Political Crossfire Forums

[David2004]

As United Nations Resolution 1701 is passed the Israelis have tripled the number of Israeli military forces in Southern Lebanon. This is clearly in violation of the spirit of United Nation Resolution 1701. There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel. The Israeli will use so-called “legal loopholes” in the laws and resolutions saying they did not have to comply.

To compound things even more the United Nation passes Resolution 1701 saying they will send up to 15,000 United Nations Troops to keep the peace along side 15,000 Lebanese soldiers. Neither of who are battle trained nor ready to fight like the Israeli and Hezbollah forces. The Israeli the military in control of the region will make it near to impossible for the United Nations to carry out its mandate. Only NATO forces have the clout with Turkey playing a pivotal role in defusing this crisis. The Israeli and the United States are the partners in the war crimes in Lebanon. With the majority of the Israeli heavy military armament made in the United States and a lot of it paid for by American taxpayers.

The truce for how ever long it may last. Will be an open a widow for the outside world to see the horrific damage done to Southern Lebanon by the Israeli military forces. The American people will see how their tax dollars are being spent by Israel. From the very beginning of the War the Israeli made it clear they were not going after the Lebanese government or people. They were going after Hezbollah. The evidence left behind in the destruction of Lebanon will point to the contrary. It will point to collective punishment of the Lebanese people. With the majority of the damage that the Israelis have done in Lebanon was with American made weapons of death and destruction.

The Israeli see no wrong in their actions in Lebanon. For they have been doing it to the Palestinian people for many years. Israel is a nation built and trained to go to war in the name of national security. For every war Israel fights the blowback becomes greater because they are fighting for the unjust occupation of another people land. Yes, there are many problems on both sides. Without us addressing the problems on our side there chance for the other side to address their own problems from within. http://www.globalcrier.blogspot.com/

[thatisnotme]

I don't recall that the UN has said so far that Israel was in violations. Israel is obligated to leave South Lebanon when the international force will be in place -- which most experts agree it will take two to three weeks. In the meantime, Israel is patrolling the area, making sure Hezbollah does not launch its arsenal of rockets.

[The Comrade]

thatisnotme wrote: I don't recall that the UN has said so far that Israel was in violations. Israel is obligated to leave South Lebanon when the international force will be in place -- which most experts agree it will take two to three weeks. In the meantime, Israel is patrolling the area, making sure Hezbollah does not launch its arsenal of rockets.

exactly.

the IDF came out with a statement that said it would take at the minimum 10 days to withdraw. so far the UN hasn't said anything against it.


and i don't remember hearing how israel stepped up it's troop numbers three fold. as far as i know it's the same number of troops merely patrolling and waiting to withdraw.

although the IDF also said that if any agressor comes too close they'll be killed(which the UN hasn't said anything against so far).

[Nico]

This thread needs the poster's direct unreproduced opinion in the first post, for debate, otherwise it is cut and paste. thanks.

[Pebble]

Nico, I think that the blog is the poster's own. ;)

[whynot]

Quote: There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel

exactly israel and usa use the UN conseil as a utility to cover theirs criminal acts when they want , in order to give to this criminal act a law cover
in reality UN is now in holdup

[Nico]

Pebble wrote: Nico, I think that the blog is the poster's own. ;)
Yeah I know ;) , I just don't want to have a cut and paste from a blog, without it being qualified by a secondary comment/ proposition. Otherwise it can come off as spamming, even though I'm sure it isn't really the intention of the poster. I don't want to sound awkward, but it's a fine line when someone references their own material. Anyway I'll leave it as is for now.

[Moot]

For its part, Hezbollah has agreed to and will abide by the UN security council's resolution when Israel leaves Lebanon.

And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners. I do believe that using the IDF soldiers as bargaining chips was Hezbollah's main intention for their capture. Apparently, Israel intended to and has been holding thousands of Lebanese prisoners without trial or negotiations for their release for decades.

Isreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.

It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.

[The Comrade]

Moot wrote: For its part, Hezbollah has agreed to and will abide by the UN security council's resolution when Israel leaves Lebanon.

And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners. I do believe that using the IDF soldiers as bargaining chips was Hezbollah's main intention for their capture. Apparently, Israel intended to and has been holding thousands of Lebanese prisoners without trial or negotiations for their release for decades.

Isreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.

It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.


Quote: And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners.

yeah that's it. just some dudes hangin around getting kidnapped. then hezbollah merely wanted thousands of prisoners in exchange. and the policy of israel is "get too close and you're screwed". ever think all of those poor poor innocent prisoners got a little too close?

Quote: Isreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.

antagonistic towards palestine you mean?

here's what israel is responsible for.

two intifadas. operation peace in the gallilee. the current war.

oooohhhh that's such a big percentage of the problems going on in the middle east. they are also responsable for syria and iran arming hezbollah too? and the middle easts economic and political problems? of course they are.

and i think israel takes orders from america then then america takes orders from israel.

Quote: It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.


yes hezbollah has been known to listen to the israelis. and they definatly haven't done this thing in the past.

when all else fails blame it on the zionists.[/quote]

[Moot]

The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: For its part, Hezbollah has agreed to and will abide by the UN security council's resolution when Israel leaves Lebanon.

And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners. I do believe that using the IDF soldiers as bargaining chips was Hezbollah's main intention for their capture. Apparently, Israel intended to and has been holding thousands of Lebanese prisoners without trial or negotiations for their release for decades.

Isreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.

It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.


Quote: And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners.

yeah that's it. just some dudes hangin around getting kidnapped. then hezbollah merely wanted thousands of prisoners in exchange. and the policy of israel is "get too close and you're screwed". ever think all of those poor poor innocent prisoners got a little too close?

I don't suppose you've given a thought about the Lebanese prisoners that were kidnapped by Israelis out of Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2001 and have been sitting in Israeli prisons without a trial for years?

Quote: Quote: sreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.
antagonistic towards palestine you mean?

No, I meant what I said, 'Israel's policies towards it's neighbors is antgagnositic. I might add it's also racist.

Quote: here's what israel is responsible for.

two intifadas. operation peace in the gallilee. the current war.

oooohhhh that's such a big percentage of the problems going on in the middle east. they are also responsable for syria and iran arming hezbollah too? and the middle easts economic and political problems? of course they are.

and i think israel takes orders from america then then america takes orders from israel.

I seriously doubt Syria and Iran would be getting or even want nuclear weapons if Israel didn't already have them or if the US hadn't threatened them first and refused all diplomatic efforts. Without diplomatic relations and fair negotiations, what do you expect them to do? Wait around to be destroyed like the US did to Iraq or Israel did to Lebanon?

Anyway, what do you know about Israel's nuclear weapons? Anything? I don't suppose you've given a thought about the threat Israels nuclear weapons pose to its neighbors either, have you?

If the US had any political clout in the ME at all, it would have used it to reign in the Israelis aggressive response on Bush's only good acomplishment in the ME, Lebanon. The US's failure to diplomatically call for a ceasefire or reign in Israel shows who the real boss in the ME is and it ain't the US.

Quote: Quote: It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.

yes hezbollah has been known to listen to the israelis. and they definatly haven't done this thing in the past.

Can you give a credible example where Hezbollah has not done what it said it would do?

Quote: when all else fails blame it on the zionists. So you can't defend the Zionists actions towards it's Arabs neighbors, either?

What is proving to be a factual failure is Israel's double standard policies and aggression in lieu of diplomacy and fair negotiations with both Hezbollah and the Palestinians. How long the rest of the world is going to put up with it, remains to be seen.

[The Comrade]

Moot wrote: The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: For its part, Hezbollah has agreed to and will abide by the UN security council's resolution when Israel leaves Lebanon.

And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners. I do believe that using the IDF soldiers as bargaining chips was Hezbollah's main intention for their capture. Apparently, Israel intended to and has been holding thousands of Lebanese prisoners without trial or negotiations for their release for decades.

Isreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.

It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.


Quote: And to think this all started just because Hezbollah wanted to exchange some prisoners.

yeah that's it. just some dudes hangin around getting kidnapped. then hezbollah merely wanted thousands of prisoners in exchange. and the policy of israel is "get too close and you're screwed". ever think all of those poor poor innocent prisoners got a little too close?

I don't suppose you've given a thought about the Lebanese prisoners that were kidnapped by Israelis out of Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2001 and have been sitting in Israeli prisons without a trial for years?

Quote: Quote: sreals policies towards it's neighbors is antagonistic and seems to be the cruxt of 90% of the problems that arise in the ME. The US is Israel's lapdog so its policies in the ME are whatever Israel says it is.
antagonistic towards palestine you mean?

No, I meant what I said, 'Israel's policies towards it's neighbors is antgagnositic. I might add it's also racist.

Quote: here's what israel is responsible for.

two intifadas. operation peace in the gallilee. the current war.

oooohhhh that's such a big percentage of the problems going on in the middle east. they are also responsable for syria and iran arming hezbollah too? and the middle easts economic and political problems? of course they are.

and i think israel takes orders from america then then america takes orders from israel.

I seriously doubt Syria and Iran would be getting or even want nuclear weapons if Israel didn't already have them or if the US hadn't threatened them first and refused all diplomatic efforts. Without diplomatic relations and fair negotiations, what do you expect them to do? Wait around to be destroyed like the US did to Iraq or Israel did to Lebanon?

Anyway, what do you know about Israel's nuclear weapons? Anything? I don't suppose you've given a thought about the threat Israels nuclear weapons pose to its neighbors either, have you?

If the US had any political clout in the ME at all, it would have used it to reign in the Israelis aggressive response on Bush's only good acomplishment in the ME, Lebanon. The US's failure to diplomatically call for a ceasefire or reign in Israel shows who the real boss in the ME is and it ain't the US.

Quote: Quote: It's just a crying shame to know that this stupid, stupid conflict could have been negotiated diplomatically in the very beginning and without all the death and destruction. In fact it probably could have been avoided all together, if the Israelis truly were a democratic government instead of an extremist zionist state operating within a state.

yes hezbollah has been known to listen to the israelis. and they definatly haven't done this thing in the past.

Can you give a credible example where Hezbollah has not done what it said it would do?

Quote: when all else fails blame it on the zionists. So you can't defend the Zionists actions towards it's Arabs neighbors, either?

What is proving to be a factual failure is Israel's double standard policies and aggression in lieu of diplomacy and fair negotiations with both Hezbollah and the Palestinians. How long the rest of the world is going to put up with it, remains to be seen.


Quote: don't suppose you've given a thought about the Lebanese prisoners that were kidnapped by Israelis out of Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2001 and have been sitting in Israeli prisons without a trial for years?

kidnapped? i told gave you a reason why they probably got captured. if you get too close you're screwed. and why do peopel bring up the prisoners? you have no idea why they were captured. now, unless you have a CREDIBLE link to why these people were captured and proving they're innocent, your argument is based on nothing.



Quote: No, I meant what I said, 'Israel's policies towards it's neighbors is antgagnositic. I might add it's also racist.

israel hasn't had trouble with egypt in years. israel hasn't had trouble with jordan in years. israel hasn't had trouble with saudi arabia in years. the only people being antagonized are the palestinians. israel withdrew from lebanon in 2000. israel is hardly antagonizing them.

and how is it racist?

Quote: Can you give a credible example where Hezbollah has not done what it said it would do?


hmm resolution 1559?

oh right right it was up to the government to do that even though hezbollah has it's tentacles into that too.

Quote: What is proving to be a factual failure is Israel's double standard policies and aggression in lieu of diplomacy and fair negotiations with both Hezbollah and the Palestinians. How long the rest of the world is going to put up with it, remains to be seen.

israel was negotiating with fatah. hamas came into power and basically put a big middle finger in israels face. then when hamas pulls it's crap and israel stops sending in aid hamas complains. who's having the double standard here?

[Moot]

The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: don't suppose you've given a thought about the Lebanese prisoners that were kidnapped by Israelis out of Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2001 and have been sitting in Israeli prisons without a trial for years?

kidnapped? i told gave you a reason why they probably got captured. if you get too close you're screwed. and why do peopel bring up the prisoners? you have no idea why they were captured. now, unless you have a CREDIBLE link to why these people were captured and proving they're innocent, your argument is based on nothing.
Yes, kidnapped. NTL, "anyone getting too close to Israel" is exactly the kind of aparteid policy I referred to earlier and it still isn't working. But I don't think that is why Israel is about to toss out its current leaders, do you?

Quote: Quote: No, I meant what I said, 'Israel's policies towards it's neighbors is antgagnositic. I might add it's also racist.
israel hasn't had trouble with egypt in years. israel hasn't had trouble with jordan in years. israel hasn't had trouble with saudi arabia in years. the only people being antagonized are the palestinians. israel withdrew from lebanon in 2000. israel is hardly antagonizing them.

What you and Isreal fail to understand is that the MAJORITY of the citizens in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia do not share the same sentiments towards Isreal or the US as their leaders. The leaders of these Arab countries walk a very thin line to appease their citizens and maintain relations with the US and Israel. A very unstable thin line.

Quote: ....and how is it racist? Israel has used apartied policies against Arabs for years. Why is that so surprising?

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/11/03/israeli_arabs/index.html

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Can you give a credible example where Hezbollah has not done what it said it would do?


hmm resolution 1559?

oh right right it was up to the government to do that even though hezbollah has it's tentacles into that too. Quote: What is proving to be a factual failure is Israel's double standard policies and aggression in lieu of diplomacy and fair negotiations with both Hezbollah and the Palestinians. How long the rest of the world is going to put up with it, remains to be seen.
israel was negotiating with fatah. hamas came into power and basically put a big middle finger in israels face. then when hamas pulls it's crap and israel stops sending in aid hamas complains. who's having the double standard here?

Hamas and Hezbollah were democratically elected by the people who live there. Isn't democracy what the US wanted?

It wasn't Hamas that first broke the ceasefire in Gaza or assassinated and/or kidnapped Hamas politicians from their beds. It was Israel.

Regarding Lebanon: I think it is extremely unreasonable and unrealistic to assume or even expect the leader of Lebanon who was just elected in May 06, to do what neither Israel or the US or the UN could do in 25 years and that is to disarm Hezbollah's militia in a few weeks. Israel expected Abbas to disarm Hamas within the first week of his election and of course he failed just as the Israelis set him up to do er uh, said he would. Do you see the absurdity of your argument?

[The Comrade]

Moot wrote: The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: don't suppose you've given a thought about the Lebanese prisoners that were kidnapped by Israelis out of Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2001 and have been sitting in Israeli prisons without a trial for years?

kidnapped? i told gave you a reason why they probably got captured. if you get too close you're screwed. and why do peopel bring up the prisoners? you have no idea why they were captured. now, unless you have a CREDIBLE link to why these people were captured and proving they're innocent, your argument is based on nothing.
Yes, kidnapped. NTL, "anyone getting too close to Israel" is exactly the kind of aparteid policy I referred to earlier and it still isn't working. But I don't think that is why Israel is about to toss out its current leaders, do you?

Quote: Quote: No, I meant what I said, 'Israel's policies towards it's neighbors is antgagnositic. I might add it's also racist.
israel hasn't had trouble with egypt in years. israel hasn't had trouble with jordan in years. israel hasn't had trouble with saudi arabia in years. the only people being antagonized are the palestinians. israel withdrew from lebanon in 2000. israel is hardly antagonizing them.

What you and Isreal fail to understand is that the MAJORITY of the citizens in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia do not share the same sentiments towards Isreal or the US as their leaders. The leaders of these Arab countries walk a very thin line to appease their citizens and maintain relations with the US and Israel. A very unstable thin line.

Quote: ....and how is it racist? Israel has used apartied policies against Arabs for years. Why is that so surprising?

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/11/03/israeli_arabs/index.html

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Can you give a credible example where Hezbollah has not done what it said it would do?


hmm resolution 1559?

oh right right it was up to the government to do that even though hezbollah has it's tentacles into that too. Quote: What is proving to be a factual failure is Israel's double standard policies and aggression in lieu of diplomacy and fair negotiations with both Hezbollah and the Palestinians. How long the rest of the world is going to put up with it, remains to be seen.
israel was negotiating with fatah. hamas came into power and basically put a big middle finger in israels face. then when hamas pulls it's crap and israel stops sending in aid hamas complains. who's having the double standard here?

Hamas and Hezbollah were democratically elected by the people who live there. Isn't democracy what the US wanted?

It wasn't Hamas that first broke the ceasefire in Gaza or assassinated and/or kidnapped Hamas politicians from their beds. It was Israel.

Regarding Lebanon: I think it is extremely unreasonable and unrealistic to assume or even expect the leader of Lebanon who was just elected in May 06, to do what neither Israel or the US or the UN could do in 25 years and that is to disarm Hezbollah's militia in a few weeks. Israel expected Abbas to disarm Hamas within the first week of his election and of course he failed just as the Israelis set him up to do er uh, said he would. Do you see the absurdity of your argument?


Quote: Yes, kidnapped. NTL, "anyone getting too close to Israel" is exactly the kind of aparteid policy I referred to earlier and it still isn't working. But I don't think that is why Israel is about to toss out its current leaders, do you?


NTL?

and how is strict protection of the borders apartheid? the policies of apartheid don't apply to israel. arabs enjoy every right that non-arabs enjoy. infact arabs are given more choices then non-arabs. for one they don't have to serve in the military if they don't want to. saying israel is using apartheid politices is ludicrous.


Quote: What you and Isreal fail to understand is that the MAJORITY of the citizens in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia do not share the same sentiments towards Isreal or the US as their leaders. The leaders of these Arab countries walk a very thin line to appease their citizens and maintain relations with the US and Israel. A very unstable thin line.


yes i'm sure egypt dislikes israel even though hamas attacks egypt too.
jordan for the most part is pro-west. and saudi arabia with this apparent hatred for israel has never attack them.

i fail to see how israel antagonizes these countries anyways.

Quote: Hamas and Hezbollah were democratically elected by the people who live there. Isn't democracy what the US wanted?


hitler was democratically elected. so what are you getting at? that democracies are unable to do wrong?

and the united states wanted fatah to win because fatah was actually negotiating for peace. what did hamas do when they first came into power? they gave israel a big fat middle finger. who's antagonizing who?


Quote: It wasn't Hamas that first broke the ceasefire in Gaza or assassinated and/or kidnapped Hamas politicians from their beds. It was Israel.

um as far as i know it WAS hamas that started attacking border outposts and border check points.

also nice spin "they were taken from their beds".please.

Quote: Regarding Lebanon: I think it is extremely unreasonable and unrealistic to assume or even expect the leader of Lebanon who was just elected in May 06, to do what neither Israel or the US or the UN could do in 25 years and that is to disarm Hezbollah's militia in a few weeks. Israel expected Abbas to disarm Hamas within the first week of his election and of course he failed just as the Israelis set him up to do er uh, said he would. Do you see the absurdity of your argument? [/quote]


lebanon could have asked for international help. they didn't they sat around and let hezbollah do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. not once did the leaders of lebanon even try and disarm hezbollah.

and how could mahmoud abbass have disarmed hamas? his own people didn't support him.


do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

[Claudia Schiffer]

whynot wrote: Quote: There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel

exactly israel and usa use the UN conseil as a utility to cover theirs criminal acts when they want , in order to give to this criminal act a law cover
in reality UN is now in holdup

Yes!!! Thank you! The UN could have been great but those 2 abuse it and discredit it...but the peopel are not stupid, they know.

[The Comrade]

Claudia Schiffer wrote: whynot wrote: Quote: There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel

exactly israel and usa use the UN conseil as a utility to cover theirs criminal acts when they want , in order to give to this criminal act a law cover
in reality UN is now in holdup

Yes!!! Thank you! The UN could have been great but those 2 abuse it and discredit it...but the peopel are not stupid, they know.

israel has no power in the UN.


the united states does.

[Claudia Schiffer]

The Comrade wrote: Claudia Schiffer wrote: whynot wrote: Quote: There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel

exactly israel and usa use the UN conseil as a utility to cover theirs criminal acts when they want , in order to give to this criminal act a law cover
in reality UN is now in holdup

Yes!!! Thank you! The UN could have been great but those 2 abuse it and discredit it...but the peopel are not stupid, they know.

israel has no power in the UN.


the united states does.

You know what i meant.

[Moot]

The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: Yes, kidnapped. NTL, "anyone getting too close to Israel" is exactly the kind of aparteid policy I referred to earlier and it still isn't working. But I don't think that is why Israel is about to toss out its current leaders, do you?


NTL?

NTL = Never the less

Quote: and how is strict protection of the borders apartheid? the policies of apartheid don't apply to israel. arabs enjoy every right that non-arabs enjoy. infact arabs are given more choices then non-arabs. for one they don't have to serve in the military if they don't want to. saying israel is using apartheid politices is ludicrous.

Aparteid: The policy or practice of political, legal, economic, or social discrimination, as against the members of a minority group: segregation, separatism. See include/exclude.
http://www.answers.com/apartheid&r=67

....limited or no citizenship rights, segregation, arbitrary detentions, collective punishment, and other injustices based on race, nationality, ethnicity, or religion....
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/palestine/apartheid.html

There is little difference between how the Israelis treat Arabs and how the Dutch aparteid treated Blacks in So. Africa. From reading the above link, apparently, neither do the South Africans.

Quote: Quote: What you and Isreal fail to understand is that the MAJORITY of the citizens in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia do not share the same sentiments towards Isreal or the US as their leaders. The leaders of these Arab countries walk a very thin line to appease their citizens and maintain relations with the US and Israel. A very unstable thin line.

yes i'm sure egypt dislikes israel even though hamas attacks egypt too.
jordan for the most part is pro-west. and saudi arabia with this apparent hatred for israel has never attack them.

i fail to see how israel antagonizes these countries anyways. [/quote]
You are only talking about the leaders of those countries, not the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

Israeli and US policies in the ME are making it very difficult for the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to stay in power. Why do you think they are so quiet?

How long do you think the House of Saud and the other Arab leaders will stay in power if they continue to quietly side with the US and Israel and against the majority opinion of citizens in their own countries? The resentment against Israeli and US policies is growing in the ME. It is turning moderate Muslims into radicals. Don't you think 9/11 was a good enough example of this?

Quote: Quote: Hamas and Hezbollah were democratically elected by the people who live there. Isn't democracy what the US wanted?

hitler was democratically elected. so what are you getting at? that democracies are unable to do wrong?

The US should be careful what it wishes for. Of course not all democracies are good or the same, just as not all non-democracies are bad or the same. The point is, the US is learning that it needs to negotiate with all kinds of governments, not just the ones that share it's values or agrees with its policies. China certainly doesn't share our values but look at US Chinese relations now. But then, aren't differences what negotitions and diplomacy are for?

Quote: and the united states wanted fatah to win because fatah was actually negotiating for peace. what did hamas do when they first came into power? they gave israel a big fat middle finger. who's antagonizing who?

"...Fatah’s corruption, Israel’s tough measures and international indifference to the plight of the Palestinians were to blame for Hamas’ strong showing."

Washington miscalculated in pushing for the vote as part of its pro-democracy campaign in the Arab world, said moderate Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawihe. “The Americans insisted on having the election now, so they have to respect the results of the election, as we all do,” she said.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/page/2/

Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people because they were providing basic community services such as running water, garbage removal, medicine, schools and social programs for the Palestinians, whereas the corrupt Israeli backed Fatah was not. If from an average Palestinians perspective, who would you vote for?

But just like Abbas, Hamas didn't have time to do anything before it was demonized, undermined and sabotaged by Israel and the US. Any blame for the failure to disarm Hamas lies in great part with Israeli attempts to derail every Palestinian government that ever existed before it has a chance to succeed at anything.

Olmert: Israel won’t negotiate with Hamas
Militant group quiet after landslide victory in Palestinian elections
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

Quote: Quote: It wasn't Hamas that first broke the ceasefire in Gaza or assassinated and/or kidnapped Hamas politicians from their beds. It was Israel.
um as far as i know it WAS hamas that started attacking border outposts and border check points.

also nice spin "they were taken from their beds".please.

Actually, I think Israel broke the ceasefire first when they illegally snuck into Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians on June 24th, the day before Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

Quote: Kidnapped By Israel

...In the Observer of 25 June, it merited a mere paragraph hidden in the "World in brief" section, revealing that the previous day a team of Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip to "detain" two Palestinians Israel claims are members of Hamas.

The significance of the mission was alluded to in a final phrase describing this as "the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago". More precisely, it was the first time the Israeli army had re-entered the Gaza Strip, directly violating Palestinian control of the territory, since it supposedly left in August last year....read
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10537

It seems the two kidnapped Palestinians were a doctor and his young son. They were Palestinian citizens, but were they Hamas? Who really knows? But one thing is for sure, the Israelis knew the Palestinian militants would retaliate. By the looks of it, they were probably counting on it.

Quote: Quote: Regarding Lebanon: I think it is extremely unreasonable and unrealistic to assume or even expect the leader of Lebanon who was just elected in May 06, to do what neither Israel or the US or the UN could do in 25 years and that is to disarm Hezbollah's militia in a few weeks. Israel expected Abbas to disarm Hamas within the first week of his election and of course he failed just as the Israelis set him up to do er uh, said he would. Do you see the absurdity of your argument?
lebanon could have asked for international help. they didn't they sat around and let hezbollah do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. not once did the leaders of lebanon even try and disarm hezbollah.
Again, what could international help do if the Israelis or the UN couldn't disarm Hezbollah in 20 years of occupation?

If the UN, US and Israel really wanted Hezbollah to disarm, then why didn't they negotiate with them directly?

Quote: do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

No more than I see the absurdity of US tax dollars supporting a terrorist state of Zionist extremism.

[MoscowMatt]

David2004 wrote: As United Nations Resolution 1701 is passed the Israelis have tripled the number of Israeli military forces in Southern Lebanon. This is clearly in violation of the spirit of United Nation Resolution 1701. There is no other nation in the world that is in violations of so many United Nations Resolutions and other International Laws as State of Israel. The Israeli will use so-called “legal loopholes” in the laws and resolutions saying they did not have to comply.

To compound things even more the United Nation passes Resolution 1701 saying they will send up to 15,000 United Nations Troops to keep the peace along side 15,000 Lebanese soldiers. Neither of who are battle trained nor ready to fight like the Israeli and Hezbollah forces. The Israeli the military in control of the region will make it near to impossible for the United Nations to carry out its mandate. Only NATO forces have the clout with Turkey playing a pivotal role in defusing this crisis. The Israeli and the United States are the partners in the war crimes in Lebanon. With the majority of the Israeli heavy military armament made in the United States and a lot of it paid for by American taxpayers.

The truce for how ever long it may last. Will be an open a widow for the outside world to see the horrific damage done to Southern Lebanon by the Israeli military forces. The American people will see how their tax dollars are being spent by Israel. From the very beginning of the War the Israeli made it clear they were not going after the Lebanese government or people. They were going after Hezbollah. The evidence left behind in the destruction of Lebanon will point to the contrary. It will point to collective punishment of the Lebanese people. With the majority of the damage that the Israelis have done in Lebanon was with American made weapons of death and destruction.

The Israeli see no wrong in their actions in Lebanon. For they have been doing it to the Palestinian people for many years. Israel is a nation built and trained to go to war in the name of national security. For every war Israel fights the blowback becomes greater because they are fighting for the unjust occupation of another people land. Yes, there are many problems on both sides. Without us addressing the problems on our side there chance for the other side to address their own problems from within. http://www.globalcrier.blogspot.com/

Hmm Israel and US commit war crimes because civilians died in a war. Well in that case in every war ever fought the respective countries are all guilty of war crimes!!

If the IDF were lining up Lebanese civilans and gunning them down then you have a war crime. If IDF missles accidentally kill civilians then you do not!

[The Comrade]

Moot wrote: The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: Yes, kidnapped. NTL, "anyone getting too close to Israel" is exactly the kind of aparteid policy I referred to earlier and it still isn't working. But I don't think that is why Israel is about to toss out its current leaders, do you?


NTL?

NTL = Never the less

Quote: and how is strict protection of the borders apartheid? the policies of apartheid don't apply to israel. arabs enjoy every right that non-arabs enjoy. infact arabs are given more choices then non-arabs. for one they don't have to serve in the military if they don't want to. saying israel is using apartheid politices is ludicrous.

Aparteid: The policy or practice of political, legal, economic, or social discrimination, as against the members of a minority group: segregation, separatism. See include/exclude.
http://www.answers.com/apartheid&r=67

....limited or no citizenship rights, segregation, arbitrary detentions, collective punishment, and other injustices based on race, nationality, ethnicity, or religion....
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/palestine/apartheid.html

There is little difference between how the Israelis treat Arabs and how the Dutch aparteid treated Blacks in So. Africa. From reading the above link, apparently, neither do the South Africans.

Quote: Quote: What you and Isreal fail to understand is that the MAJORITY of the citizens in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia do not share the same sentiments towards Isreal or the US as their leaders. The leaders of these Arab countries walk a very thin line to appease their citizens and maintain relations with the US and Israel. A very unstable thin line.

yes i'm sure egypt dislikes israel even though hamas attacks egypt too.
jordan for the most part is pro-west. and saudi arabia with this apparent hatred for israel has never attack them.

i fail to see how israel antagonizes these countries anyways.
You are only talking about the leaders of those countries, not the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

Israeli and US policies in the ME are making it very difficult for the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to stay in power. Why do you think they are so quiet?

How long do you think the House of Saud and the other Arab leaders will stay in power if they continue to quietly side with the US and Israel and against the majority opinion of citizens in their own countries? The resentment against Israeli and US policies is growing in the ME. It is turning moderate Muslims into radicals. Don't you think 9/11 was a good enough example of this?

Quote: Quote: Hamas and Hezbollah were democratically elected by the people who live there. Isn't democracy what the US wanted?

hitler was democratically elected. so what are you getting at? that democracies are unable to do wrong?

The US should be careful what it wishes for. Of course not all democracies are good or the same, just as not all non-democracies are bad or the same. The point is, the US is learning that it needs to negotiate with all kinds of governments, not just the ones that share it's values or agrees with its policies. China certainly doesn't share our values but look at US Chinese relations now. But then, aren't differences what negotitions and diplomacy are for?

Quote: and the united states wanted fatah to win because fatah was actually negotiating for peace. what did hamas do when they first came into power? they gave israel a big fat middle finger. who's antagonizing who?

"...Fatah’s corruption, Israel’s tough measures and international indifference to the plight of the Palestinians were to blame for Hamas’ strong showing."

Washington miscalculated in pushing for the vote as part of its pro-democracy campaign in the Arab world, said moderate Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawihe. “The Americans insisted on having the election now, so they have to respect the results of the election, as we all do,” she said.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/page/2/

Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people because they were providing basic community services such as running water, garbage removal, medicine, schools and social programs for the Palestinians, whereas the corrupt Israeli backed Fatah was not. If from an average Palestinians perspective, who would you vote for?

But just like Abbas, Hamas didn't have time to do anything before it was demonized, undermined and sabotaged by Israel and the US. Any blame for the failure to disarm Hamas lies in great part with Israeli attempts to derail every Palestinian government that ever existed before it has a chance to succeed at anything.

Olmert: Israel won’t negotiate with Hamas
Militant group quiet after landslide victory in Palestinian elections
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11009552/

Quote: Quote: It wasn't Hamas that first broke the ceasefire in Gaza or assassinated and/or kidnapped Hamas politicians from their beds. It was Israel.
um as far as i know it WAS hamas that started attacking border outposts and border check points.

also nice spin "they were taken from their beds".please.

Actually, I think Israel broke the ceasefire first when they illegally snuck into Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians on June 24th, the day before Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

Quote: Kidnapped By Israel

...In the Observer of 25 June, it merited a mere paragraph hidden in the "World in brief" section, revealing that the previous day a team of Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip to "detain" two Palestinians Israel claims are members of Hamas.

The significance of the mission was alluded to in a final phrase describing this as "the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago". More precisely, it was the first time the Israeli army had re-entered the Gaza Strip, directly violating Palestinian control of the territory, since it supposedly left in August last year....read
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10537

It seems the two kidnapped Palestinians were a doctor and his young son. They were Palestinian citizens, but were they Hamas? Who really knows? But one thing is for sure, the Israelis knew the Palestinian militants would retaliate. By the looks of it, they were probably counting on it.

Quote: Quote: Regarding Lebanon: I think it is extremely unreasonable and unrealistic to assume or even expect the leader of Lebanon who was just elected in May 06, to do what neither Israel or the US or the UN could do in 25 years and that is to disarm Hezbollah's militia in a few weeks. Israel expected Abbas to disarm Hamas within the first week of his election and of course he failed just as the Israelis set him up to do er uh, said he would. Do you see the absurdity of your argument?
lebanon could have asked for international help. they didn't they sat around and let hezbollah do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. not once did the leaders of lebanon even try and disarm hezbollah.
Again, what could international help do if the Israelis or the UN couldn't disarm Hezbollah in 20 years of occupation?

If the UN, US and Israel really wanted Hezbollah to disarm, then why didn't they negotiate with them directly?

Quote: do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

No more than I see the absurdity of US tax dollars supporting a terrorist state of Zionist extremism.[/quote]


Quote: There is little difference between how the Israelis treat Arabs and how the Dutch aparteid treated Blacks in So. Africa. From reading the above link, apparently, neither do the South Africans.


once again. arabs living in israel are treated just the same as the israelis.

Quote: You are only talking about the leaders of those countries, not the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

Israeli and US policies in the ME are making it very difficult for the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to stay in power. Why do you think they are so quiet?


saudi arabia is a monarchy. they don't care about what the people think. they stay in power regardless.

jordan is a monarchy and doesn't care what they're people say. they're going to have no trouble staying in power.

egypt is a republic. if the people didn't support their leaders and what they do with the west then they wouldn't have been voted into power.

Quote: The US should be careful what it wishes for. Of course not all democracies are good or the same, just as not all non-democracies are bad or the same. The point is, the US is learning that it needs to negotiate with all kinds of governments, not just the ones that share it's values or agrees with its policies. China certainly doesn't share our values but look at US Chinese relations now. But then, aren't differences what negotitions and diplomacy are for?

the PLO turned into Fatah. america knew exactly what they were wishing for. the thing is PLO/Fatah stopped sponsored attacks on israel. they were negotiating peace with israel(ang getting things done).

now enters Hamas. they start spewing anti-west propaganda. anti israeli propaganda. start attacking border outposts(egyptian and israeli). all of this in the first few months of election. they don't want diplomacy. the only time they wanted diplomacy was when israel started bombing khan yuni and gazzah.

Quote: Actually, I think Israel broke the ceasefire first when they illegally snuck into Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians on June 24th, the day before Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

wrong. the first few months hamas was in power they began attacking border outposts and checkpoints. israel didn't start bombing the gaza strip because of it so it didn't make big news.


Quote: Again, what could international help do if the Israelis or the UN couldn't disarm Hezbollah in 20 years of occupation?

If the UN, US and Israel really wanted Hezbollah to disarm, then why didn't they negotiate with them directly?

Quote: do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

No more than I see the absurdity of US tax dollars supporting a terrorist state of Zionist extremism.


it doesn't matter if it could or could not do something. the fact is lebanon never tried which shows they never had an intention of listening to resolution 1559.

hey guess what the defence minister for lebanon said after the ceaefire?

"we will not disarm hezbollah"

not we can't, we won't.

[Moot]

The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: There is little difference between how the Israelis treat Arabs and how the Dutch aparteid treated Blacks in So. Africa. From reading the above link, apparently, neither do the South Africans.

once again. arabs living in israel are treated just the same as the israelis.

The Israeli Arabs claim they are not treated the same as Israeli Jews. So who are we supposed to believe, you or them?

Quote: Israeli Arabs: Israel is racist http://www.newsdesk.org/archives/000267.php

Arab citizens of Israel

....According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."...

"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens....

"government spending on children was proportionally lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas. ... According to the Government's February 2002 report to the U.N., government investment per Arab pupil was approximately 60 percent of investment per Jewish pupil. ....

"According to a report by Mossawa, racist violence against Arab citizens has increased, and the Government has not done enough to prevent this problem. ....

The Jewish National Fund's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews....

...the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth. In February, security forces demolished several homes allegedly built without authorization in the Arab village of Beineh." ...

"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis." ....

...the list goes on and on....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Anti-Arabism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Anti-Arabism_in_Israel


Quote: Moot wrote: You are only talking about the leaders of those countries, not the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

Israeli and US policies in the ME are making it very difficult for the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to stay in power. Why do you think they are so quiet?

saudi arabia is a monarchy. they don't care about what the people think. they stay in power regardless.

jordan is a monarchy and doesn't care what they're people say. they're going to have no trouble staying in power.

egypt is a republic. if the people didn't support their leaders and what they do with the west then they wouldn't have been voted into power.

Monarchys are no guarentee of longetivety, especially when the peasants get angry and want change. And too, Egyptians have been known to assassinate a leader or two.

Quote: Arab Anger at Their Governments Grow

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - As their anger against Israel and America swells, protesters across the Middle East are also increasingly venting their frustration at their Arab rulers, especially in moderate countries whose governments have been reliable U.S. allies....

The rising resentment is weighing heavily on Arab leaders as their foreign ministers gather in Beirut on Monday for an emergency meeting. Moderates like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia may want a halt to the fighting, but they can't be seen as backing a U.S.-promoted cease-fire plan that Hezbollah has depicted as a surrender.

Even more worrisome for Arab leaders is the possibility violence may turn on them. ....
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=13716&TagID=2


The article goes on to list all the recent protests and demonstrations in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.


Quote: Quote: The US should be careful what it wishes for. Of course not all democracies are good or the same, just as not all non-democracies are bad or the same. The point is, the US is learning that it needs to negotiate with all kinds of governments, not just the ones that share it's values or agrees with its policies. China certainly doesn't share our values but look at US Chinese relations now. But then, aren't differences what negotitions and diplomacy are for?

the PLO turned into Fatah. america knew exactly what they were wishing for. the thing is PLO/Fatah stopped sponsored attacks on israel. they were negotiating peace with israel(ang getting things done).

now enters Hamas. they start spewing anti-west propaganda. anti israeli propaganda. start attacking border outposts(egyptian and israeli). all of this in the first few months of election. they don't want diplomacy. the only time they wanted diplomacy was when israel started bombing khan yuni and gazzah.

Israel undermined Abbas's authority at every turn from the moment he was elected. Any pretext of negotiating peace through Fatah was constantly undermined by the Israelis bulldozing down Palestinian homes, sniping their children on the way to school, kidnapping militant suspects and bombing entire neighborhoods in the middle of the night. All of this aggression and collective punishment on the entire population undermined Abbas and the PAs authority to reign in the militant factions.

Before Hamas was even elected the US and Israel were making threats to cut off their funding. Hamas never had a chance to spew anything because the US and Israel did it for them.

The US forced the Palestinian election just like it did in Iraq. And yet, the US was caught off guard when Fatah lost the election because they had spent so much money trying to influence the vote. Gee, it worked in the US so why not Gaza?

Quote: Quote: Actually, I think Israel broke the ceasefire first when they illegally snuck into Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians on June 24th, the day before Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

wrong. the first few months hamas was in power they began attacking border outposts and checkpoints. israel didn't start bombing the gaza strip because of it so it didn't make big news.

I provided evidence, what do you have?

Hamas has many factions and it may not have even been Hamas at all. So which faction of Hamas are you accusing of attacking border outposts?

IMO, what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is comparable to holding the entire US military responsible for the actions of a few troops at Abu Graib and then sanctioning the water, food and medicine for the entire US population (including democrats) for electing Bush. It's not right and according to the UN, collective punishment is illegal under international law. So when are you going to hold Israel accountable to all the UN resolutions and international law that it has and continues to ignore?



Quote: Quote: Again, what could international help do if the Israelis or the UN couldn't disarm Hezbollah in 20 years of occupation?

If the UN, US and Israel really wanted Hezbollah to disarm, then why didn't they negotiate with them directly?

Quote: do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

No more than I see the absurdity of US tax dollars supporting a terrorist state of Zionist extremism.


it doesn't matter if it could or could not do something. the fact is lebanon never tried which shows they never had an intention of listening to resolution 1559.

It's hypocritical to argue Lebanon ignored UN resolution 1559 and not mention all the UN resolutions that Israel has and continues to ignore.

Anyway, Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army. They didn't even tell the Lebanese government that it was going to kidnap the IDF soldiers. So how do you propose the Lebanese government disarm or stop Hezbollah? Should they have called in the US Marines?

Quote: hey guess what the defence minister for lebanon said after the ceaefire?

"we will not disarm hezbollah"

not we can't, we won't.
Hezbollah is about 1/3 of the Lebanese population. They are Lebanese. Recently elected, they are now the majority in the Lebanese Parliment. What exactly is the Lebanese government supposed to do? Attack it's own citizens? Where would the funding come from? Lebanon has a massive deficit from the civil war it had. You keep saying they should have stopped Hezbollah as if it was a simple thing, but you never realistically say how? Obviously, Israel couldn't eradicate Hezbollah with a bombing campaign or ground maneuvers. So if Israel couldn't disarm or destroy Hezbollah, then what do think the Lebanese government could do? I would really like to know.

Lebanon was just starting to get back on its feet after being occupied for 15 years and a 15 year civil war before that. The new democratically elected leader of Lebanon has only been in office for three months. He didn't have time to disarm Hezbollah and you're right, maybe he never intended to. But with Hezbollah getting elected to Parliment and gaining political legitiimacy, all the signs were there that given a little more time, Hezbollah would have been dissolved and/or absorbed into the Lebaneze government and army ....without bloodshed. But Hezbollah blew it and is a lot blame for this current conflict, no doubt. There are no winners in this conflict, only losers.