Political Crossfire Forums

Lord Hargreaves · Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: What immigration problem?

Conservative Immigration spokesman Damien Green has said the government should limit workers rights to immigrants who wish to come to the UK from Bulgaria and Romania should those countries be admitted to the EU in 2007. He said a new influx could put unacceptable pressure on public services, on school places, on the provision of housing, which causes big problems for certain local communities

The government meanwhile it says it hasn't decided whether it will impose restrictions, but Trade secretary Alistair Darling did outline Labour's position:

Quote: What we need to do is balance the skills that we require - and yes, our economy does require skills in various areas - and at the same time having a system that is properly managed so we can take care of all the other things we need to consider, like the healthcare system, the education system and so on

I'm going to stick my neck out on this one. I think the main arguments of both parties betray that essentially this isn't an immigration problem at all, its a welfare state problem. It is not the number of immigrants in the UK that is cause for concern, but more simply, the number of people in the UK, period.

As population increases, there are more people to treat for "free", more children to school for "free", more people need to be provided with housing for "free". What the code behind all this is that inflexible state socialism cannot cope with the flexible labour market.

There truly is a serious problem here, but it isn't an "immigration" problem.

Ssushi · Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 5677

I agree with you in terms of each country having a practical limit on the amount of people it can suport, however - if all thepeople in a country work and pay tax, then in theory, the country dhould be able to support the people. However, we don't all work. I'm not really sure on the numbers, when considering the %ages of immigrants working and not - I suspect the government simply cannot say. Maybe if we had a ID card scheme, they's have a better chance (throws handgranade and runs for cover).

I do believe that we should be restricting people on the basis of skills needed though, but then again, if we have people who are out if work, why can't we (re) skill them?

Lord Hargreaves · Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:

Ssushi wrote: I agree with you in terms of each country having a practical limit on the amount of people it can suport, however - if all thepeople in a country work and pay tax, then in theory, the country dhould be able to support the people. However, we don't all work. I'm not really sure on the numbers, when considering the %ages of immigrants working and not - I suspect the government simply cannot say. Maybe if we had a ID card scheme, they's have a better chance (throws handgranade and runs for cover).

I do believe that we should be restricting people on the basis of skills needed though, but then again, if we have people who are out if work, why can't we (re) skill them?

I think there will have to be restrictions on population eventually, but we are no where near that time. Thats not really the point i was going for.

Rather the issue is the state is struggling to support the population, so either you enlarge the state or control/limit the population. Neither of these is appealing, though both parties feel the former less of the two.

The situation we have at the moment, where because the state is paying "natives" not to work, the state cannot offer any support to migrants seeking a better life, is absurd. Instead of treating people differently and unfairly, by saying immigrants cannot enjoy the same benefits "natives" can, why not just deny benefits to everyone?

The country can cope with immigration, the government cannot. The best way to ease the issue is i believe privatisation.

On ID cards, not going to go there. We get so much illegal immigration because the government is so breathtakingly incompetent in dealing with legal immigration. It should be more simple and easy, both to apply and gain entry, and to get rejected and deported

Lastly, i'm highly skeptical with the idea that we should restrict immigration based on the skills we need. Our economy doesnt work like that, how does the government know what skills we need? im not saying im against the principle, but i am saying i dont understand how its practically possible

antonio62 · Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject:

I don't think we're encountering a welfare state problem merely a government which cant react quickly. Most of the immigrants don't put much of a strain on public services (being manly young and having no children). They also contribute huge amounts of money to paying for them. It is simply that government efficiency needs to improve to stop this being a problem.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1458 Location: UK / Hungary

What a lot of people should realise is a lot of these immigrants particularly from Eastern Europe will work here for a couple of years and then go back home when they have saved the money the want. The media are screaming about how many are coming but they key figure is how many actually stay for a lifetime, which you will probably find is relatively low.