Political Crossfire Forums

[The Comrade]

Moot wrote: The Comrade wrote: Moot wrote: There is little difference between how the Israelis treat Arabs and how the Dutch aparteid treated Blacks in So. Africa. From reading the above link, apparently, neither do the South Africans.

once again. arabs living in israel are treated just the same as the israelis.

The Israeli Arabs claim they are not treated the same as Israeli Jews. So who are we supposed to believe, you or them?

Quote: Israeli Arabs: Israel is racist http://www.newsdesk.org/archives/000267.php

Arab citizens of Israel

....According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."...

"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens....

"government spending on children was proportionally lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas. ... According to the Government's February 2002 report to the U.N., government investment per Arab pupil was approximately 60 percent of investment per Jewish pupil. ....

"According to a report by Mossawa, racist violence against Arab citizens has increased, and the Government has not done enough to prevent this problem. ....

The Jewish National Fund's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews....

...the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth. In February, security forces demolished several homes allegedly built without authorization in the Arab village of Beineh." ...

"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis." ....

...the list goes on and on....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Anti-Arabism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Anti-Arabism_in_Israel


Quote: Moot wrote: You are only talking about the leaders of those countries, not the majority of the people they supposedly represent.

Israeli and US policies in the ME are making it very difficult for the Arab leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan to stay in power. Why do you think they are so quiet?

saudi arabia is a monarchy. they don't care about what the people think. they stay in power regardless.

jordan is a monarchy and doesn't care what they're people say. they're going to have no trouble staying in power.

egypt is a republic. if the people didn't support their leaders and what they do with the west then they wouldn't have been voted into power.

Monarchys are no guarentee of longetivety, especially when the peasants get angry and want change. And too, Egyptians have been known to assassinate a leader or two.

Quote: Arab Anger at Their Governments Grow

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - As their anger against Israel and America swells, protesters across the Middle East are also increasingly venting their frustration at their Arab rulers, especially in moderate countries whose governments have been reliable U.S. allies....

The rising resentment is weighing heavily on Arab leaders as their foreign ministers gather in Beirut on Monday for an emergency meeting. Moderates like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia may want a halt to the fighting, but they can't be seen as backing a U.S.-promoted cease-fire plan that Hezbollah has depicted as a surrender.

Even more worrisome for Arab leaders is the possibility violence may turn on them. ....
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=13716&TagID=2


The article goes on to list all the recent protests and demonstrations in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.


Quote: Quote: The US should be careful what it wishes for. Of course not all democracies are good or the same, just as not all non-democracies are bad or the same. The point is, the US is learning that it needs to negotiate with all kinds of governments, not just the ones that share it's values or agrees with its policies. China certainly doesn't share our values but look at US Chinese relations now. But then, aren't differences what negotitions and diplomacy are for?

the PLO turned into Fatah. america knew exactly what they were wishing for. the thing is PLO/Fatah stopped sponsored attacks on israel. they were negotiating peace with israel(ang getting things done).

now enters Hamas. they start spewing anti-west propaganda. anti israeli propaganda. start attacking border outposts(egyptian and israeli). all of this in the first few months of election. they don't want diplomacy. the only time they wanted diplomacy was when israel started bombing khan yuni and gazzah.

Israel undermined Abbas's authority at every turn from the moment he was elected. Any pretext of negotiating peace through Fatah was constantly undermined by the Israelis bulldozing down Palestinian homes, sniping their children on the way to school, kidnapping militant suspects and bombing entire neighborhoods in the middle of the night. All of this aggression and collective punishment on the entire population undermined Abbas and the PAs authority to reign in the militant factions.

Before Hamas was even elected the US and Israel were making threats to cut off their funding. Hamas never had a chance to spew anything because the US and Israel did it for them.

The US forced the Palestinian election just like it did in Iraq. And yet, the US was caught off guard when Fatah lost the election because they had spent so much money trying to influence the vote. Gee, it worked in the US so why not Gaza?

Quote: Quote: Actually, I think Israel broke the ceasefire first when they illegally snuck into Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinian civilians on June 24th, the day before Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.

wrong. the first few months hamas was in power they began attacking border outposts and checkpoints. israel didn't start bombing the gaza strip because of it so it didn't make big news.

I provided evidence, what do you have?

Hamas has many factions and it may not have even been Hamas at all. So which faction of Hamas are you accusing of attacking border outposts?

IMO, what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is comparable to holding the entire US military responsible for the actions of a few troops at Abu Graib and then sanctioning the water, food and medicine for the entire US population (including democrats) for electing Bush. It's not right and according to the UN, collective punishment is illegal under international law. So when are you going to hold Israel accountable to all the UN resolutions and international law that it has and continues to ignore?



Quote: Quote: Again, what could international help do if the Israelis or the UN couldn't disarm Hezbollah in 20 years of occupation?

If the UN, US and Israel really wanted Hezbollah to disarm, then why didn't they negotiate with them directly?

Quote: do you see the absurdity of supporting terrorist factions?

No more than I see the absurdity of US tax dollars supporting a terrorist state of Zionist extremism.


it doesn't matter if it could or could not do something. the fact is lebanon never tried which shows they never had an intention of listening to resolution 1559.

It's hypocritical to argue Lebanon ignored UN resolution 1559 and not mention all the UN resolutions that Israel has and continues to ignore.

Anyway, Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army. They didn't even tell the Lebanese government that it was going to kidnap the IDF soldiers. So how do you propose the Lebanese government disarm or stop Hezbollah? Should they have called in the US Marines?

Quote: hey guess what the defence minister for lebanon said after the ceaefire?

"we will not disarm hezbollah"

not we can't, we won't.
Hezbollah is about 1/3 of the Lebanese population. They are Lebanese. Recently elected, they are now the majority in the Lebanese Parliment. What exactly is the Lebanese government supposed to do? Attack it's own citizens? Where would the funding come from? Lebanon has a massive deficit from the civil war it had. You keep saying they should have stopped Hezbollah as if it was a simple thing, but you never realistically say how? Obviously, Israel couldn't eradicate Hezbollah with a bombing campaign or ground maneuvers. So if Israel couldn't disarm or destroy Hezbollah, then what do think the Lebanese government could do? I would really like to know.

Lebanon was just starting to get back on its feet after being occupied for 15 years and a 15 year civil war before that. The new democratically elected leader of Lebanon has only been in office for three months. He didn't have time to disarm Hezbollah and you're right, maybe he never intended to. But with Hezbollah getting elected to Parliment and gaining political legitiimacy, all the signs were there that given a little more time, Hezbollah would have been dissolved and/or absorbed into the Lebaneze government and army ....without bloodshed. But Hezbollah blew it and is a lot blame for this current conflict, no doubt. There are no winners in this conflict, only losers.

i accept defeat.

[maalox]

david2004 u`re smart

[Yoadm]

You used wikipedia as a source, in order to prove that arab-Israelis cant buy land in Israel?

I have many Arab friends in Israel who never had any problem reguarding land purchase.

[Pebble]

Nico wrote: Pebble wrote: Nico, I think that the blog is the poster's own. ;)
Yeah I know ;) , I just don't want to have a cut and paste from a blog, without it being qualified by a secondary comment/ proposition. Otherwise it can come off as spamming, even though I'm sure it isn't really the intention of the poster. I don't want to sound awkward, but it's a fine line when someone references their own material. Anyway I'll leave it as is for now.

Ah, that makes sense I suppose, though . I just wasn't sure if you'd caught it. ;)

[maalox]

cool pic yoadm