Political Crossfire Forums

[Drey]

MJB wrote: Drey wrote: MJB wrote: Drey wrote: MJB wrote: Drey wrote: I asked the question once as to the purpose of 'Atonement'. The answer I got was an unintelligible babble about a relationship with God that conveyed absolutely no information I could use.

So I worked on the question myself. What I found is this. Please tell me if I am correct.

1. All Christians have to confess to comitting an act that merits their execution.

2. They are then asked to rejoice that Jesus, an innocent man, had to be put forth in his blood i.e. killed, like a lamb gone to slaughter in order for them to get their sorry behinds out of a jam.

I'm asking because I cannot for the life of me look into my past and see where I have ever done anything that would justify having to be executed. I may have screwed up but I have not done anything that a reasonable person would say required my life to settle accounts.

My question is this What was the crime (Crime against the government of God) you comitted that was so terrible that it carried a death sentence?

It's not about having done things to deserve or merit execution.

Jesus Christ suffered and died for us. He suffered for our sins, so that we would not have to suffer for them ourselves, if we would repent and accept and follow him. He died, that he might bring about the resurrection of the dead, so that even though we will all die, we will all be resurrected and live again, thus conquering death for us too.

As for sin itself, whether it be large or small, any sin makes us unclean. But by repenting, and accepting Christ's atonement in our behalf and following him, we can be cleansed from our sins, thereby enabling us to return to the presence of God, where no unclean thing can dwell.

I did get that part about Jesus being a sacrifice to pay for my sins. I am not saying I haven't made mistakes. What I am saying is I honestly have not done anything that would require me to pay for those mistakes with my life.

Like was said earlier Christians claim that God is love. And yet he is represented as requiring us on pain of death to confess to a capital offense and then kills someone who is completely innocent to let me, who he thinks is guilty off. I honestly have not comitted a capital offense. And how could I possibly live with myself if I agreed to let someone who is innocent take the blame for me especially when I didn't do it?

The whole thing seems absurd. A God who claims to be loving, yet is willing to kill anyone for any slight blip in their behavior pattern. Men forced on pain of death to confess to crimes they did not committ. When we see the police do this we are appalled. But the police do that and we are justly appalled.

My question was, however, what is your sin? What horrendous crime have you comitted against God's government that requires you to die?

As I said, "It's not about having done things to deserve or merit execution." That's not what it is, and you thinking that's what Christianity is saying, is where you're making your mistake in the first place.

Well what is one to think when he reads: "The wage of sin is death'. It sure sounds that if you sin then you will die. Are you saying that is not the case?

If, as you have said, I am being executed for something I did not do where is the justice in that? And what crime am I being asked to plead to having committed in order to get off of this charge? Does it not corrupt a person who is forced to confess to a crime he did not committ?

There has to be something that man is being charged with if he is expected to confess to something in order to be let off the hook.

And what about the innocent man that had to be killed? What kind of justice does that show us?

When the scriptures say that the wages of sin is death, they mean that sin is incompatible with attaining eternal life.

Eternal life, is living in the very presence of God, and enjoying the quality of life he has, with him, forever. But - because no unclean thing can dwell in his presence - any sin, large or small, terrible or minor, would be spiritual death to us, in that it would prevent us from being able to dwell with him.

That is, unless, there was a way that we could be cleansed from sin and become purified so that we could enter his presence. Well - God provided a way to make that cleansing possible. Because of what Jesus did in our behalf, we can be cleansed and purified, so that we can attain eternal life in God's presence, forever.

It has nothing to do with whether or not any of us have committed a sin so terrible that we would be deserving of a death sentence or execution (though there certainly are some individuals who have been so evil and wretched to deserve such).

I'm beginning to understand that Christians do not think very highly of human beings. I honestly do not get this purification thing. What on earth do you mean by being purified? Could you use some other metaphor that has some way of communicating more precisely what you are saying? For something to be believed it must be believable.

I remember reading that there is no place that we are absent from the presence of God. I believe Jonha discovered that. I also believe that Solomon spoke about it as well. Saying that no matter where we went, even to sheol, we were in his presence. But you have made it sound as if some humans, the impure ones, ( still undefined) are in some way shut off from his presence.

This whole concept of 'purity' and 'impurity' is something that has no place in my understanding. It seems to be highly metaphysical, and bordering on theroretical and completely unable to be comprehended. Just what is this state of purity? Have you attained it?. I do not ever recall Jesus saying anything about being pure. Meek, child like, forgiving, but I do not recall anything about urging us to have our humanity purged in order for us to enter the kingdom of God.

[toddytodd]

CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Drey wrote: I asked the question once as to the purpose of 'Atonement'. The answer I got was an unintelligible babble about a relationship with God that conveyed absolutely no information I could use.

So I worked on the question myself. What I found is this. Please tell me if I am correct.

1. All Christians have to confess to comitting an act that merits their execution.

2. They are then asked to rejoice that Jesus, an innocent man, had to be put forth in his blood i.e. killed, like a lamb gone to slaughter in order for them to get their sorry behinds out of a jam.

I'm asking because I cannot for the life of me look into my past and see where I have ever done anything that would justify having to be executed. I may have screwed up but I have not done anything that a reasonable person would say required my life to settle accounts.

My question is this What was the crime (Crime against the government of God) you comitted that was so terrible that it carried a death sentence?
One sin is all it takes. No unlean thing, NO unclean thing, even if it's only slightly unclean, can enter the kingdom of God.

What is considered clean and unclean?
Isn't (wasn't) pork considered unclean at one time by some?
Yes, it was.
Sin is considered unclean.
The 'sin is unclean'argument aside (as I understand sin and God don't mix), the whole 'clean' vs 'unclean' thing is beyond crazy in my opinion.
:-|

[Ssushi]

John wrote: Rebellion = Sin


Humans are “sinful” because they naturally rebel against what they are designed to do (which is quite peculiar if you think about it)

Like a watch refusing to tell time.

What were designed to do John? No one ever told me that bit.

[John]

Ssushi wrote: John wrote: Rebellion = Sin


Humans are “sinful” because they naturally rebel against what they are designed to do (which is quite peculiar if you think about it)

Like a watch refusing to tell time.

What were designed to do John? No one ever told me that bit.


We're designed to have a loving relationship with God. And without it.....we will never feel fulfilled. It's what we're all seeking...it why the new car, sex with the person, career, ect, ect, never seems to be quite enough. Because we're all really seeking this relationship that we were designed for. That's why heaven will be so satisfying. Because we will be fulfilling what we are designed to do.

[Drey]

John wrote: Ssushi wrote: John wrote: Rebellion = Sin


Humans are “sinful” because they naturally rebel against what they are designed to do (which is quite peculiar if you think about it)

Like a watch refusing to tell time.

What were designed to do John? No one ever told me that bit.


We're designed to have a loving relationship with God. And without it.....we will never feel fulfilled. It's what we're all seeking...it why the new car, sex with the person, career, ect, ect, never seems to be quite enough. Because we're all really seeking this relationship that we were designed for. That's why heaven will be so satisfying. Because we will be fulfilling what we are designed to do.

There are a couple way of looking at a relationship with God. One works for me and one doesn't.

The one that doesn't work is that if I had to confess to being worthy of execution and having absolutely no idea why, but that I was coercered into doing it. The one that doesn't work makes God and man enemies and some kind of peace has to be made between them. The only time God and I were enemies was when I had to confess that I was evil and needed to have someone die in my place. Do you have any idea what it means to confess to a crime you did not do and then let someone else get executed for it? That is something designed to make you even more guilty if you have even an average human conscience.

The one that does work for me is best described by Henry Thoreau who while on his death bead was asked if he had made his peace with God. His reply was that he was unaware of any quarrel between him and God. that is the way I prefer to look at it.

[Lumina]

Ssushi wrote: John wrote: Rebellion = Sin


Humans are “sinful” because they naturally rebel against what they are designed to do (which is quite peculiar if you think about it)

Like a watch refusing to tell time.

What were designed to do John? No one ever told me that bit.

To love God and each other.

[John]

Drey wrote: John wrote: Ssushi wrote: John wrote: Rebellion = Sin


Humans are “sinful” because they naturally rebel against what they are designed to do (which is quite peculiar if you think about it)

Like a watch refusing to tell time.

What were designed to do John? No one ever told me that bit.


We're designed to have a loving relationship with God. And without it.....we will never feel fulfilled. It's what we're all seeking...it why the new car, sex with the person, career, ect, ect, never seems to be quite enough. Because we're all really seeking this relationship that we were designed for. That's why heaven will be so satisfying. Because we will be fulfilling what we are designed to do.

There are a couple way of looking at a relationship with God. One works for me and one doesn't.

The one that doesn't work is that if I had to confess to being worthy of execution and having absolutely no idea why, but that I was coercered into doing it. The one that doesn't work makes God and man enemies and some kind of peace has to be made between them. The only time God and I were enemies was when I had to confess that I was evil and needed to have someone die in my place. Do you have any idea what it means to confess to a crime you did not do and then let someone else get executed for it? That is something designed to make you even more guilty if you have even an average human conscience.

The one that does work for me is best described by Henry Thoreau who while on his death bead was asked if he had made his peace with God. His reply was that he was unaware of any quarrel between him and God. that is the way I prefer to look at it.


You must be one remarkable fellow.


But I'm not...I'm a sinner and I recognize that I will be found wanting if I have to stand before Holy God on my own accord. I need a redeemer, and I thank God that HE was provided for my needs.

[LostSoul3412]

Drey wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: My sin is same as all other humans...

Original Sin.

Can you explain that to someone who actually feels good about being a human.

I never said that you shouldn't be proud of your humanity; quite the contrary, actually. However, with that humanity, comes sin. We are the spawn of sinners, and we too are imperfect. Man is nothing but a beast. We are greedy, selfish, and we all give into temptation. That is our sin. Humanity is a proud thing to achieve, but with it comes sin. It's merely part of the package.

[LostSoul3412]

Lumina wrote: To love God and each other.

:tu:

I agree whole-heartedly. I believe that love is the work of God, and if we are to follow Him we must love not only Him, but all of His creation. That included ourselves, our peers, and even our enemies.

[Drey]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Drey wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: My sin is same as all other humans...

Original Sin.

Can you explain that to someone who actually feels good about being a human.

I never said that you shouldn't be proud of your humanity; quite the contrary, actually. However, with that humanity, comes sin. We are the spawn of sinners, and we too are imperfect. Man is nothing but a beast. We are greedy, selfish, and we all give into temptation. That is our sin. Humanity is a proud thing to achieve, but with it comes sin. It's merely part of the package.

In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections. And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.



What do you mean man is nothing but a beast? If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'. Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

[MJB]

Drey wrote: In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections.

Perfection isn't a hang-up. It's a commandment.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the only way it will ever be possible, is through the atonement of Christ.

Drey wrote: And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.

No one is rejoicing in murder.

And just a little clarification here, no one took his life from him:

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And we don't rejoice in his suffering or in his crucifixion - we sorrow over both. But we rejoice, out of gratitude, that he was so selfless that he willingly suffered for our sins, and gave his life, to save us. Something we could never do for ourselves.

Drey wrote: What do you mean man is nothing but a beast? If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'. Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

It's better to be true to God first.

Self interest is only of lasting value if it isn't selfish.

[LostSoul3412]

Drey wrote: In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections. And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.

The celebration isn't what Jesus Christ endured, it is celebrating why He endured it. To go through so much pain and suffering for our sins; for God to sacrifice His own son to save humanity, is the greatest symbol of love and generosity that humanity has ever experienced. God, sacrificing Himself for our salvation. It was never an execution, it was a sacrifice. And even then, Jesus Christ called to His Father to forgive those whom were punishing Him.

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

Drey wrote: What do you mean man is nothing but a beast?

Instinctual, selfish, greedy. There is no difference between a human and any other of God's creation.

Drey wrote: If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'.

I never said that humanity was nothing; I just said that humanity was nothing special.

Drey wrote: Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

I can understand that line of thinking, and I wouldn't argue with it on a general level.

[Drey]

MJB wrote: Drey wrote: In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections.

Perfection isn't a hang-up. It's a commandment.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the only way it will ever be possible, is through the atonement of Christ.

Drey wrote: And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.

No one is rejoicing in murder.

And just a little clarification here, no one took his life from him:

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And we don't rejoice in his suffering or in his crucifixion - we sorrow over both. But we rejoice, out of gratitude, that he was so selfless that he willingly suffered for our sins, and gave his life, to save us. Something we could never do for ourselves.

Drey wrote: What do you mean man is nothing but a beast? If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'. Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

It's better to be true to God first.

Self interest is only of lasting value if it isn't selfish.

Am I to understand that perfection is a state of sinlessness? Of blamelessness?

[MJB]

Drey wrote: MJB wrote: Drey wrote: In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections.

Perfection isn't a hang-up. It's a commandment.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the only way it will ever be possible, is through the atonement of Christ.

Drey wrote: And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.

No one is rejoicing in murder.

And just a little clarification here, no one took his life from him:

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And we don't rejoice in his suffering or in his crucifixion - we sorrow over both. But we rejoice, out of gratitude, that he was so selfless that he willingly suffered for our sins, and gave his life, to save us. Something we could never do for ourselves.

Drey wrote: What do you mean man is nothing but a beast? If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'. Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

It's better to be true to God first.

Self interest is only of lasting value if it isn't selfish.

Am I to understand that perfection is a state of sinlessness? Of blamelessness?

Yes, but even more than that. We are to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect, and he is perfect in all ways.

Keep in mind though - reaching toward perfection is a pursuit that will continue and extend far beyond this life.

[Drey]

MJB wrote: Drey wrote: MJB wrote: Drey wrote: In this thread there seems to be quite a hang up with the idea of perfection. And perfection is seen as desireable and something most people do not claim to be but aspire to as something that God requires of them. An unattainable goal unless some poor innocent man is killed and in some gory transaction his life is in some magical mystical way used to erase your personal crimes and imperfections.

Perfection isn't a hang-up. It's a commandment.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the only way it will ever be possible, is through the atonement of Christ.

Drey wrote: And you are suppossed to rejoice in this mans murder. I'm sorry, I cannot participate in this mans execution by affirming it is good. I find that to be extremely immoral.

No one is rejoicing in murder.

And just a little clarification here, no one took his life from him:

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And we don't rejoice in his suffering or in his crucifixion - we sorrow over both. But we rejoice, out of gratitude, that he was so selfless that he willingly suffered for our sins, and gave his life, to save us. Something we could never do for ourselves.

Drey wrote: What do you mean man is nothing but a beast? If he is that is what he is. It is not 'nothing'. Self interest is what makes us keep on being alive. If we gave up self interest then we would cease to exist. Before we can be true to others we have to first be true to ourselves.

It's better to be true to God first.

Self interest is only of lasting value if it isn't selfish.

Am I to understand that perfection is a state of sinlessness? Of blamelessness?

Yes, but even more than that. We are to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect, and he is perfect in all ways.

Keep in mind though - reaching toward perfection is a pursuit that will continue and extend far beyond this life.

Can a person who believes he must be as perfect as a sinless God ever feel good about themselves?

[Lumina]

Yes! I'm not perfect...just forgiven.

[Drey]

Lumina wrote: Yes! I'm not perfect...just forgiven.

Well if perfection is required how the heck does forgiveness fit in? If you are forgiven and not perfect and perfection is required then what?

[Lumina]

Drey wrote: Lumina wrote: Yes! I'm not perfect...just forgiven.

Well if perfection is required how the heck does forgiveness fit in? If you are forgiven and not perfect and perfection is required then what?

It's in the daily struggle.

[Drey]

Lumina wrote: Drey wrote: Lumina wrote: Yes! I'm not perfect...just forgiven.

Well if perfection is required how the heck does forgiveness fit in? If you are forgiven and not perfect and perfection is required then what?

It's in the daily struggle.

Interesting. What are you struggling for? To get to the place where you do not need forgiveness? for some other reason. This idea of struggling has got my attention.

[Lumina]

The struggle for perfection. I will always be in need of forgiveness and of God's grace. I hope to please my Father by trying.