Political Crossfire Forums

[Blinky]

[quote="Lumina"] Blinky wrote: Lumina wrote: What peaceful, silent protest looks like:



I wouldn't have a problem with anti-abortion protests if they all looked like that. Sadly however, a lot of them consist of angry mobs of self righteous sticky-beaks waving placards with pictures of dead babies and displaying models of partly formed fetuses, while calling women attending the clinics murderers and baby-killers.
Its atrocious, and likely to do little but emotionally scar the woman trying to go through with what is already a difficult decision.

Lumina wrote: I am aware that there have been extreme exceptions to the peaceful rule. But I'd like you to show me evidence of "angry mobs" since, oh, the mid-'80's.

Evidence? I have only what I have seen in person in sydney. And I'm definately talking post-80s. I used to work near an abortion clinic and saw it almost daily. This was 2001-2002.

Lumina wrote: I'd also appreciate your explaining what "sticky-beaks" are.

People who poke their noses into other people's personal and private affairs. Especially when their opinions on the matter are not appreciated.

Lumina wrote: I realize that there are a few who wave bloody-fetus pictures, but these aren't the overwhelming majority. And when was the last clinic bombing? And as horrendous and EVIL as they were, how many were there?

Don't minimise it. It wouldn't matter if there had only ever been one.

Lumina wrote: I'm out there in the "protest-trenches," and I am not seeing--nor have I in the past eight, nearly nine years, any evidence at all of what you say.
So where are the bloody-fetus picture-waving people? Name the places and please provide the links.

Like I told you. I can only speak from personal experience.


Lumina wrote: And please show me the emotional scars of those women who have been traumatized at abortion clinics by peaceful protest. Explain to me please how these women have been emotionally scarred by silent people standing outside the abortion clinic and praying?

I have no problem with the type of protest you are endorsing. I already said that.


Lumina wrote: Trust me, the emotional scarring is from the abortion itself...not from those giving silent physical witness to what the woman is about to do.
The purpose of my standing there is to persuade other women, before it's too late, that there are alternatives to abortion. How does my silent testimony "scar" them, much less "scar" them more than the abortion itself?

I said getting the abortion is a difficult decision as it is for most women. Anti-abortionists act as if their opinions are un-heard of. Women getting abortions know that there are ppl out there who do not approve of it and they know the reasons those ppl do not approve of it.
The fact is that if a woman does not share your belief that a fetus has a soul, or can feel, or whatever - she believes she is not in the wrong.
Anti-abortion protesters are to women going to clinics what PETA extremists are to people sitting down to their sunday roast. Only PETA protesters don't stand near the meat sections in supermarkets calling people murderers (or praying).

[Lumina]

I responded to your post because I thought you had made a grossly unfair and inaccurate statement about protest activities, but now I realize that you were talking about your experiences in Australia, not the United States, which is what I'm talking about.

I'm not minimizing the horror of a clinic bombing--of course, even one is too many. My point was that many years have elapsed since the last one. Eric Rudolph, who was responsible for that one, has also been charged with the Olympic bombing.

Re "I said getting the abortion is a difficult decision as it is for most women. Anti-abortionists act as if their opinions are un-heard of. Women getting abortions know that there are ppl out there who do not approve of it and they know the reasons those ppl do not approve of it. The fact is that if a woman does not share your belief that a fetus has a soul, or can feel, or whatever - she believes she is not in the wrong," you really don't need to explain this to me. You also don't need to explain to me the desperation of someone seeking an abortion or the fact that while many women believe what they're doing is wrong, they also don't see any other choice.

I do need to explain to you the difference between "anti-abortionists" and "pro-lifers." "In recent years, the term 'anti-abortion' has been used to identify individuals and groups which employ violence and murder to attain their political ends. They are differentiated from the vastly larger 'pro-life' movement which rejects violence against persons and property." http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

I have a huge problem with your statement that "Anti-abortion protesters are to women going to clinics what PETA extremists are to people sitting down to their sunday roast. Only PETA protesters don't stand near the meat sections in supermarkets calling people murderers (or praying)."

There's just so much wrong with this. Horrific analogy, OMG.

[Blinky]

Lumina wrote: I responded to your post because I thought you had made a grossly unfair and inaccurate statement about protest activities, but now I realize that you were talking about your experiences in Australia, not the United States, which is what I'm talking about.

I'm not minimizing the horror of a clinic bombing--of course, even one is too many. My point was that many years have elapsed since the last one. Eric Rudolph, who was responsible for that one, has also been charged with the Olympic bombing.

Re "I said getting the abortion is a difficult decision as it is for most women. Anti-abortionists act as if their opinions are un-heard of. Women getting abortions know that there are ppl out there who do not approve of it and they know the reasons those ppl do not approve of it. The fact is that if a woman does not share your belief that a fetus has a soul, or can feel, or whatever - she believes she is not in the wrong," you really don't need to explain this to me. You also don't need to explain to me the desperation of someone seeking an abortion or the fact that while many women believe what they're doing is wrong, they also don't see any other choice.


So if you know that women going to clinics are fully aware of your point of view, why do you stand outside clinics with placards praying?

Lumina wrote: I do need to explain to you the difference between "anti-abortionists" and "pro-lifers." "In recent years, the term 'anti-abortion' has been used to identify individuals and groups which employ violence and murder to attain their political ends. They are differentiated from the vastly larger 'pro-life' movement which rejects violence against persons and property." http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

To the pro-choicer they are one and the same. They both desire the same end, although via different means.
The same end that they both seek, is the mirror opposite in the philosophy of the pro-choice movement.

Lumina wrote: I have a huge problem with your statement that "Anti-abortion protesters are to women going to clinics what PETA extremists are to people sitting down to their sunday roast. Only PETA protesters don't stand near the meat sections in supermarkets calling people murderers (or praying)."

There's just so much wrong with this. Horrific analogy, OMG.

Funny thing is its not even my analogy. Its my best friend's. She came up with it after accompanying her sister to a clinic.
And if you think about it, its not far off. Some people within the animal rights movement consider killing animals murder. The fact that most people (within our own countries at least) think differently, doesn't matter to them. People will always have differeing points of view on any given matter. The difference is that PETA extremists don't pray outside slaughterhouses or call the meat workers murderers. They choose not to eat meat themselves and encourage their friends to do the same. And that's fine. But suppose I had a problem with something you chose to do (eating meat for example) and I followed you around the supermarket praying or calling you a murderer or holding up a placard with a dead animal on it. Would you object?

[Lumina]

I cannot explain to you the nature of prayer if you're not already conversant with it. Perhaps some other hardy soul will take the time.

And again, comparing a human life to an animal's, particularly one that is consumed at a dinner table, is grotesque. Again, regardless of
who came up with this twisted analogy, it's sick.

[JDHURF]

Lumina wrote: And again, comparing a human life to an animal's, particularly one that is consumed at a dinner table, is grotesque. Again, regardless of who came up with this twisted analogy, it's sick. I’m not here to take sides. I am all for peaceful protesting, but you have clearly misunderstood the analogy. The analogy is not comparing human life to animal life – although a strong case could be made for this – rather it is comparing the actions of extremist protestors, it seems that this should have been obvious. Furthermore your view of the analogy as being sick – while being based on your lack of having understood it properly – is subjective, it is your opinion and as such you should be able to realize how absolutely repulsive and grotesque it is to many people to claim that abortion is the equivalent of murder and that those who decide to undergo abortion are necessarily blood thirsty murderers. While the one analogy is between actions taken by extremists and is not, in the least bit, twisted or sick the other - even if your misunderstanding of the analogy were correct - is not as repulsive as comparing abortion to cold blooded murder, that is what is sick, that is what is twisted and that is the very basis – I would argue – of pathology.

[Lumina]

JDHURF wrote: Lumina wrote: And again, comparing a human life to an animal's, particularly one that is consumed at a dinner table, is grotesque. Again, regardless of who came up with this twisted analogy, it's sick. I’m not here to take sides. I am all for peaceful protesting, but you have clearly misunderstood the analogy. The analogy is not comparing human life to animal life – although a strong case could be made for this – rather it is comparing the actions of extremist protestors, it seems that this should have been obvious. Furthermore your view of the analogy as being sick – while being based on your lack of having understood it properly – is subjective, it is your opinion and as such you should be able to realize how absolutely repulsive and grotesque it is to many people to claim that abortion is the equivalent of murder and that those who decide to undergo abortion are necessarily blood thirsty murderers. While the one analogy is between actions taken by extremists and is not, in the least bit, twisted or sick the other - even if your misunderstanding of the analogy were correct - is not as repulsive as comparing abortion to cold blooded murder, that is what is sick, that is what is twisted and that is the very basis – I would argue – of pathology.

You are free, of course, to your own opinion. But analogy, if it's to work, is based on more commonality than difference. In this case, the difference between animals which are food for human consumption, and human life is, in fact, grotesque. There are no points of comparison that can override the grotesque contrast.

[JDHURF]

Lumina wrote: You are free, of course, to your own opinion. But analogy, if it's to work, is based on more commonality than difference. In this case, the difference between animals which are food for human consumption, and human life is, in fact, grotesque. There are no points of comparison that can override the grotesque contrast. However the point of comparison was not with humans and animals but, rather, with the extremists and their protestations; what do you not understand about that? No one is comparing humans to animals, only PETA extremists to anti-abortionist extremists.

[Blinky]

JDHURF wrote: Lumina wrote: You are free, of course, to your own opinion. But analogy, if it's to work, is based on more commonality than difference. In this case, the difference between animals which are food for human consumption, and human life is, in fact, grotesque. There are no points of comparison that can override the grotesque contrast. However the point of comparison was not with humans and animals but, rather, with the extremists and their protestations; what do you not understand about that? No one is comparing humans to animals, only PETA extremists to anti-abortionist extremists.

Exactly.

[Obilisk18]

JDHURF wrote: Lumina wrote: You are free, of course, to your own opinion. But analogy, if it's to work, is based on more commonality than difference. In this case, the difference between animals which are food for human consumption, and human life is, in fact, grotesque. There are no points of comparison that can override the grotesque contrast. However the point of comparison was not with humans and animals but, rather, with the extremists and their protestations; what do you not understand about that? No one is comparing humans to animals, only PETA extremists to anti-abortionist extremists.

But you're doing exactly that. Or at least the previous poster was. Because you seem to be defining an "extremist" protester as someone who protests in areas where the protested activity is occuring. This is just absurd. What about the thousands of people protesting the Iraq War outside military bases? Don't you think that upsets the soldiers? I get quite upset when I see them, but I hardly call them extremists. Where exactly are people supposed to protest to avoid being labeled an extremist by you? On their lawns? Well, a woman who had an abortion might just happen to walk by, so can't have that. The only thing to do then is protest in your closet, real quite like just in case a woman who has had an abortion breaks into your house. Sounds like real civic activism to me. Why don't you just admit that you think abortion is a special situation, entitled to special privileges and respect because, well, because you say so.

[JDHURF]

Obilisk18 wrote: But you're doing exactly that. Or at least the previous poster was.

No I am not and neither was the previous poster. The comparison is not between humans and animals but between two extremists, that is all and it should very well be obvious to anyone with elementary level reading comprehension.
Obilisk18 wrote: Because you seem to be defining an "extremist" protester as someone who protests in areas where the protested activity is occuring. This is just absurd.
I have made no such argument, that is what is absurd. Maybe you should read the thread before you begin waging false accusations and tearing down stawman arguments.
Obilisk18 wrote: What about the thousands of people protesting the Iraq War outside military bases? Don't you think that upsets the soldiers? I get quite upset when I see them, but I hardly call them extremists.
I don’t call them extremists either.
Obilisk18 wrote: Where exactly are people supposed to protest to avoid being labeled an extremist by you?
Where ever they wish so long as they are peaceful and civil. Protesters become extremists not based on where they protest but based on how they protest.
Obilisk18 wrote: On their lawns? Well, a woman who had an abortion might just happen to walk by, so can't have that. The only thing to do then is protest in your closet, real quite like just in case a woman who has had an abortion breaks into your house. Sounds like real civic activism to me.
You’re arguing with an argument I have never presented and never would, I suggest that you read my posts. I couldn’t care less where people protest so long as they are peaceful and civil in their protesting.
Obilisk18 wrote: Why don't you just admit that you think abortion is a special situation, entitled to special privileges and respect because, well, because you say so.

How about you go back through the thread and actually read my posts lest you continue embarrassing yourself through arguing with me regarding an argument I have never made and never would.

[Lumina]

JDHURF wrote: Lumina wrote: And again, comparing a human life to an animal's, particularly one that is consumed at a dinner table, is grotesque. Again, regardless of who came up with this twisted analogy, it's sick. I’m not here to take sides. I am all for peaceful protesting, but you have clearly misunderstood the analogy. The analogy is not comparing human life to animal life – although a strong case could be made for this – rather it is comparing the actions of extremist protestors, it seems that this should have been obvious. Furthermore your view of the analogy as being sick – while being based on your lack of having understood it properly – is subjective, it is your opinion and as such you should be able to realize how absolutely repulsive and grotesque it is to many people to claim that abortion is the equivalent of murder and that those who decide to undergo abortion are necessarily blood thirsty murderers. While the one analogy is between actions taken by extremists and is not, in the least bit, twisted or sick the other - even if your misunderstanding of the analogy were correct - is not as repulsive as comparing abortion to cold blooded murder, that is what is sick, that is what is twisted and that is the very basis – I would argue – of pathology.

The fact that your interpretation of the analogy is not "obvious" to me should tell you something. Effective communication requires that the writer/speaker ensure that his or her words cannot possibly be misunderstood. And I don't think I did misunderstand; as I've already observed, analogy is dependent on the points of comparison.

Further, now you're referring to an analogy between extremists. Clearly, and with illustration provided, those standing on a sidewalk with their heads bowed and silently praying are not extremists. Never mind my words--do the people in the photo look like they're participating in "extreme" demonstration? If you're trying to connect those who silently protest--who are obviously not clinic-bombing "extremists" with PETA extremists who bomb labs and toss paint on fur-wearers, the analogy remains false.

[Obilisk18]

JDHURF wrote: Obilisk18 wrote: But you're doing exactly that. Or at least the previous poster was.

No I am not and neither was the previous poster. The comparison is not between humans and animals but between two extremists, that is all and it should very well be obvious to anyone with elementary level reading comprehension.
Obilisk18 wrote: Because you seem to be defining an "extremist" protester as someone who protests in areas where the protested activity is occuring. This is just absurd.
I have made no such argument, that is what is absurd. Maybe you should read the thread before you begin waging false accusations and tearing down stawman arguments.
Obilisk18 wrote: What about the thousands of people protesting the Iraq War outside military bases? Don't you think that upsets the soldiers? I get quite upset when I see them, but I hardly call them extremists.
I don’t call them extremists either.
Obilisk18 wrote: Where exactly are people supposed to protest to avoid being labeled an extremist by you?
Where ever they wish so long as they are peaceful and civil. Protesters become extremists not based on where they protest but based on how they protest.
Obilisk18 wrote: On their lawns? Well, a woman who had an abortion might just happen to walk by, so can't have that. The only thing to do then is protest in your closet, real quite like just in case a woman who has had an abortion breaks into your house. Sounds like real civic activism to me.
You’re arguing with an argument I have never presented and never would, I suggest that you read my posts. I couldn’t care less where people protest so long as they are peaceful and civil in their protesting.
Obilisk18 wrote: Why don't you just admit that you think abortion is a special situation, entitled to special privileges and respect because, well, because you say so.

How about you go back through the thread and actually read my posts lest you continue embarrassing yourself through arguing with me regarding an argument I have never made and never would.

The previous poster, Blinky, specifically made an analogy between abortion protesters, and hypothetical PETA beef protesters. I believe he said something along the lines of "but at least PETA protesters don't protest outside slaughterhouses". This was a clear and direct referrence to abortion protesters protesting in front of women who have abortions (at abortion clinics). In fact, he'd made previous referrences to this exact situation. I shouldn't have lumped you in with his assertions, but I suggest you re-read his posts. He clearly indicated that in his view, pro-lifers protesting outside abortion clinics, and encouraging them not to get abortions, was extremism.

[Lumina]

And that's the problem. Never mind the odious comparison to slaughterhouses.

[Blinky]

Look, Obilisk18, theres no need to struggle to remember what I said and attempt to paraphrase it when you can scroll up something like 3 posts and read it. I never mentioned beef, I never used the words "at least", and the point of what I said was not the location of the protests but what happens at them. What I said was this:

I wrote: Anti-abortion protesters are to women going to clinics what PETA extremists are to people sitting down to their sunday roast. Only PETA protesters don't stand near the meat sections in supermarkets calling people murderers (or praying).

Now, Lumina suggested that there was a difference between "Pro-Life" and "Anti-Abortion" - a difference I partly agreed to (they have differing means) but I maintain that their end desire is the same. Irrespective of what means they employ, they both seek to ensure abortion does not take place.
But if Lumina and yourself wish to maintain a distinction, as you clearly do, then you should have no problem with the analogy as it clearly says "Anti-abortion protesters..."

[Lumina]

Actually, Blinky, as the OP, my point was about peacefully protesting abortion. The commonly accepted distinction--not mine, but commonly accepted--is between those who are violent and willing to commit equal acts of horror because of their beliefs (anti-abortionists) and those who are members of the much larger group who reject any violence at all, including verbal violence (pro-lifers).

It's still about comparing human babies to animals destined (or not) to end up on the dinner table.

[Mikate8]

Peaceful protests are awesome, alot cooler than this, take a look.... ---> "standing on the corner across the street of an abortion clinic, whats that, people are protesting, women are using vaccums inside places that shouldnt be, and then.... whoooooooooooo... whats that noise in slow motion... whoooooooo .... KABOOOOOOMMM, AGHHH, glass flying everywhere, people flyin, fetuses from inside are raining down on the people, aghhh its chaos."


Peaceful protests sound alot better than bombings, so i'll go with that, since theres a planning parenthood place or whatchamacallit near my house and I don't want fetuses raining down on my window.

Also, I need some advice, for halloween I wanted to be the back alley abortionist which was inspiration for the song "Bodies" by the Sex Pistols because Johnny Rotten was talking about how he was walking down the street and out of this alley a dude had a bag, a bloody bag, with.... a fetus, omg it was a fetus and then they made the song which to those who havent heard it, its neither for or against abortion, its neutral. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I could find a fake fetus, or maybe make one, so I can enjoy halloween one last time before i'm 18 and then it'll be creepy if I go out candy hunting.

[Obilisk18]

Mikate8 wrote: Peaceful protests are awesome, alot cooler than this, take a look.... ---> "standing on the corner across the street of an abortion clinic, whats that, people are protesting, women are using vaccums inside places that shouldnt be, and then.... whoooooooooooo... whats that noise in slow motion... whoooooooo .... KABOOOOOOMMM, AGHHH, glass flying everywhere, people flyin, fetuses from inside are raining down on the people, aghhh its chaos."


Peaceful protests sound alot better than bombings, so i'll go with that, since theres a planning parenthood place or whatchamacallit near my house and I don't want fetuses raining down on my window.

Also, I need some advice, for halloween I wanted to be the back alley abortionist which was inspiration for the song "Bodies" by the Sex Pistols because Johnny Rotten was talking about how he was walking down the street and out of this alley a dude had a bag, a bloody bag, with.... a fetus, omg it was a fetus and then they made the song which to those who havent heard it, its neither for or against abortion, its neutral. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I could find a fake fetus, or maybe make one, so I can enjoy halloween one last time before i'm 18 and then it'll be creepy if I go out candy hunting.

That seems just a little...provocative. And seeing as how pro-lifers tend to be the ones with all the guns...maybe a little dangerous too. I'd be pretty offended.

[Mikate8]

exactly obilisk, I mean I like both groups cause theyre both fun, its just what would the expression on your face be when you walk outside and theres fetuses and fetus and womb juice all over the place cause an abortion clinic got blown up

[Obilisk18]

Mikate8 wrote: exactly obilisk, I mean I like both groups cause theyre both fun, its just what would the expression on your face be when you walk outside and theres fetuses and fetus and womb juice all over the place cause an abortion clinic got blown up

Well...yeah. The expression on my face would be...outrage and disgust. And I'm not a violent person. I hate to think how a drunken bunch of card carrying NRA members would react.

[Mikate8]

they'd probly take the fetuses off the ground and the ones stuck on peoples clothes and faces and sell them for more guns because fetuses are a hot commodity, its not like you can get fetuses from anywhere, not like they grow from trees

Don't forget everyone, I need a fake fetus for halloween

Fetus monster, gimme gimme