messed up view of sexuality almost akine to Gengis Khan. I got shown some stuff as a social-worker in Boulder, basically polls among teenage boys over they years as to when it became okto force a woman to have sex. As time progressed the % that answered "never" became smaller and smaller.....this may not be the fault of the feminist movement, but they sure aren't helping.


I remember back in college, there was this big annual "take back the night" event in which student feminists would wander around campus carrying candles and shouting anti-rape slogans......btw only women were allowed to march, a fact resented by many a potentially sympathetic male...but I digress, point was that the activists thought activities like this were great ways to solves the problems they highlighted.....yeah right, like Chad the collar popper not gonna rape his date because a bunch of feminists burned some candals and shouted slogans. Infact it only validated the views of many of the women haters I talked too, a couple I saw watching the percetion mearly smirked and commented about "those silly b*****s."

don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.


Look, I'm a big supporter of the Feminist movement, no person should held back from reaching their full potential due to such a petty issue as sex..........BUT there are camps of feminism(such as the hyper-sexual camp) that aren't helping women out one damn bit.

[gemma]

wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.

[Silkheat]

gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.


I can understand why rape is so frightening, but what we must not allow women to do is to use their fear emotions to propel us into a tyranical police state.

[eynon]

gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.

ah-so....but these were not rapes reported, it was mearly a student poll "have you been sexually assualted during your time at CU" something like 1/3 said yes.

oh-course I'm not trying to link "take back the night" and an increase in rape, my point was simply that some acts taken in the name of rape prevension have no effect.

[gemma]

wannabe wrote: gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.

ah-so....but these were not rapes reported, it was mearly a student poll "have you been sexually assualted during your time at CU" something like 1/3 said yes.

oh-course I'm not trying to link "take back the night" and an increase in rape, my point was simply that some acts taken in the name of rape prevension have no effect.

Point taken. :)

[Shady]

Silkheat wrote: gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.


I can understand why rape is so frightening, but what we must not allow women to do is to use their fear emotions to propel us into a tyranical police state.

In what sense?

[eynon]

gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: gemma wrote: wannabe wrote: btw only women were allowed to march

I believe that is not normal; there were many men participating at my school.

wannabe wrote: don't know about nation-wide, but I do know( I was part of rape pervension and night ride on campus) that since "take back the night" started, the number of women at my university who say that they've been assualted has skyrocketed.

Obviously I can't know everything, but there is a chance that increased awareness and support have led to more rapes being reported, not necessarily more rapes being committed.

ah-so....but these were not rapes reported, it was mearly a student poll "have you been sexually assualted during your time at CU" something like 1/3 said yes.

oh-course I'm not trying to link "take back the night" and an increase in rape, my point was simply that some acts taken in the name of rape prevension have no effect.

Point taken. :)

:-D

what do you think of modern feminism, how would you define a feminist? I've always thought of myself as one, but often find myself at odds with some of the camps.

[gemma]

OK I have a tendency to sound really corny while talking about this stuff, so...

Feminism is (well, as it should be) not about women, but about equality of humanity as a whole. Like the other ideological/organization/what-have-you movements, it works toward the elimination of itself. Once the goal is reached, it is obsolete.

Feminism as a movement is, well... not having been active in any organized feminist institutions, I can't say from an educated perspective.

However, I do think back to my high school days, when I first became aware of having an opinion on abortion, for instance. To me, it was absurd that it would ever be outlawed (no, I was not indoctrinated by my family, this was something that I came to, myself).

Anyway, when I first became aware of the forces of "anti-woman" as I saw them, I was the zealous new convert. I threw my nose up in disgust at high school boys who called girls "chicks" etc. I became ultra-sensitive to any sort of slight in this way.

I've grown since then, and perhaps I've grown complacent rather than compromising. But I do not get offended at these things anymore; I do, though, recognize that there are those individuals and groups who have not gotten past this. So I have sympathy there.

It may be a sign of being so much more confident in myself as a woman that I can accept so many interpretations of what a woman is; then again, it could be laziness in fighting the stereotypes.

Once again a lame metaphor: The pendulum swings, and sometimes it swings too far (ie the "feminazis" perception), but eventually finds equilibrium. We may just be still in the swinging part. :?

[eynon]

gemma wrote: OK I have a tendency to sound really corny while talking about this stuff, so...

Feminism is (well, as it should be) not about women, but about equality of humanity as a whole. Like the other ideological/organization/what-have-you movements, it works toward the elimination of itself. Once the goal is reached, it is obsolete.

Feminism as a movement is, well... not having been active in any organized feminist institutions, I can't say from an educated perspective.

However, I do think back to my high school days, when I first became aware of having an opinion on abortion, for instance. To me, it was absurd that it would ever be outlawed (no, I was not indoctrinated by my family, this was something that I came to, myself).

Anyway, when I first became aware of the forces of "anti-woman" as I saw them, I was the zealous new convert. I threw my nose up in disgust at high school boys who called girls "chicks" etc. I became ultra-sensitive to any sort of slight in this way.

I've grown since then, and perhaps I've grown complacent rather than compromising. But I do not get offended at these things anymore; I do, though, recognize that there are those individuals and groups who have not gotten past this. So I have sympathy there.

It may be a sign of being so much more confident in myself as a woman that I can accept so many interpretations of what a woman is; then again, it could be laziness in fighting the stereotypes.

Once again a lame metaphor: The pendulum swings, and sometimes it swings too far (ie the "feminazis" perception), but eventually finds equilibrium. We may just be still in the swinging part. :?

sorry it took me awhile to get back to you(I'm busy building a deck and searching for a job) :wink:

I don't think your response is corny at all :-D

My personal line of thinking when it comes to feminism has less to do with my view of sex then my general view of humanity.

I believe deeply that people should live in an enviornment where they can reach their full potential, regardless of sex, race, ect.......more-over I see a lot of women in our society wasting their potential due to sexism and such, ergo I feel pretty strong about some feminist issues.

I've done a little work in the trenches so to speak, I worked for a couple years at a domestic abuse shelter in college. That was pretty intense......and I wish I could say it ended well(it started great), but towards the end I butted heads with a bunch of more radical feminists(I call them Bubble-fems) who resented my white-knight attitude.

That was before I lived in China and came face to face with a society that seriously abuses women(lots and lots of violent sexual explotation going on over there).

hey, another question.....while I believe that every person is a unique individual do you believe that there are tendancies among the sexes in terms of thoughts, desires, ect?

[gemma]

wannabe wrote: hey, another question.....while I believe that every person is a unique individual do you believe that there are tendancies among the sexes in terms of thoughts, desires, ect?

I have not done any research in this regard, so I am not readily equipped to say "nature or nurture" for sure.

I know my brother-in-law forbade the Barbies that my nephew liked playing with; I know that my own family thought it strange (but did not forbid) I liked Matchboxes and toy trucks and things. Did I grow out of the trucks as soon as I would have? Or did I see more acceptance from my peers/my sister when I picked up a Barbie instead? Subtle and harmless pressures, right?

One can see in a general sense that women are more outwardly sympathetic, more able to multitask, more apt to compromise than to confront; men are more action-oriented, focused, assertive, etc.

I am willing to buy the argument that historically, the two roles complimented each other for the survival of the species, and therefore has been cultivated. And, programmed into us to some extent, seeing as how the biological and physiological differences reinforce the separation of duties.

We can see these things. But we can also accept that a woman who is assertive is no less a woman, and a man who is "in touch with his feelings" is no less a man. I think there is a lot of talk around, those who see no need for feminism as a movement or an attitude, "Of course a woman can be assertive and a man can have feelings! Shut up and move on!" At the risk of sounding preachy and strange, I don't think everyone has taken it to heart.

Not that everyone has to think exactly like I do. But if we did just shut up and move on, the very subtle discrimination (nothing like China or Afghanistan or many other places, I imagine!!) which still occurs will never go away.

We don't need to remember anymore that men ought to be one way and women ought to be another way, for the survival of the species. IMHO. But, due to whatever forces over time, they in general are one way and another.

I think of things like (daytime) television commercials. Typically an advertisement shows a woman happy with her shining floors using the product advertised. The day that even you and I don't find it unusual to see a man in a commercial happy with his shining floors? Well... our work (in this country!) would be done.

I think there are much more insidious forms of misogyny than that example, of course. But for the most part this country has made great strides in comparison. That is, until you read Ann Coulter or whatever. Then you just have to scratch your head and wonder.

There is an unbridgeable gap occasionally. For instance, feminists see reproductive control as a feminist issue, an empowerment issue, a moral right; others see it as the destruction of society due to a moral objection.

[eynon]

Quote: I think of things like (daytime) television commercials. Typically an advertisement shows a woman happy with her shining floors using the product advertised. The day that even you and I don't find it unusual to see a man in a commercial happy with his shining floors? Well... our work (in this country!) would be done.


:lol: I love it when my floors are shiny.....good stuff I'll respond to it when I got so more time.