Political Crossfire Forums

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

micfranklin wrote: I thought we were talking about the flag. Why should we talk about something thats a discrace to humanity...

micfranklin wrote: But if it helps, Lincoln was a pretty big tyrant in my history books. He's certainly not portrayed as one in my AP US History book I had last year. To me he's the biggest tyrrant in US history with FDR in a close second.

[micfranklin]

Well AK I certainly don't consider the Confederate flag a disgrace to humanity.

[thehollowman]

It is both.

[Revenant]

Anarko-Kapitalizt wrote: micfranklin wrote: I thought we were talking about the flag. Why should we talk about something thats a discrace to humanity...

micfranklin wrote: But if it helps, Lincoln was a pretty big tyrant in my history books. He's certainly not portrayed as one in my AP US History book I had last year. To me he's the biggest tyrrant in US history with FDR in a close second.

I put FDR first.

[micfranklin]

Overall, my final and main point is that I don't see the Confederate flag (at least the one we're all thinking of) as a racist symbol. I just view it as a symbol of the South's pride in the 1800's.

[TNBiologist]

[quote="VBach37] The Confederate States seceeded out of fear that the Federal Government under Lincoln would attempt to abolish slavery. [/quote]

You really need to check your history. Slavery did not become a major issue for either side until Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in order to keep Britian and France from providing support to the Confederacy. Once he did this enlistments in the Union army dropped and he was forced to draft soldiers which started draft riots in northern cities including New York. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html
Slavery was already onits way out in the South at the start of the civil war. The industrial revolution was making slavery obsolete by making it cheaper for machines to do the work that slavers did without having to feed, house and provide medical treatment. I cannot locate an online source but look at some books by Gary B Nash, a professor at UCLA.

Quote: Family who fought for the right to subjugate an entire race.

Look at the black soldiers who willingly fought for the South, do you really think they were fighting for slavery? (see my post in this debate for multiple links to articles about black confederates but here are some not included earlier)
http://www.lizmichael.com/blkconfd.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1693202/posts

Here is a book about the Confederates plan to free and arm all blacks. http://www.amazon.com/Confederate-Emancipation-Southern-Slaves-during/dp/0195147626 Several Southern Generals were the sponcers of the idea.

[VBach37]

If slavery was not an issue, than would you mind explaining why the Confederate Constitution, identical to the US Constitution in almost every respect, explicitly included provisions to protect slavery,
Quote: No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed [by Congress] .

For a practice which was "already on its way out," the Confederates seemed pretty intent on mantaing it.

Fact: Abraham Lincoln was elected on a platform which included a desire to halt the spread of slavery into the western territories and future states.

Fact: Such a practice would innevitabely result in a Congress willing and able to abolish slavery throughout the nation.

Fact: The Southern economy was heavily dependant on slavery at the time, and was threatened by the prospect of losing their captive labor force.

Fact: Early drafts of the Confederate Constitution included a provision to prohibit free (non-slave) states from joining the CSA, though this was ultimately rejected.

Fact: Black troops, who were offered freedom in exchange for military service (or were frequently donated by their owners for the war effort) were barred from service as combat soldiers, but were instead relegated to support positions until the very end of the war.

Fact: When the United States Army organized Black infantry, the Confederacy declared that any blacks found in Federal uniform would be summarily executed, constituting an unprecedented violation military tradition, the so-called "rules of war" and basic human decency.

Fact: State flags, such as that of Georgia, did not incorporate the Confederate battleflag until nearly a century after the Civil War, in the midst of the national debate over civil rights.

[Snake]

First, we have to cover the basics.

For some reason, a lot of people think the civil war was about slavery. This is bullsh*t, northern folk had slaves too. Lincoln wrote the emancipation proclamation as a political move. Lincoln was a great politician, but he was a bastard just the same. Just check out any source on the unions treatment of confederate POWs. Lincoln knew about this, he even had a freind that was involved with the camps that was a vicious monster towards the prisoners.

The civil war was about, and ONLY ABOUT the seperation of the north and the south. Slavery was the spin to further villify the 'enemy'.

The flag is heritage. Nothing else.

[VBach37]

Kim Jong Ill wrote: First, we have to cover the basics.

For some reason, a lot of people think the civil war was about slavery. This is bullsh*t, northern folk had slaves too.
Slavery was illegal in the North by 1804. Take a US history class before you make a fool of yourself.

Quote: Lincoln wrote the emancipation proclamation as a political move. Lincoln was a great politician, but he was a bastard just the same. Just check out any source on the unions treatment of confederate POWs.
As bad as Union POW camps were, the Confederates were even worse. Read up on a nice little place known as Andersonville.

Quote: The civil war was about, and ONLY ABOUT the seperation of the north and the south. Slavery was the spin to further villify the 'enemy'.

The flag is heritage. Nothing else.

Black and white is the realm of the ignorant and foolish. The war was not entirely about slavery, but to deny the role it played as a cause of the war is absurd.

Nothing in this world can be classified as one thing and one thing only. While the flag is a part of Southern heritage, it is also a symbol of slavery and racism. The only thing for intelligent people to debate is whether or not the flag's status as a symbol of slavery is of more significance than its status as a symbol of heritage.


P.S. Who are you to call Lincoln a bastard when you clearly deify a despotic madman like Kim Jong Ill?

[TNBiologist]

VBach37 wrote: Slavery was illegal in the North by 1804. Take a US history class before you make a fool of yourself.

Slavery was a state issue until the civil war and several states that sided with the Union (Kentucky, Maryland, Deleware, Missouri) were still slave states during the civil war, including after the Emanicapation Prolamation, intil the Congress passed an ammendment to the constitution outlawing slavery after the civil war. Some union states had outlawed slavery before the war but many had all had and even many that had outlawed slavery allowed slave catchers to hunt and capture run-away slaves within their boundaries.

Map showing slave and free states and territories just proir to the civil war:http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog10/maps/

Map showing slave staes and free states at eth outbreak of the civil war along with when each free state outlawed slavery:http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/geography/slavery_abolition_us.htm

[Poon]

Slavery Su.cks, Even the Supposedly Peaceful Tibetans had slaves...

[EugenicHegemony]

Kim Jong Ill wrote: First, we have to cover the basics.

For some reason, a lot of people think the civil war was about slavery. This is bullsh*t, northern folk had slaves too. Lincoln wrote the emancipation proclamation as a political move. Lincoln was a great politician, but he was a bastard just the same. Just check out any source on the unions treatment of confederate POWs. Lincoln knew about this, he even had a freind that was involved with the camps that was a vicious monster towards the prisoners.

The civil war was about, and ONLY ABOUT the seperation of the north and the south. Slavery was the spin to further villify the 'enemy'.

The flag is heritage. Nothing else. The Civil War was about control, and what wanted it. The Civil War was about creating a supreme federal power, and they succeeded. If we must have a governing entity, then The Articles of Confederation is a superior document in every way, and puts the USC to shame....

Quote: Slavery was the spin to further villify the 'enemy'. The "enemy" was ans is the Federal Government, and their seemingly endless reaching whip of "freedom".....

[VMAN]

Let me tell you what the confederate flag actually is. It is a symbol of a shortlived nation founded on the principles of treason and disloyalty the people who designed the flag were traitors as were those who saluted it and fought under it and those who were patrons of it. That said it is nothing more than a rag a putrid sinful rotting wretched hellish thing. I believe that treason should be a capital offense if there are any and I don't think that a flag of treason is fit to wipe the feces from my loyal red blooded American ass. Regardless of connotation.

[Bobby Chicken]

VBach37 wrote: If slavery was not an issue, than would you mind explaining why the Confederate Constitution, identical to the US Constitution in almost every respect, explicitly included provisions to protect slavery,
Quote: No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed [by Congress] .

For a practice which was "already on its way out," the Confederates seemed pretty intent on mantaing it.

Fact: Abraham Lincoln was elected on a platform which included a desire to halt the spread of slavery into the western territories and future states.

Fact: Such a practice would innevitabely result in a Congress willing and able to abolish slavery throughout the nation.

Fact: The Southern economy was heavily dependant on slavery at the time, and was threatened by the prospect of losing their captive labor force.

Fact: Early drafts of the Confederate Constitution included a provision to prohibit free (non-slave) states from joining the CSA, though this was ultimately rejected.

Fact: Black troops, who were offered freedom in exchange for military service (or were frequently donated by their owners for the war effort) were barred from service as combat soldiers, but were instead relegated to support positions until the very end of the war.

Fact: When the United States Army organized Black infantry, the Confederacy declared that any blacks found in Federal uniform would be summarily executed, constituting an unprecedented violation military tradition, the so-called "rules of war" and basic human decency.

Fact: State flags, such as that of Georgia, did not incorporate the Confederate battleflag until nearly a century after the Civil War, in the midst of the national debate over civil rights.

Fact: The North received more money through public spendinng than they gave through taxes.

Fact: The Union transgressed the Constitution during the so called Civil War.

Fact: The Constitution did not prohibit secession from the U.S.

Fact: The Emancipation Proclomation

Fact: Lincoln said he wanted to save the Union, regardless of whether it affacted Slaves

Fact: Many slaves lamented their alleged freedom that was handed to them after the war.

Fact: Non-slave owners outnumbered slave-owners in the South.

Fact: Multiple important Northern generals owned slaves. Both Lee and Davis freed their slaves.

Fact: I have never displayed ANY flag other than that of the United States of America. I will never, unless I become a citizen of another nation.

[VMAN]

How can you call the Articles of Confederation superior. It basically created a "nation" of small insignificant independent states that could never have supported or defended themselves and would have been hard pressed to come together for that end.

[Bobby Chicken]

VMAN wrote: How can you call the Articles of Confederation superior. It basically created a "nation" of small insignificant independent states that could never have supported or defended themselves and would have been hard pressed to come together for that end.
The Articles of Confederation. What does that have to do with anything? What am I missing? Who is calling them superior?

[Superfly]

Otacon wrote: You don't get it. To them, it doesn't stand for slavery. It's their flag, and it is viewed as an important reminder that they are southerners and that they have a rich heritage. You won't ever understand because you are from the north, where ignorance about the south abounds. Try coming down and living here before you pass judgment on an entire group of people.

I lived there for years, so I feel that I do know what I am talking about.

In fact, I was born and raised there, and my entire family still lives there.

The only time I ever see a Confederate Flag flown is in little tiny towns. They don't do that s**t in larger towns.

In fact, the only area I have seen any flown in quite a long time is this little hick mountain that has a sign on it as you drive up that mountain, that warns black people to "not let the sun set on their ass on that mountain".

[micfranklin]

Superfly wrote: Otacon wrote: You don't get it. To them, it doesn't stand for slavery. It's their flag, and it is viewed as an important reminder that they are southerners and that they have a rich heritage. You won't ever understand because you are from the north, where ignorance about the south abounds. Try coming down and living here before you pass judgment on an entire group of people.

I lived there for years, so I feel that I do know what I am talking about.

In fact, I was born and raised there, and my entire family still lives there.

The only time I ever see a Confederate Flag flown is in little tiny towns. They don't do that s**t in larger towns.

In fact, the only area I have seen any flown in quite a long time is this little hick mountain that has a sign on it as you drive up that mountain, that warns black people to "not let the sun set on their ass on that mountain".

If it helps, I've been down to the South a few times and seen Confederate flags on houses, one of them happened to belong to a black family.

[GCWallace]

as long as their is a "martin Luther King, Jr Blvd" in my town, there will always be a rebel flag at my house.

I tend to favor the less traditional Stars and Bars

[VBach37]

GCWallace wrote: as long as their is a "martin Luther King, Jr Blvd" in my town, there will always be a rebel flag at my house.

I tend to favor the less traditional Stars and Bars



Thank you for proving the point that the confederate flag is more a symbol of racism than a symbol of heritage. Your contribution is appreciated. Bigot.