Political Crossfire Forums

[Tony Montana]

I, as a non-muslim infidel have come on to this web forum to have an intelligent debate about Islam and religion in general. I would like a few questions to be answered and thought you forum members may have the answers. Although this posting relates to Islam, the questions are JUST as relevant should you be a Christian, Jew or Hindu.

According to history, Islam was "invented" by a man named Mohammed.
As far as I am aware he was a normal man just like everyone else. He was not educated to a high level but was just a regular "bloke".
One day he supposedly had a vision/dream. In this dream he had direct contact with God (Allah) and it was this contact that inspired him to develop the writings in the Koran.
Now I have a couple of concerns about this whole scam set-up.

a) Who created God/Allah? Does he have a father?
Did he create himself out of thin air?

b) Why did God choose this particular person to be his messenger?
What was so unique and special about Mohammed?

c) Bearing in mind that man has been walking on the face of this planet in homo-sapien form for well over 100,000 years, why did he contact Mohammed only 800 years ago? Maybe man was not clever enough all those years ago? Do you think the pyramids built themselves?

d) Why has Allah not been in touch with anybody else since his original contact all those years ago? Is he running short on minutes for his mobile phone? Why doesn't he come on the BBC, CNN or Al Jazeera news channels?
Surely if he wanted to communicate his teaching in their correct form this would be an ideal platform to launch himself. What better way to convert all the infidels than to demonstrate your powers on live TV.

e) IF Allah really does have power over everyone and everything, why has he allowed the current state of world affairs to develop?
Why has he let the western powers take over up to the point where they control all the mineral resources, economic wealth not to mention nuclear firepower in the world?
Where was he in Gulf War I and Gulf War II?
Where was he in Palestine against Israel?
Where was he in Lebanon?
Where was he in Afghanistan during the 80's when the USSR invaded and more recently the USA?
When Muslims needed him most, where was he?

f) Many Muslims "claim" that the Koran has predicted future scientific inventions many, many years before they were developed in the west. One Muslim preacher came up to me once when I was at university and claimed that nuclear technology was originally stated and "invented" in the Koran. Why is it then that no Muslim nation other than Pakistan has these weapons? The underlying theory behind this technology was originally developed by Einstein, Heisenberg and Oppenheimer amongst others. All Americans of German/Jewish descent! Why didn’t Islam have the H-bomb in the middle ages?
Pakistan only has these weapons because the Chinese helped them. The Chinese wanted a military counter-balance against India which has had the H-bomb since 1971. India and China were at war in the early 1960's and China was just s**t-stirring. Pakistan's missile technology is almost all imported from North-Korea. The proof of Pakistan's military weakness is the recent earthquake in Kashmir. Pakistan could not cobble together 100 helicopters to launch the relief effort. They had to rely on the UK and US.
They should hang their heads in shame.

g) Muslims have been the victims in several recent natural disasters. 80,000 Muslims were killed in the Kashmir earthquake. Over 200,000 Muslims were killed in the tsunami last year. This summer, 1500 Muslims were killed when their ship sank.
Where was Allah when these people needed him most?
Is he in Mecca you may ask?
Apparently not because only last month, 350+ people were crushed to death in a stampede whilst performing the hajj. That is in addition to the thousands that have been killed there over the years.
If Allah can't protect his children in Mecca of all places, where will he protect them?

h) why do sunni muslims persecute and kill shia muslims and vice-versa?

i) Muslim suicide bombers foolishly believe that they will go to paradise and be “taken care of” by 70+ virgins. Why is it then that fanatics like Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri or Bin Laden don’t volunteer? They are quick to send young men to their deaths but they don’t put themselves forward. Surely if the show up there really is that good, these guys would want front row seats. I know I would!

j) What reward do female suicide bombers get? Do they get 70+ virgin guys?
Or do they have to “service” the male bombers already up there?

k) Why is it 70 virgins? Who decided on that number? Why not make it a nice round 100?
Why not make it 1000!!!!!!!!!!!


Now I could go on and on picking holes in the whole sorry story but I think you get the idea. There is no way that this story would stand up in any scientific court of law. What started out as a dream/rumour has morphed over the years into a religion that has over 1 billion zombie followers. You really have to hand it to Mohammed. Even he must be laughing his socks off in heaven proud of his handiwork.
I have dreams/visions all the time. They usually involve fast cars, money and women but I don't get 1 billion people parked outside my doorstep 5 times a day. Every day.

I don't want you Muslims thinking that I am only picking on your religion. The Christians and Jews are just as bad. They believe that God created the world in just 6 days and had Sunday off. They also believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Jesus being the same man who supposedly fed 5000 people with 2 loaves of bread and 1 fish. Bloody hell, it must have been one big fish!
They believe that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Latest scientific data suggests that the true age is over 4.6 billion years old!
The first word that comes to my mind when you say Catholic priest is Paedophile or nonce! There is not a day that goes by when there is not some story coming out about some gay bishop putting his rod where the sun don’t shine.

Hindu's are equally as crazy. You may recall the events of the early 1990's when the statues of Ganesh suddenly started to drink milk. Whole supermarket shelves were cleared of milk as these crazed Hindu's fed the idols with gallons of the white stuff. They might have wanted to try Johnny Walker Black label as well. They would soon discover that the idol will drink any liquid you put in its face.

All the major religions contradict and disagree with each other on many points.
Even if one of them is the true religion, logic would dictate that the others are wrong.
They can’t all be right.

All you people listen and listen well. Religion is nothing more than a sham.
It is the ultimate confidence trick. Period.
It is a form of power and control where physically weak men can have power and control over strong men.
The whole concept of heaven and hell is just a way of keeping people on the straight and narrow. Priests, Mullahs and Rabbis can control you even when you are alone.

EVERYTHING you have now you owe to SCIENCE. Without SCIENCE, you are nothing more than apes in the jungle. Remember that when you are reading this letter on your Pentium-computer in your air-conditioned office and driving home in your heated car to your warm home to flick on the light to answer the mobile phone and watch the plasma TV.
SCIENCE has given you ALL these things and more, NOT Allah!
You people need to wake up and smell the coffee.................


Tony Montana
Religion: Fundamentalist Atheist Scientist.

[sunwook]

I am a deist. Looking at your argument, you say, atheists say that they believe god does not exist, but cannot prove it. Well, the same goes for Christians and any other religious people. They can say, I believe God exists, but I cannot prove it. Because God represents the things we do not (not cannot) understand (yet), it will be impossible to prove God's existence.

[Selfish_Meme]

Tony Montana wrote: I, as a non-muslim infidel have come on to this web forum to have an intelligent debate about Islam and religion in general. I would like a few questions to be answered and thought you forum members may have the answers. Although this posting relates to Islam, the questions are JUST as relevant should you be a Christian, Jew or Hindu.

According to history, Islam was "invented" by a man named Mohammed.
As far as I am aware he was a normal man just like everyone else. He was not educated to a high level but was just a regular "bloke".
One day he supposedly had a vision/dream. In this dream he had direct contact with God (Allah) and it was this contact that inspired him to develop the writings in the Koran.
Now I have a couple of concerns about this whole scam set-up.

a) Who created God/Allah? Does he have a father?
Did he create himself out of thin air?

b) Why did God choose this particular person to be his messenger?
What was so unique and special about Mohammed?

c) Bearing in mind that man has been walking on the face of this planet in homo-sapien form for well over 100,000 years, why did he contact Mohammed only 800 years ago? Maybe man was not clever enough all those years ago? Do you think the pyramids built themselves?

d) Why has Allah not been in touch with anybody else since his original contact all those years ago? Is he running short on minutes for his mobile phone? Why doesn't he come on the BBC, CNN or Al Jazeera news channels?
Surely if he wanted to communicate his teaching in their correct form this would be an ideal platform to launch himself. What better way to convert all the infidels than to demonstrate your powers on live TV.

e) IF Allah really does have power over everyone and everything, why has he allowed the current state of world affairs to develop?
Why has he let the western powers take over up to the point where they control all the mineral resources, economic wealth not to mention nuclear firepower in the world?
Where was he in Gulf War I and Gulf War II?
Where was he in Palestine against Israel?
Where was he in Lebanon?
Where was he in Afghanistan during the 80's when the USSR invaded and more recently the USA?
When Muslims needed him most, where was he?

f) Many Muslims "claim" that the Koran has predicted future scientific inventions many, many years before they were developed in the west. One Muslim preacher came up to me once when I was at university and claimed that nuclear technology was originally stated and "invented" in the Koran. Why is it then that no Muslim nation other than Pakistan has these weapons? The underlying theory behind this technology was originally developed by Einstein, Heisenberg and Oppenheimer amongst others. All Americans of German/Jewish descent! Why didn’t Islam have the H-bomb in the middle ages?
Pakistan only has these weapons because the Chinese helped them. The Chinese wanted a military counter-balance against India which has had the H-bomb since 1971. India and China were at war in the early 1960's and China was just s**t-stirring. Pakistan's missile technology is almost all imported from North-Korea. The proof of Pakistan's military weakness is the recent earthquake in Kashmir. Pakistan could not cobble together 100 helicopters to launch the relief effort. They had to rely on the UK and US.
They should hang their heads in shame.

g) Muslims have been the victims in several recent natural disasters. 80,000 Muslims were killed in the Kashmir earthquake. Over 200,000 Muslims were killed in the tsunami last year. This summer, 1500 Muslims were killed when their ship sank.
Where was Allah when these people needed him most?
Is he in Mecca you may ask?
Apparently not because only last month, 350+ people were crushed to death in a stampede whilst performing the hajj. That is in addition to the thousands that have been killed there over the years.
If Allah can't protect his children in Mecca of all places, where will he protect them?

h) why do sunni muslims persecute and kill shia muslims and vice-versa?

i) Muslim suicide bombers foolishly believe that they will go to paradise and be “taken care of” by 70+ virgins. Why is it then that fanatics like Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri or Bin Laden don’t volunteer? They are quick to send young men to their deaths but they don’t put themselves forward. Surely if the show up there really is that good, these guys would want front row seats. I know I would!

j) What reward do female suicide bombers get? Do they get 70+ virgin guys?
Or do they have to “service” the male bombers already up there?

k) Why is it 70 virgins? Who decided on that number? Why not make it a nice round 100?
Why not make it 1000!!!!!!!!!!!


Now I could go on and on picking holes in the whole sorry story but I think you get the idea. There is no way that this story would stand up in any scientific court of law. What started out as a dream/rumour has morphed over the years into a religion that has over 1 billion zombie followers. You really have to hand it to Mohammed. Even he must be laughing his socks off in heaven proud of his handiwork.
I have dreams/visions all the time. They usually involve fast cars, money and women but I don't get 1 billion people parked outside my doorstep 5 times a day. Every day.

I don't want you Muslims thinking that I am only picking on your religion. The Christians and Jews are just as bad. They believe that God created the world in just 6 days and had Sunday off. They also believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Jesus being the same man who supposedly fed 5000 people with 2 loaves of bread and 1 fish. Bloody hell, it must have been one big fish!
They believe that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Latest scientific data suggests that the true age is over 4.6 billion years old!
The first word that comes to my mind when you say Catholic priest is Paedophile or nonce! There is not a day that goes by when there is not some story coming out about some gay bishop putting his rod where the sun don’t shine.

Hindu's are equally as crazy. You may recall the events of the early 1990's when the statues of Ganesh suddenly started to drink milk. Whole supermarket shelves were cleared of milk as these crazed Hindu's fed the idols with gallons of the white stuff. They might have wanted to try Johnny Walker Black label as well. They would soon discover that the idol will drink any liquid you put in its face.

All the major religions contradict and disagree with each other on many points.
Even if one of them is the true religion, logic would dictate that the others are wrong.
They can’t all be right.

All you people listen and listen well. Religion is nothing more than a sham.
It is the ultimate confidence trick. Period.
It is a form of power and control where physically weak men can have power and control over strong men.
The whole concept of heaven and hell is just a way of keeping people on the straight and narrow. Priests, Mullahs and Rabbis can control you even when you are alone.

EVERYTHING you have now you owe to SCIENCE. Without SCIENCE, you are nothing more than apes in the jungle. Remember that when you are reading this letter on your Pentium-computer in your air-conditioned office and driving home in your heated car to your warm home to flick on the light to answer the mobile phone and watch the plasma TV.
SCIENCE has given you ALL these things and more, NOT Allah!
You people need to wake up and smell the coffee.................


Tony Montana
Religion: Fundamentalist Atheist Scientist.
Not sure what your post has to do with this thread.

[Cyro]

sunwook wrote: I am a deist. Looking at your argument, you say, atheists say that they believe god does not exist, but cannot prove it. Well, the same goes for Christians and any other religious people. They can say, I believe God exists, but I cannot prove it. Because God represents the things we do not (not cannot) understand (yet), it will be impossible to prove God's existence.

Whilst I understand where you're coming from, holding the same opinions myself, you're opinions sound vaguely agnostic as well.

Thus I consider myself and Agnostic Deist. May the insanity commence.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Topic split from original.

-TGND

[Dr. Wojtyla]

Cyro wrote: sunwook wrote: I am a deist. Looking at your argument, you say, atheists say that they believe god does not exist, but cannot prove it. Well, the same goes for Christians and any other religious people. They can say, I believe God exists, but I cannot prove it. Because God represents the things we do not (not cannot) understand (yet), it will be impossible to prove God's existence.

Whilst I understand where you're coming from, holding the same opinions myself, you're opinions sound vaguely agnostic as well.

Thus I consider myself and Agnostic Deist. May the insanity commence.

Why? What about the universe suggests that God was any more involved in the beginning than he is now?

[dtwizzy2k5]

Great, just what we needed was another new forum member pushing the same atheist arguments weve debated a million times. Wheres capnqueasy and John when you need em? :lol:

Lets see what i can do at 1:30 AM...

Quote: Who created God/Allah? Does he have a father?
Did he create himself out of thin air?


God has always been. This may be a difficult concept to grasp, but something, be it God or primordial soup for you scientists, must have been the first thing to exist.

Quote: Why has Allah not been in touch with anybody else since his original contact all those years ago? Is he running short on minutes for his mobile phone? Why doesn't he come on the BBC, CNN or Al Jazeera news channels?
Surely if he wanted to communicate his teaching in their correct form this would be an ideal platform to launch himself. What better way to convert all the infidels than to demonstrate your powers on live TV.


If God came and showed himself to the world, then every single person without a doubt would believe, actually they would know, that God exists. Imagine what would happen then. Everybody would be on their best behavior and live nice little perfect lives so that they can go to heaven. Pretty boring, huh? Sorta defeats the purpose of life...

Quote: IF Allah really does have power over everyone and everything, why has he allowed the current state of world affairs to develop?
Why has he let the western powers take over up to the point where they control all the mineral resources, economic wealth not to mention nuclear firepower in the world?
Where was he in Gulf War I and Gulf War II?
Where was he in Palestine against Israel?
Where was he in Lebanon?
Where was he in Afghanistan during the 80's when the USSR invaded and more recently the USA?
When Muslims needed him most, where was he?


The question of evil is as old as evil itself.
Answer 1: Free will.
Answer 2: If there were no suffering, how may we know happiness?

Quote: The Christians and Jews are just as bad. They believe that God created the world in just 6 days and had Sunday off. They also believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Jesus being the same man who supposedly fed 5000 people with 2 loaves of bread and 1 fish. Bloody hell, it must have been one big fish!
They believe that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Latest scientific data suggests that the true age is over 4.6 billion years old!


Firstly, only some Christians who interpret the Bible literally actually believe that the earth is 6000 yrs old. Secondly, your problem is that you are looking for scientific explanations for things that are clearly supernatural.

In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:

[spearsy23]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.

[Demothenes]

Where to begin, where to begin . . .


I'm not even going to respond to the first post. You know why, it's already been discussed to death, and I think that dtwizzy2k5 covered the compiled arguments relatively accurately. Save the last bit, which was a bit harsh, though not disprovable.


Did it ever occur to you to ask why religion exists?

1) In essence, religion is the most rudimentary form of science, given that it is an attempt to explain the world around oneself, through a process of faith. Faith is necessary because early man, and many, many people today, lack any way to identify how, why, or even when things actually happen.

When does life begin?
How are you and I alive?
How do semi-random electronic bursts in a fuss of nerve cells become coherent thought?
Where did the universe come from?
Why does gravity work?

Questions like these have plagued mankind for thousands of years. Religion offers a sense of knowledge of the world around oneself, so that it does not seem so difficult and overwhelming.


2) Religion is often a collection of old wives tales and legends which could very well be true, if not incredibly fanticized and embellished. Case in point, nearly every religion in the world holds a tale of an unimaginable flood, often covering the whole world. Christianity refers to this as the tale of Noah's ark, while many other religions take the tale by another name. (I don't feel like intensive research at 2 AM to get them, but I've read several) So, as religion goes on, so does the story of Noah, along with others, which more often than not bear strong messages of pro-social behavior.

Religion, then, is a means of keeping alive heritage and tradition. This was incredibly important in a time period in which the only entertainment (or schooling, for that matter) happened in church.


3) Churches are social staples. This is evident in the fact that nearly every law in every country is derived from religion. When religion was still developing, it was a period of time (along with well, well after, for that matter) in which deviance was often a criminal, sometimes capital offense. Religion offers a method of teaching pro-social behavior, often using fear (ie hell). (I picked this word carefully, mind you. I don't like it, but many religions often used aggressive indoctrination and scare tactics) Keep in mind though, that it also highly values positive rewards (ie heaven).

Churches also create a sense of unity, the mass feeling that 'we are all god's children.' Societies which revolve around religion (including ours, to a point) seemingly have a more socially unified voice, and are in agreement most of the time (murder is wrong, no kiddie sex, etc) because of their beliefs.

4) Religion gives the ultimate cause. "For God!" (Allah, Jehovah, Krishna, The Fonz, whathaveyou) Early societies were driven, supported, and based around the military. Soldiers were, for a great long period of time, the single most important group in the world. Religion offered a unifying force to which the soldiers could rally, and fight for. (ie God wants us to have your land, or We must have the Holy Land) The Crusades, the conflicts of Israel, all are based on this principle.

I know, war is bad. However, at the time war was very, very good. The more expansive a nation or empire, the more prosperous it was. And the more prosperous it was, the longer the people lived, the more they could eat, the more children they could produce, etc. War is profitable for developing nations, which is one of the reasons for the constant problems in the Middle East, I'm sure.

5) Religion gives hope. This is a very simple concept, and the most commonly discussed. Religion, by and large, makes people not as afraid to die, and gives them a sense of peace about thier loved ones who have already passed on. People don't understand death. They never have, and I strongly suspect that they never will. With that ultimate uncertainty hanging over their heads, can you honestly expect them to hope for a God who loves them, and will take in the deserving with open arms? Can you expect not to try and be one of the deserving?

The daughter, weeping for her father, stops crying because she knows he's in God's presence, and she'll be there, too.

The soldier, scared before the battle, finds resolve in his faith, knowing that he will live on in heaven for his just sacrifice.



I don't know if any of the Holy Books are true. I doubt it. However, religion was necessary for a properly functioning society. Maybe it still is.


I do not mean to discredit science, I believe the world is billions of years old, that dinosaurs preceded man, and that we evolved from apes. But I don't expect everyone to give up their faith, tradition, social standards, cause, and hope in favor of a scientific theory. What would happen to society if science replaced religion? Is there any room for moral regulation in science? Or a good, predefined social structure? Science is important, but so is religion.

[David Kelly]

I got 1/2 way, but I don't like reading uneducated BS.
The thing that proved that this was uneducated was right at the start, God never said anything to the guy, it was Gabriell. :lol:

[TheTME]

spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

Is it possible that the disciples exaggerated on Jesus and that Paul copied a few things from Judaism and Pagen mythologies to make his religion seem more legitimate.

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

Is it possible that the disciples exaggerated on Jesus and that Paul copied a few things from Judaism and Pagen mythologies to make his religion seem more legitimate.

And what motive would Paul have for making a religion? After all, the early Christians were oft-persecuted and ridiculed for their religion. Back then most people were pagans and laughed at the idea of christianity.
Muhammad, on the other hand, had every motive for making up a religion. He gained an enormous amount of power and that is also how the Muslim empire expanded so much under his control with his false religion.

[TheTME]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

Is it possible that the disciples exaggerated on Jesus and that Paul copied a few things from Judaism and Pagen mythologies to make his religion seem more legitimate.

And what motive would Paul have for making a religion? After all, the early Christians were oft-persecuted and ridiculed for their religion. Back then most people were pagans and laughed at the idea of christianity.
Muhammad, on the other hand, had every motive for making up a religion. He gained an enormous amount of power and that is also how the Muslim empire expanded so much under his control with his false religion.

You think Muhammad and his first followers weren't persecuted and ridiculed? If people like Paul and Josephus were to start this peaceful messianic movement, they would have had no idea of the outcome. They could have had power, but of course they became a scapegoat to the authorities of the time. Dieing or being persecuted for a cause does not make the cause any more legitimate. There is no evidence that Christianity is more legitamate than Islam, both are probably "false" to a certain extent. Until we die and simply rot or pass onto an afterlife, we will have no idea what is real as far as religion goes.

[dtwizzy2k5]

TheTME wrote: Dieing or being persecuted for a cause does not make the cause any more legitimate.

Why not? If i made up a religion and people were about to kill me for it i would just admit that its fake and go back to worshipping the pagan gods like everbody else to avoid persecution. It doesnt make sense to die for a made up cause :?

[spearsy23]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: Dieing or being persecuted for a cause does not make the cause any more legitimate.

Why not? If i made up a religion and people were about to kill me for it i would just admit that its fake and go back to worshipping the pagan gods like everbody else to avoid persecution. It doesnt make sense to die for a made up cause :?

You think saying "whoa back off now i admit i made it all up just cause i liked the power trip" would save your ass?

You think the prophet Mohammed wasn't persecuted? Also three years before his death he was poisoned by a jewish woman (slave) who prepared teh food.

[spearsy23]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.
It is also possible that the bible is just a collection of myths from other religions retold to make them seem new, much the sam way a used car is put together to make it seem new at a dishonest dealer.

[cap'n queasy]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

Actually the parts of the Q'uran that describe Y'shua and His mother are copied from the so-called "Gnostic" gospels, and that is not exactly the same as being copied from the Christian Bible. For example, some of it's concepts about Issa and Maryam are directly taken from the fraudulent Gospel of Thomas. One of the so-called "Gnostic" gospels, which contain serious doctrinal errors.

So that's pretty weird and interesting. Just thought I would comment on that. You are doing a good job here. :-D

[spearsy23]

dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote: TheTME wrote: spearsy23 wrote: dtwizzy2k5 wrote:
In conclusion, i didnt bother responding to your Islam criticisms because Islam is a false religion and Mohammad is a false prophet. So i guess i do agree with you on one thing :wink:
i'm an atheist, however if there is a god i would hazard a guess that all religions are false religions. Now about his question 'why muhammad why then' well i would pose the same question about all christian prophets, and hell even jesus himself. just my two cents, well with inflation it's not worth much.


And this is sort of ironic, because besides Muhammad all the people that christians call prophets are also prophets of Islam. It is possible both religions could be "false".

Or it is possible that Muhammad just copied Christianity and added a few things here and there to make his religion seem more legitimate.

Is it possible that the disciples exaggerated on Jesus and that Paul copied a few things from Judaism and Pagen mythologies to make his religion seem more legitimate.

And what motive would Paul have for making a religion? After all, the early Christians were oft-persecuted and ridiculed for their religion. Back then most people were pagans and laughed at the idea of christianity.
Muhammad, on the other hand, had every motive for making up a religion. He gained an enormous amount of power and that is also how the Muslim empire expanded so much under his control with his false religion.
Obviously a muslim empire would expand after the muslim religion was created :? However the muslim empire expanded much more after teh prophet muhammad's death. So he really didn't get all that much power.