Political Crossfire Forums

[Lumina]

Selfish_Meme wrote: I would like to know what procedure was performed that left a 26 week old baby inside her?

The news reports referred only to an "abortion procedure." In the absence of further details, shouldn't we assume that the procedure was either a suction or a D & C abortion?

[Selfish_Meme]

In the absence of further details should we assume anything, after all I think there is a well know cliche something like 'innocent until proven guilty'. All we know is that she came for a procedure, but they didn't say what if anything was actually done, then the next day she reappeared and miscarried. Someone then foolishly tried to hide the evidence.

There are other scenario's that fit the facts, not saying they are true, but could be plausible, like she chickened out and then tried to abort herself at home later. When she felt unwell the next day, well where do you go, can't go to the hospital they ring the parents.

[Lumina]

Selfish_Meme wrote: In the absence of further details should we assume anything, after all I think there is a well know cliche something like 'innocent until proven guilty'. All we know is that she came for a procedure, but they didn't say what if anything was actually done, then the next day she reappeared and miscarried. Someone then foolishly tried to hide the evidence.

There are other scenario's that fit the facts, not saying they are true, but could be plausible, like she chickened out and then tried to abort herself at home later. When she felt unwell the next day, well where do you go, can't go to the hospital they ring the parents.

Yes, other scenarios fit the facts. But the one inescapable fact is that on a Thursday she went to the clinic for an abortion and that the next day, she returned because of complications. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Ch. 4 article said that the woman's baby was delivered alive rather than miscarried.

I agree with you that we shouldn't sit in judgment until more facts are known. But the fact that the clinic owner had "promoted" at least one cleaning lady to "nurse assistant" and that she was convicted of practicing nursing without a license is ominously suggestive, isn't it?

[Selfish_Meme]

Are you trying to suggest they are guilty and proclaim innocent until proven guilty at the same time...lol.

I would have thought at 24 weeks it was was a miscarriage, but I could be wrong.

[Lumina]

Here is the information from the second link:

"Witnesses tell police that a young woman, whose identity has not been released, arrived at the clinic last Thursday at roughly 22 weeks pregnant for an abortion procedure.

Police say the woman arrived the next day after the procedure complaining of severe pain. Workers at the clinic explained to her that the doctor was not available and she'd have to wait.

The woman was taken into a recovery room and according to witnessess, gave birth in the clinic.

''Employees cut the umbilical cord, put the baby in a bag and walked away with it," Hialeah Lt. Ralph Gracia said.

An anonymous caller, who police believe to be a clinic worker, alerted officials that the baby was born alive and possibly killed. When officials arrived, however, there was no body to be found.

CBS4's Dave Malkoff reported that when police were called to the scene a second time Friday night, they found the body of a dead baby in a biohazard bag."

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_209213550.html

The woman, according to this news report, did not miscarry: She gave birth. The anonymous caller phoned the police that the baby had been born alive. An autopsy on the baby, not the "fetus," will be performed on Saturday.

[Lumina]

More information on the Hialeah "abortion mill" (the term that kept popping up when I Googled):

"Police and prosecutors in Hialeah, Fla., are investigating an abortion clinic incident that has all the markings of murder. On the morning of July 20, an 18-year-old girl walked into the A Gyn Diagnostics Center to abort her baby at 23 weeks. She had received medication to dilate her cervix the night before. By that afternoon, however, the clinic abortionist, Frantz Bazile, had not shown up for work.

The girl delivered her baby, alive, moving, and trying to breathe. Clinic worker Belkis Gonzalez then allegedly cut the umbilical cord, stuffed the wriggling, gasping baby into a biohazard bag, and sealed the bag shut.

That is the story the baby's mother and at least one other witness told investigators, according to Hialeah Deputy Police Chief Mark Overton. The day the baby was born, police received a tip and searched the clinic, but found no body. Nine days later, acting on another tip, police searched A Gyn again. This time they found the infant, still in the biohazard bag, unrefrigerated and badly decomposed.

"This was a live birth. It wasn't an abortion or a botched abortion," Overton said. "We have a hospital within five minutes of that location and [Gonzalez] could have got that baby some help."

There will be charges, Overton said. But Florida authorities are proceeding carefully in deciding what type. They are reinterviewing people who have already given statements, Overton said, and "getting statements from people who lawyered up and refused to give them earlier." Police and prosecutors also are awaiting lab results, he added. "It's not like C.S.I. Miami, where you get the results by the end of the show."

In the view of some pro-life activists, the reported discussion among Florida authorities as to whether the 23-week baby was viable, and whether viability might bear on what kind of charges are filed, is ominous.

The case seems "pretty cut-and-dried to me, especially with the Born Alive Infant Protection Act," said pro-life activist Jill Stanek, the former Christ Hospital nurse in Illinois who blew the whistle over abortions in which living babies are left to die. "No matter the circumstances of its birth, that baby was a legal person entitled to medical care."

About two-thirds of babies born at 23 weeks survive, according to a 2003 study published in the journal Pediatrics. High survival rates aside, the federal Born Alive Infant Protection Act clarified that all babies, regardless of gestational age, are legal persons entitled to medical care; failure to provide it is a crime.

The Hialeah City Council on Aug. 10 stripped A Gyn of its local license. Clinic owner Siomara Senises voluntarily surrendered her operating license to the Florida Agency for Health Care Administration. In 2004, Senises turned in her license to operate another clinic in Miramar, Fla., after authorities discovered she had allowed unlicensed workers, including a medical student and a janitor, to perform abortions. The Hialeah incident marks the third time in two years that Florida abortionists have had to surrender their licenses for endangering women's safety, and the second time in just over one year that a born-alive baby has died in a Florida clinic.

The Hialeah incident is likely to revive stricter legislation to regulate abortion clinics. Florida Senate Majority Leader Daniel Webster (pictured), a Republican, said courts have repeatedly used a privacy provision in the state constitution "as a firewall between the legislature and abortion clinics," as a way to prevent health-care regulators from policing abortion clinics as they do other types of medical facilities.

The Hialeah incident has renewed Webster's resolve to try again to require abortionists at least to carry liability insurance. Such coverage is not currently required, giving abortionists in the state "an open opportunity to create a medical malpractice incident because there is no one to hold them liable," Webster said.

Meanwhile, Deputy Chief Overton said he believes the Hialeah clinic is liable for homocide. "My investigators are adamant about this case. I'm adamant about it and I think it's a tragedy . . . that they have this veil of late term abortion. . . . Once the baby was born alive, that changed the whole complexion. They can slaughter anyone they want according to the statutes before birth, but not after."

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2006/08/world_magazine.html

[Selfish_Meme]

I would say from a quick flip through the web that the baby had a 50/50 chance of survival and of not being severely retarded, though probably some retardation would occur from oxygen deprivation.

If it was born at an advanced medical center.

Judging by the cases and statistics I read I think this very well could be a good case to try for a reduction in the abortion limit to 20 weeks. The survival rate is going up and the retardation rate is coming down. It should be reassesed with advances in medical science.

[Lumina]

Selfish_Meme wrote: I would say from a quick flip through the web that the baby had a 50/50 chance of survival and of not being severely retarded, though probably some retardation would occur from oxygen deprivation.

If it was born at an advanced medical center.

Judging by the cases and statistics I read I think this very well could be a good case to try for a reduction in the abortion limit to 20 weeks. The survival rate is going up and the retardation rate is coming down. It should be reassesed with advances in medical science.

Perhaps I misunderstand...are you trying to justify what appears, legally, to be a homicide based on the baby's chances, once born, to survive? On whether he would've been born retarded?

One fact: The moment his mother had his "abortion procedure," his chances were nil. Also appearing to be a fact is that a crime was committed. Actually, multiple crimes.

This particular abortion-clinic operator needs to be shut down permanently. Egregious violations of the law such as the janitor who was promoted to "nursing assistant." This a good example of why closer supervision of such clinics is important.

[Selfish_Meme]

No, I am saying that it does indeed seem like a crime was committed, the baby had a decent chance for survival if it had of been cared for properly.

And on top of that I said think the evidence is good for a reduction from 25 weeks to 20 weeks for abortions for non-medical reasons.

[Izzibeth]

in this case, the baby was born alive, breathing (or attempting to) and able to function. if they took a gasping baby who was, in effect, "born early" and stuffed it in a bag, then they murdered it. if bringing it to a hospital would have saved it's life then they did, in fact murder a child. this is why they will judge the viability of the baby when they investigate this case. viability is quite important, in my opinion. if the baby was at a stage in which it could have been helped to survive outside of the mothers body (with our current technology) and they did not provide it with the help and stuffed it in a bag, then they did wrong. i'm sure the authorities will see that. this woman honestly waited way too long to head out to the abortion clinic. you should, generally, have enough time well before the 12-14 week mark to find out you are pregnant, contemplate, and then make a decision as to how you are going to go about with continuing or terminating your pregnancy. 24 weeks is far too late. in my humble opinion, of course.

[Lumina]

Izzibeth wrote: in this case, the baby was born alive, breathing (or attempting to) and able to function. if they took a gasping baby who was, in effect, "born early" and stuffed it in a bag, then they murdered it. if bringing it to a hospital would have saved it's life then they did, in fact murder a child. this is why they will judge the viability of the baby when they investigate this case. viability is quite important, in my opinion. if the baby was at a stage in which it could have been helped to survive outside of the mothers body (with our current technology) and they did not provide it with the help and stuffed it in a bag, then they did wrong. i'm sure the authorities will see that. this woman honestly waited way too long to head out to the abortion clinic. you should, generally, have enough time well before the 12-14 week mark to find out you are pregnant, contemplate, and then make a decision as to how you are going to go about with continuing or terminating your pregnancy. 24 weeks is far too late. in my humble opinion, of course.

I appreciate what you've said, Izzbeth, and I'm thinking a lot too. First, I don't think that this abortion mill, to use the loaded term, is typical at all of, say, Planned Parenthood Clinics. The fact that this tragedy has made the news is proof that this is a horrifically atypical tragedy. (At least, I hope this is what it means. A clinic employee was the honorable person who phoned the police. Whatever the prevailing "corporate culture" (which included "promoting" cleaning ladies to "nursing assistants"), at least one person did the right thing.

That matters. Regardless of our various views on abortion, I think we can all agree that this was a horrific, stupid, egregiously unnecessary tragedy.

I refuse to blame the 18-year old mother. She was in crisis and sought help, help that she believed, because it was licensed, was medically professional. She was wrong, and this is a problem that every state must now address.

She was given a "cervix-dialating" drug on that fateful Thursday. I'm guessing it was Pitocyn, the labor-inducing drug. She returned to the clinic in terrible pain and with obvious "complications" the next day, where she either gave birth to a live baby in the waiting room or an exam room, depending on what you read. Unknown clinic employees put the little boy in a biohazard bag and carried him off. Despite the clinic employee's call to the police, his body wasn't discovered for 9 days.

Coverup and evidence-tampering right now and for sure. Because of Florida law, a homicide charge too, perhaps. This abortion operator had been closed down before. This too is now an issue for all states to address. Right and left hands don't know what they're doing, and databases need to be built.

Back to the 18-year old, all she can do is try to pinpoint the date of conception. The clinic should have been able to determine somehow that the gestational week was 22 or 23 or whatever. But the fact is that scared pregnant teens who show up even at a Planned Parenthood clinic, which provides responsible medical services in addition to abortion services, may not have any idea when they conceived. I say something went way wrong during the "intake process" of this abortion clinic. Yet another problem for state legislation to address.

How did this horrific tragedy occur? How was this 18-year old processed? Why was an "abortion procedure" being performed at 22+ weeks anyway?

Why wasn't the abortionist on the schedule at work when he was supposed to have been? And beyond the official degreed-name on the records, was a janitor the real abortion operator here?

Yes, many questions that the states and our nation must address. More supervision/regulation/paperwork/database-entries are now required.
Required. We must INSIST upon this.

Maybe upon this ugly, shouldn't-have-happened case we can all find a little consensus.

[Lumina]

Interestingly, the pro-choicers on board have no comment on this atypical-but-horrendous tragedy. I've stated that this atypical case demonstrates the need for more state oversight. Can you pro-choicers and I find at least a little common ground in agreeing that this is the sort of horror we can all work--regardless of our "side of the aisle"--to prevent?

[Selfish_Meme]

selfish_meme wrote: While I think it was appalling
I would be quite willing to support better control of the abortion process and even some more restrictions, especially lowering the legal limit.