Political Crossfire Forums

[XxMorningStarxX]

I apologize in advance if this may somehow offend anyone.


In the world there are the righteous and the unrighteous. According to Christian Canon, those who believe in the lord Jesus Christ will be saved and are deemed righteous. Those who do NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be damned for eternity and are deemed unrighteous and throw into the Lake of Fire. Christian Canon suggests that those who were not "exposed" to the teachings of the Gospels are exempt from punishment in Hell (or the Lake of Fire/Eternal darkness) because they never knew about Jesus. Well, naturally i asked myself: "What about the Jews then," I'm pretty sure every single Jew on Earth has heard about the Gospels and Jesus, and many have probably experienced Christians preaching them, yet Judaism's official stance is STILL that Jesus as the savior of mankind is essentially heresy.... because if they didn't think this way, they'd be Christians wouldn't they? Does this mean all Jews go to Hell? Does this mean all Muslims go to Hell? Well apparently according to many Christians, THEY DO, AND WILL.

Well, i don't know about you but i've always had this vision of God as the epitome of Mercy, forgiveness, justice. etc. etc. because this is the very definition of what it means to be God.

Keeping the above in mind, the fact that God would condemn all non-believers to Hell is just unbelievable. So this means... regardless of whether you live your life being perfectly righteous, if you don't accept Jesus by no fault of your own (for instance, growing up and being indoctrinated that Jesus is a fraud, therefore rejecting Jesus even when taught about Him), you go to Hell? This does not fit in with a merciful, understanding and forgiving God.

Nonbelievers and skeptics are demonized for being "fools," But consider this: Do you seriously believe that, if you were a Jew present at the time of Jesus's crucifixion, and you had never SEEN his miracles, that you would come forth and instantly believe Jesus is the Son of God? It is 100 percent guaranteed that if you were in that crowd with the same life experience as the others in that crowd, YOU TOO would be calling for Jesus's crucifixion! Now don't tell me that if you were there, you'd somehow be the special one with the Light of God shining through and automatically see Jesus as the Son of God! This is absolute nonsense and you would seriously be overestimating your self worth. This in turn reflects on the injustice of belief according to canon- in a sense, being saved is like winning the lottery- you had to be born at the right place and at the right time.

And yet, these people, these people who called for the death of Jesus, are constantly demonized, and seing how many of them did not receive the Lord Jesus, it must mean according to canon that they are in Hell right?

Now, you'd think God would understand this situation, but according to canon, it becomes apparent that God is portrayed as being not understanding of the human condition. For humans are easily brainwashed and extremely suceptible to indoctrination.

Do you think that, if your parents were atheists and everybody around you were atheist and everything you learned denounced God, that you would start believing the moment you heard mention of the Gospels?Absolutely not! This situation by the way, is very prevalent in our society.

Now you may argue in two ways
1) "well if i was in that situation, i would just know that there is a God"- Well, does this mean that you were BORN differently than that hypothetical atheist-raised person who was in your shoes? After all, you've experienced the EXACT same things, which means that the only changing variable here is your NATURE. Meaning you were thus BORN with a greater capacity for good than the other kid. This in essence contradicts free will which in essence contradicts the Bible's idea about Free will. (For if Men were born morally differently, then what's the point of punishing good and bad? they were destined to be this way)
2) "Well what are YOU trying to say? That nonbelievers are excused? That bad people are excused?" No this is really not what im saying. I am not looking for an excuse for bad people, i mean if they are bad, they're bad right? Bad isn't good, bad is not excusable, not excusable in the world of MAN that is. Because if a serial killer tried to murder you, you're not going to attempt to justify his upbringing and let him kill you! That would be utterly foolish. No, you'd fight to defend yourself! However, you should UNDERSTAND his upbringing and forgive to a certain extent. Of course, since we are humans, these serial killers directly affect our lives. We thus cannot excuse them. But God can, God has perfect understanding.
Likewise, if a person is an atheist, there are usually very good reasons for it. You should try to understand these reasons. FOr example, It is known that when soldiers experience war, they lose faith because they have literally seen Hell. The vast majority of people would experience the same, and don't delude yourself that you wouldn't. ANYONE is suceptible for losing faith given a decent level of damaging exposure.

All i'm saying is, God being all merciful and all understanding, must understand these things. Would God send the War Veteran, who has sacrificed so much for his ideal, and perhaps HIS FAMILY, to the Lake of Fire for not believing?? AND IF YOU ARGUE that this is an extrenuating circumstance, an exception, then what isn't?? An almighty and merciful God must realize that all humans have vices, and in the end HE is the entity that lays down judgement.

Did the War veteran choose to go to Hell? No. Choosing to not believe in Lord Jesus is totally different than saying "Um yeah, i want to go to Hell and burn forever." The Veteran was forced to get a glimpse of Hell, and he was shocked by it so much as to lose faith in a God who would allow it.

So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.

These people don't deserve Eternal Damnation. A lifetime of faults does not justify ETERNAL damnation no matter how much s**t you have committed.

Hitler does not deserve Eternal damnation, though is was the most wicked man alive. Stalin does not deserve Eternal Damnation. In the eyes of men they are wicked beyond comprehension, but in the Eyes of God, who has seen much and understands all, eternity is a long time, and surely anybody, ANYBODY, can change. [/b][/i]

[MJB]

No problem. :wink:

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[Aqualung]

Quote: So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.
I believe that the eternal darkness is reserved for Satan and his minions, those who blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. This is the unforgivable sin, so punishment wouldn't stop.

[toddytodd]

I believe the mercy and punishment of God is totally misunderstood. Meaning that the belief of 'accept Jesus or you are SOL' isn't entirely correct. As a couple of posters have already said, God is merciful beyond our understanding. To put a limit on his mercy is, I believe, a miscalculation.

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: I believe the mercy and punishment of God is totally misunderstood. Meaning that the belief of 'accept Jesus or you are SOL' isn't entirely correct. As a couple of posters have already said, God is merciful beyond our understanding. To put a limit on his mercy is, I believe, a miscalculation.

To put no limit is to create your own God, which is fine but not relevant to Christianity.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: I believe the mercy and punishment of God is totally misunderstood. Meaning that the belief of 'accept Jesus or you are SOL' isn't entirely correct. As a couple of posters have already said, God is merciful beyond our understanding. To put a limit on his mercy is, I believe, a miscalculation.

To put no limit is to create your own God, which is fine but not relevant to Christianity.

Exactly my point

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: I believe the mercy and punishment of God is totally misunderstood. Meaning that the belief of 'accept Jesus or you are SOL' isn't entirely correct. As a couple of posters have already said, God is merciful beyond our understanding. To put a limit on his mercy is, I believe, a miscalculation.

To put no limit is to create your own God, which is fine but not relevant to Christianity.

Exactly my point

I don't necessarily disagree with you completely, and I do not quote Bible passages very often but this one is hard to ignore relative to your assertion.


Mark

16:15. And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.


Seems fairly cut and dried for those that have the choice of believing or not don't you think?

[melchizedek22]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: I apologize in advance if this may somehow offend anyone.


In the world there are the righteous and the unrighteous. According to Christian Canon, those who believe in the lord Jesus Christ will be saved and are deemed righteous. Those who do NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be damned for eternity and are deemed unrighteous and throw into the Lake of Fire. Christian Canon suggests that those who were not "exposed" to the teachings of the Gospels are exempt from punishment in Hell (or the Lake of Fire/Eternal darkness) because they never knew about Jesus. Well, naturally i asked myself: "What about the Jews then," I'm pretty sure every single Jew on Earth has heard about the Gospels and Jesus, and many have probably experienced Christians preaching them, yet Judaism's official stance is STILL that Jesus as the savior of mankind is essentially heresy.... because if they didn't think this way, they'd be Christians wouldn't they? Does this mean all Jews go to Hell? Does this mean all Muslims go to Hell? Well apparently according to many Christians, THEY DO, AND WILL.

Well, i don't know about you but i've always had this vision of God as the epitome of Mercy, forgiveness, justice. etc. etc. because this is the very definition of what it means to be God.

Keeping the above in mind, the fact that God would condemn all non-believers to Hell is just unbelievable. So this means... regardless of whether you live your life being perfectly righteous, if you don't accept Jesus by no fault of your own (for instance, growing up and being indoctrinated that Jesus is a fraud, therefore rejecting Jesus even when taught about Him), you go to Hell? This does not fit in with a merciful, understanding and forgiving God.

Nonbelievers and skeptics are demonized for being "fools," But consider this: Do you seriously believe that, if you were a Jew present at the time of Jesus's crucifixion, and you had never SEEN his miracles, that you would come forth and instantly believe Jesus is the Son of God? It is 100 percent guaranteed that if you were in that crowd with the same life experience as the others in that crowd, YOU TOO would be calling for Jesus's crucifixion! Now don't tell me that if you were there, you'd somehow be the special one with the Light of God shining through and automatically see Jesus as the Son of God! This is absolute nonsense and you would seriously be overestimating your self worth. This in turn reflects on the injustice of belief according to canon- in a sense, being saved is like winning the lottery- you had to be born at the right place and at the right time.

And yet, these people, these people who called for the death of Jesus, are constantly demonized, and seing how many of them did not receive the Lord Jesus, it must mean according to canon that they are in Hell right?

Now, you'd think God would understand this situation, but according to canon, it becomes apparent that God is portrayed as being not understanding of the human condition. For humans are easily brainwashed and extremely suceptible to indoctrination.

Do you think that, if your parents were atheists and everybody around you were atheist and everything you learned denounced God, that you would start believing the moment you heard mention of the Gospels?Absolutely not! This situation by the way, is very prevalent in our society.

Now you may argue in two ways
1) "well if i was in that situation, i would just know that there is a God"- Well, does this mean that you were BORN differently than that hypothetical atheist-raised person who was in your shoes? After all, you've experienced the EXACT same things, which means that the only changing variable here is your NATURE. Meaning you were thus BORN with a greater capacity for good than the other kid. This in essence contradicts free will which in essence contradicts the Bible's idea about Free will. (For if Men were born morally differently, then what's the point of punishing good and bad? they were destined to be this way)
2) "Well what are YOU trying to say? That nonbelievers are excused? That bad people are excused?" No this is really not what im saying. I am not looking for an excuse for bad people, i mean if they are bad, they're bad right? Bad isn't good, bad is not excusable, not excusable in the world of MAN that is. Because if a serial killer tried to murder you, you're not going to attempt to justify his upbringing and let him kill you! That would be utterly foolish. No, you'd fight to defend yourself! However, you should UNDERSTAND his upbringing and forgive to a certain extent. Of course, since we are humans, these serial killers directly affect our lives. We thus cannot excuse them. But God can, God has perfect understanding.
Likewise, if a person is an atheist, there are usually very good reasons for it. You should try to understand these reasons. FOr example, It is known that when soldiers experience war, they lose faith because they have literally seen Hell. The vast majority of people would experience the same, and don't delude yourself that you wouldn't. ANYONE is suceptible for losing faith given a decent level of damaging exposure.

All i'm saying is, God being all merciful and all understanding, must understand these things. Would God send the War Veteran, who has sacrificed so much for his ideal, and perhaps HIS FAMILY, to the Lake of Fire for not believing?? AND IF YOU ARGUE that this is an extrenuating circumstance, an exception, then what isn't?? An almighty and merciful God must realize that all humans have vices, and in the end HE is the entity that lays down judgement.

Did the War veteran choose to go to Hell? No. Choosing to not believe in Lord Jesus is totally different than saying "Um yeah, i want to go to Hell and burn forever." The Veteran was forced to get a glimpse of Hell, and he was shocked by it so much as to lose faith in a God who would allow it.

So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.

These people don't deserve Eternal Damnation. A lifetime of faults does not justify ETERNAL damnation no matter how much s**t you have committed.

Hitler does not deserve Eternal damnation, though is was the most wicked man alive. Stalin does not deserve Eternal Damnation. In the eyes of men they are wicked beyond comprehension, but in the Eyes of God, who has seen much and understands all, eternity is a long time, and surely anybody, ANYBODY, can change. [/b][/i]

The Jews don't realize Jesus is the Passover Lamb,because YHWH is not done telling his story thru them they will however see Jesus is the Messiah see Zech 12 vs 10

[XxMorningStarxX]

melchizedek22 wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: I apologize in advance if this may somehow offend anyone.


In the world there are the righteous and the unrighteous. According to Christian Canon, those who believe in the lord Jesus Christ will be saved and are deemed righteous. Those who do NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be damned for eternity and are deemed unrighteous and throw into the Lake of Fire. Christian Canon suggests that those who were not "exposed" to the teachings of the Gospels are exempt from punishment in Hell (or the Lake of Fire/Eternal darkness) because they never knew about Jesus. Well, naturally i asked myself: "What about the Jews then," I'm pretty sure every single Jew on Earth has heard about the Gospels and Jesus, and many have probably experienced Christians preaching them, yet Judaism's official stance is STILL that Jesus as the savior of mankind is essentially heresy.... because if they didn't think this way, they'd be Christians wouldn't they? Does this mean all Jews go to Hell? Does this mean all Muslims go to Hell? Well apparently according to many Christians, THEY DO, AND WILL.

Well, i don't know about you but i've always had this vision of God as the epitome of Mercy, forgiveness, justice. etc. etc. because this is the very definition of what it means to be God.

Keeping the above in mind, the fact that God would condemn all non-believers to Hell is just unbelievable. So this means... regardless of whether you live your life being perfectly righteous, if you don't accept Jesus by no fault of your own (for instance, growing up and being indoctrinated that Jesus is a fraud, therefore rejecting Jesus even when taught about Him), you go to Hell? This does not fit in with a merciful, understanding and forgiving God.

Nonbelievers and skeptics are demonized for being "fools," But consider this: Do you seriously believe that, if you were a Jew present at the time of Jesus's crucifixion, and you had never SEEN his miracles, that you would come forth and instantly believe Jesus is the Son of God? It is 100 percent guaranteed that if you were in that crowd with the same life experience as the others in that crowd, YOU TOO would be calling for Jesus's crucifixion! Now don't tell me that if you were there, you'd somehow be the special one with the Light of God shining through and automatically see Jesus as the Son of God! This is absolute nonsense and you would seriously be overestimating your self worth. This in turn reflects on the injustice of belief according to canon- in a sense, being saved is like winning the lottery- you had to be born at the right place and at the right time.

And yet, these people, these people who called for the death of Jesus, are constantly demonized, and seing how many of them did not receive the Lord Jesus, it must mean according to canon that they are in Hell right?

Now, you'd think God would understand this situation, but according to canon, it becomes apparent that God is portrayed as being not understanding of the human condition. For humans are easily brainwashed and extremely suceptible to indoctrination.

Do you think that, if your parents were atheists and everybody around you were atheist and everything you learned denounced God, that you would start believing the moment you heard mention of the Gospels?Absolutely not! This situation by the way, is very prevalent in our society.

Now you may argue in two ways
1) "well if i was in that situation, i would just know that there is a God"- Well, does this mean that you were BORN differently than that hypothetical atheist-raised person who was in your shoes? After all, you've experienced the EXACT same things, which means that the only changing variable here is your NATURE. Meaning you were thus BORN with a greater capacity for good than the other kid. This in essence contradicts free will which in essence contradicts the Bible's idea about Free will. (For if Men were born morally differently, then what's the point of punishing good and bad? they were destined to be this way)
2) "Well what are YOU trying to say? That nonbelievers are excused? That bad people are excused?" No this is really not what im saying. I am not looking for an excuse for bad people, i mean if they are bad, they're bad right? Bad isn't good, bad is not excusable, not excusable in the world of MAN that is. Because if a serial killer tried to murder you, you're not going to attempt to justify his upbringing and let him kill you! That would be utterly foolish. No, you'd fight to defend yourself! However, you should UNDERSTAND his upbringing and forgive to a certain extent. Of course, since we are humans, these serial killers directly affect our lives. We thus cannot excuse them. But God can, God has perfect understanding.
Likewise, if a person is an atheist, there are usually very good reasons for it. You should try to understand these reasons. FOr example, It is known that when soldiers experience war, they lose faith because they have literally seen Hell. The vast majority of people would experience the same, and don't delude yourself that you wouldn't. ANYONE is suceptible for losing faith given a decent level of damaging exposure.

All i'm saying is, God being all merciful and all understanding, must understand these things. Would God send the War Veteran, who has sacrificed so much for his ideal, and perhaps HIS FAMILY, to the Lake of Fire for not believing?? AND IF YOU ARGUE that this is an extrenuating circumstance, an exception, then what isn't?? An almighty and merciful God must realize that all humans have vices, and in the end HE is the entity that lays down judgement.

Did the War veteran choose to go to Hell? No. Choosing to not believe in Lord Jesus is totally different than saying "Um yeah, i want to go to Hell and burn forever." The Veteran was forced to get a glimpse of Hell, and he was shocked by it so much as to lose faith in a God who would allow it.

So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.

These people don't deserve Eternal Damnation. A lifetime of faults does not justify ETERNAL damnation no matter how much s**t you have committed.

Hitler does not deserve Eternal damnation, though is was the most wicked man alive. Stalin does not deserve Eternal Damnation. In the eyes of men they are wicked beyond comprehension, but in the Eyes of God, who has seen much and understands all, eternity is a long time, and surely anybody, ANYBODY, can change. [/b][/i]

The Jews don't realize Jesus is the Passover Lamb,because YHWH is not done telling his story thru them they will however see Jesus is the Messiah see Zech 12 vs 10

well some of my friends are Jewish, tehy are very much educated about Christianity. Any educated Jew (and so, VAST MAJORITY of them. i've come to realize that Jews are very highly educated) knows that Jesus is the passover lamb etc. etc. They have also been educated about the New Testament. THey just don't believe it.

If you're going to argue based on what people "realize," then obviously the vast majority of nonbelievers in this country have heard and know about Jesus, well, they just don't "realize" it? So in the end no one perishes in the lake of fire, because generally nonbelievers just don't realize it.... and those that openly rebel against GOd just don't realize that God loves them right?

See this is the problem at hand. I've asked some CHristians about Hell and the Lake of Fire, the obvious injustice here is: Well what happens to all those who grew up in Communist China? THey are officially atheists by default of state, they don't even know about Lord Jesus- does that mean they go to hell? WEll some optimistic Christians tell me, no, they're automatically saved (lol). SO in a sense by telling these people about God, you are essentially not helping them but you are dooming them to the possibility of the Lake of Fire- whats the point of trying to save them when they are already saved?

BUT, if God actually dooms those nonbelievers-not-by-their-own-fault, then this is just plain screwed up.

SO you see either way it is pretty screwed up and completely riddled with contradictions.

[XxMorningStarxX]

CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.
I believe that the eternal darkness is reserved for Satan and his minions, those who blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. This is the unforgivable sin, so punishment wouldn't stop.

The funny thing is here, that when i talk to some Christians, they say: "it doesn't matter what you believe" your opinion doesn't matter, the Bible matters, because opinion divides people.

WHen i try to point out some problems of interpretation in the wording of the Bible- they just say, Ok, don't think, just read. I bet even if i read the whole thing and still stood by my "opinion" they wouldj ust be like:

"You didn't read carefully enough" And they will maintain this until i revert to "their" views.

Golly Gee Whiz.....


I mean there are OBVIOUSLY parts ot the BIble not meant to be taken literally

For instance in Genesis about the Tower of Babel. The tower's height is written, in the Book of Jubilee, to be equivalent to like 5433 cubits and 2 palms (8,150 feet, 2,484 meters high). Ok, the purpose of the tower,moreover, was clearly to DEFY God, therefore God could not have intervened in the building of the tower. Satan only works THROUGH people, Satan can't manipulate the molecules of God's World and Creation. Therefore, one can conclude that it was people, under their own power, who built the tower (with Satan's incentive at heart) However, it is PHYSICALLY impossible to build such a tall tower with stone/granite or what have you. PHYSICALOLY IMPOSSIBLE. the tower would collapse unto itself. No matter how motivated people were, it is simply physically impossible to do such a thing.

[/b]

[Todd D.]

Quote: For instance in Genesis about the Tower of Babel. The tower's height is written, in the Book of Jubilee, to be equivalent to like 5433 cubits and 2 palms (8,150 feet, 2,484 meters high). Ok, the purpose of the tower,moreover, was clearly to DEFY God, therefore God could not have intervened in the building of the tower. Satan only works THROUGH people, Satan can't manipulate the molecules of God's World and Creation. Therefore, one can conclude that it was people, under their own power, who built the tower (with Satan's incentive at heart) However, it is PHYSICALLY impossible to build such a tall tower with stone/granite or what have you. PHYSICALOLY IMPOSSIBLE. the tower would collapse unto itself. No matter how motivated people were, it is simply physically impossible to do such a thing.
For most Christians, the Book of Jubilees is not canonical, so there is no issue. To the best of my knowledge, only the Oriental Orthodox Church considers it to be part of the Bible, and no sane person would ever consider the Oriental Orthodox of being strict literalists when it comes to Biblical Interpretation.

I agree that there are aspects of the Bible that are clearly not to be taken literally, but your example here is an awful one.

[XxMorningStarxX]

Todd D. wrote: Quote: For instance in Genesis about the Tower of Babel. The tower's height is written, in the Book of Jubilee, to be equivalent to like 5433 cubits and 2 palms (8,150 feet, 2,484 meters high). Ok, the purpose of the tower,moreover, was clearly to DEFY God, therefore God could not have intervened in the building of the tower. Satan only works THROUGH people, Satan can't manipulate the molecules of God's World and Creation. Therefore, one can conclude that it was people, under their own power, who built the tower (with Satan's incentive at heart) However, it is PHYSICALLY impossible to build such a tall tower with stone/granite or what have you. PHYSICALOLY IMPOSSIBLE. the tower would collapse unto itself. No matter how motivated people were, it is simply physically impossible to do such a thing.
For most Christians, the Book of Jubilees is not canonical, so there is no issue. To the best of my knowledge, only the Oriental Orthodox Church considers it to be part of the Bible, and no sane person would ever consider the Oriental Orthodox of being strict literalists when it comes to Biblical Interpretation.

I agree that there are aspects of the Bible that are clearly not to be taken literally, but your example here is an awful one.

sorry, i always heard from friend that book of jubilee was canonical

-_-

i guess oriental orthodox would explain a bit rofl

[John]

melchizedek22 wrote: The Jews don't realize Jesus is the Passover Lamb,because YHWH is not done telling his story thru them they will however see Jesus is the Messiah see Zech 12 vs 10

That's right. :tu:

[melchizedek22]

John wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: The Jews don't realize Jesus is the Passover Lamb,because YHWH is not done telling his story thru them they will however see Jesus is the Messiah see Zech 12 vs 10

That's right. :tu:

Its as if the Jews were never suppose to accept Jesus at the first coming,because history seems to show the first coming is to save the Gentiles,at the end of the age of the gentiles Elijah will come,the Elijah of Malchi 4 vs 5 and at the second coming ,the Jews will except Jesus as the Messiah

[Aqualung]

XxMorningStarxX wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Quote: So this brings us to another question. If God is to be absolutely victorious over Satan and Evil, then why would there remain a Hell, or a lake of fire, in which unfortunate souls are to be thrown into? THe ETERNAL existence of the lake of fire significes one thing- that God, according to Canon, is perfectly OK to have evil remain there in order to cast souls into it. God has the power to eliminate the lake of fire altogether, obviously, but yet HE doesn't.
I believe that the eternal darkness is reserved for Satan and his minions, those who blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. This is the unforgivable sin, so punishment wouldn't stop.

The funny thing is here, that when i talk to some Christians, they say: "it doesn't matter what you believe" your opinion doesn't matter, the Bible matters, because opinion divides people.
Well, isn't that simply the manifestion of their belief of the "right" interpretation of scripture?

Quote: WHen i try to point out some problems of interpretation in the wording of the Bible- they just say, Ok, don't think, just read. I bet even if i read the whole thing and still stood by my "opinion" they wouldj ust be like:

"You didn't read carefully enough" And they will maintain this until i revert to "their" views.
Yeah, that happens to me A LOT. And I agree, it is pretty rediculous.

[John]

melchizedek22 wrote: John wrote: melchizedek22 wrote: The Jews don't realize Jesus is the Passover Lamb,because YHWH is not done telling his story thru them they will however see Jesus is the Messiah see Zech 12 vs 10

That's right. :tu:

Its as if the Jews were never suppose to accept Jesus at the first coming,because history seems to show the first coming is to save the Gentiles,at the end of the age of the gentiles Elijah will come,the Elijah of Malchi 4 vs 5 and at the second coming ,the Jews will except Jesus as the Messiah

There will be no second coming until they call upon Him to save them.

Matthew 23
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

Also see Lev 26:40, Jeremiah 3:13, 50:4, Hosea 5:15, Deut 4:30 and Zech 12:10

[Lumina]

I am a person of simple faith. I don't have all the answers, and I am certainly no Biblical scholar. But here is a prayer I say daily, the Prayer of Fatima:

"Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."

Often when I talk to my brothers and sisters, particularly my Protestant ones, they talk about our "hardness of heart." As a simple person, though, I have to believe that our understanding is only partial and only through Christ. I believe fervently that God, the Creator and Father of us all, truly desires ALL of His children to find their way home.

I have also learned, only through living in "middle age," frankly, that the sins I see in others truly are "splinters" compared to the blinding "planks" in my own eyes.

I believe that our Father understands the unique challenges each one of us faces, and I urge us all not to focus on the "jots and tittles" of others but, rather, on renewing our efforts daily to perfect ourselves.

[MJB]

Lumina wrote: I am a person of simple faith. I don't have all the answers, and I am certainly no Biblical scholar. But here is a prayer I say daily, the Prayer of Fatima:

"Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."

Often when I talk to my brothers and sisters, particularly my Protestant ones, they talk about our "hardness of heart." As a simple person, though, I have to believe that our understanding is only partial and only through Christ. I believe fervently that God, the Creator and Father of us all, truly desires ALL of His children to find their way home.

I have also learned, only through living in "middle age," frankly, that the sins I see in others truly are "splinters" compared to the blinding "planks" in my own eyes.

I believe that our Father understands the unique challenges each one of us faces, and I urge us all not to focus on the "jots and tittles" of others but, rather, on renewing our efforts daily to perfect ourselves.

Beautifully said. :wink:

[MeiCelestial]

I agree that it is difficult to understand how someone raised without hearing of Jesus Christ is more richteous than anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ. That means that someone raised with no social morals and no caring for his brothers and sisters is still allowed into heaving because he was not given the chance to accept Jesus, whereas someone who has lived their life only for those around them, completely selflessly, is still not richteous of heaven. Not only are they not richteous of heaven, they are also deservant of eternal damnation. If this is the case, then what is God's purpose for giving us morals in the first place? If the purpose of our life is to serve God and be granted immortality in heaven, why be capable of caring for one another at all?