Political Crossfire Forums

[whynot]

Quote: You should be thankfull that we are more moral than hezbollah, because if we had their ethics, there wouldnt have been a man left standing in lebanon.
until now jews and israel dont arrest to cries : the nazi regime of hitler have exterminate us .
and now when certain people germany and usa... has givt to jews a few arms and money , jews now think that they are the power that no one can arrest and that they are invincible.

i think this people has a collective mental disease named the craziness of the power

[Yoadm]

If you try to bite the dogs ass, you will get bitten yourself. Arabs seem to have little ability to learn from mistakes.

If hezbullah layes down its arms: There would be peace.

If Israel layes down its arms: It will be destroyed.

Thats the difference between us.

[Plato & Socrates]

Yoadm wrote: If you try to bite the dogs ass, you will get bitten yourself. Arabs seem to have little ability to learn from mistakes.

If hezbullah layes down its arms: There would be peace.

If Israel layes down its arms: It will be destroyed.

Thats the difference between us.

BullSh*t; Hezbollah kidnapped 2 of your soldiers and you decimated the whole, and I mean whole of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure. So when you bleet your pathetic mantra of "If hezbullah layes down its arms: There would be peace. If Israel layes down its arms: It will be destroyed. Thats the difference between us." That is ****.
You went after the whole of Lebanon not just Hezbollah. That says it all about Israel. Israel being the coward she is would only engage Lebanon because she knew there would be no real resistance back.

If any Arab country or combined, had the ability to hit you back, for ever 10 deaths you caused, they could hit you back with between 6-7. Israel would'nt engage in war.
Its only because you know in there present state with U.S aid and weapons. You can hit them with a score on average of 10 to 1. Kitty Cats like Israel will take that everyday. That is the nature of Israel, your a bunch of chicken sh*t cowards. Peace, you don't know the meaning of the word. But do I blame Israel for being so aggressive as she is? No not really, I blame the Arab governments for not getting the acts together, because when they do and they will one day. Your whole attitude will change.

[Yoadm]

Still unable to answer my points plato? Well, you tried once but gave up.


I would expect far more from someone with such a strong one-sided stantpoint on the subject to have a better ability to rationalize his position :)

[whynot]

Quote: If hezbullah layes down its arms: There would be peace.


hezbullah will get a peace like the one that the palestinians get after signed a peace with israel

als i have said before this people has a mental dissease they want really to prouve something to them self i dont knew what

but what i knew is that israel search their end really , then they have to continue provocate 1.5 milliards muslims then they will not have the time to use any mirkava or f16

[Yoadm]

[quote="whynot"] Quote: If hezbullah layes down its arms: There would be peace.


hezbullah will get a peace like the one that the palestinians get after signed a peace with israel


Israel offered the palestiniens a peace deal, not only have they rejected it, but they failed to even implement a counter-offer.
Learn your own history.

[Plato & Socrates]

Yoadm wrote: Still unable to answer my points plato? Well, you tried once but gave up.

This thread is about Israeli reservists, which you created. If you want to argue about the "rights or wrongs" of the war, create another thread instead of trying to evade an argument you simply cant handle.

I would expect far more from someone with such a strong one-sided stantpoint on the subject to have a better ability to rationalize his position :)

What points? You points are utter crap. continuing to debate those points with you, will end up with us going around in circles. experience with you has taught me not to bother. Plus you silly man this is not my thread but another. Wrong yet again. Why do I even bother with you? courtesy perhaps :roll:

[Yoadm]

I posted military facts about the conflict, which did not fit your world view.

The only time you attempted to adress my points, your answers were half-hearted, confused, and showed a complete lack of knowledge about military tactics or what happened on the field.

Since you could not adress my points, you attempted to narrow it down by claiming Israel used cluster bombes extensively, but the link you posted disputed your own claim!

But its ok, as long as you escaped with your dignity intact :lol:

[whynot]

Quote:
Israel offered the palestiniens a peace deal, not only have they rejected it, but they failed to even implement a counter-offer.
Learn your own history

israel has to offer nothing ;because they are a UN resoulution about conflicts and the partage of palestine between palestinians and jews

and you should be thankful that palestinians has accepted to partage their own countries with a criminal raciste regime

[Plato & Socrates]

Yoadm wrote: The only time you attempted to adress my points, your answers were half-hearted, confused, and showed a complete lack of knowledge about military tactics or what happened on the field.

But its ok, as long as you escaped with your dignity intact :lol:

O.K YOADS all of your reply was as per usual opinion. There was not one source to corroborate any of you claims. Conjecture and hearsay isnt fact. I post a link from the reputable channel 4 news. Where one of your leading Colonels said on air to the camera "that much of the reservist who came under his command, was in no condition to fight Hezbollah. It was'nt because they was scared or that he did'nt want to send them in. but because he would have been going to lots of funerals.". You then decided to give me waffle and figures and opinion and conjecture backed up with zilch.

However you want to put it. That Colonel basically implied the reserve core was'nt up to it. This is a FACT!
The fact that you don't like it and spin it some other way, invariably with opinion, with no sources and you expect me to debate with you and reply to that? as I said before why bother?

Watch the film again and listen to that man. Its not my opinion but his. This man has vast military experience, vastly greater than yours. It is from his and many other views, I am making my claim that the reservists were Mickey mouse. The Colonel never used the word Micky mouse, but mine. In his claim that if they engaged Hizbollah in the state they arrived, that he would be going to lots of funerals. I take that as a admission that the reservist soldiers he had were not up to the job.

Now in the U.K at least, when people turn up to do any form of job and they are not able to carry it out, they get given names. IE; Micky mouse, Cowboys, Jokers, Blagger. You trying to defend that this is not the case, well that is just typical you. My claim from the very beginning was this. Many reservists turned up in such state, that if the I.D.F military men was to send them into battle many of them would have died because they were not up to scratch. Your reply was just garbage. More Yoadm opinion based on nothing. Source me your counter view, then I might reply.

[Yoadm]

O.K YOADS all of your reply was as per usual opinion. There was not one source to corroborate any of you claims.

You dont need a source for the following:

- S.lebanon is mountanouse/forrested, best suited for guerilla warfare.
- IDF operated only 3 brigades in lebanon, up to 6,600 soldiers until the last 48 hours, every news channel reported it.
- Hezbullah had a vast and extensive bunker network - fact.
- Hezbullah limited the battles mostly to urban warfare.
- The IDF refrained from flattening villeges it encountered defence from, and used infantry house to house.
- most of IDF casualties resulted from ATGM fire, and not deaths from fire-fights, in which it was dominant.

These are undisputed facts, which prohibited the IDF from using its full potential.

I would like to add, that I did not dispute the source you gave, that the IDF reserves were indeed under-trained and equipped by our standards, but that is a far cry from claiming they are total crap.

You know as well as I, that hezbullah had alot of factors working for it, and the picture is more complex than you would like to portray it.

[Tepic]

whynot wrote: and you should be thankful that palestinians has accepted to partage their own countries with a criminal raciste regime
*does an Ahmadinejad*

"The fascist Saudi and Islamist regimes ... occupying Arabia and Persia ... will vanish from the pages of time."

(tautologically true given current understanding of the second law of thermodynamics...)

[Plato & Socrates]

Tepic wrote: whynot wrote: and you should be thankful that palestinians has accepted to partage their own countries with a criminal raciste regime
*does an Ahmadinejad*

"The fascist Saudi and Islamist regimes ... occupying Arabia and Persia ... will vanish from the pages of time."

(tautologically true given current understanding of the second law of thermodynamics...)

:lol: a big mushroom cloud indeed.

[brian_in_idaho]

Quote: Yoadm wrote:


Quote: Funny, only 16 tank crewmembers were killed througout the whole war. The Merkava was built to protect the crew, so I consider it an achievement of the first degree, especially because the tanks hit were mostly old outdated models, that still saved the crewmembers 90% of the time .

you have been not good informed ,
16 tank was ecrased on only one day for prouve you can ask the sioniste that returns from the lebannon sud


Sorry, You have not been informed.
30 tanks were hit, 10 were destroyed, during the whole war. The rest were lightly-badly damaged.

Only 16 tank crewmembers were killed, and all except 4 of them from the older mk2-mk3 versions.



Btw, last post I asked you a question: If hezbullah "won", why did it agree to such a humiliating agreement?

I allso predicted you would be unable to answer this question :wink
[/quote]

(sorry, quotes fubared)


yoadm, I'm sorry to hear the of the loss of your tank crewmen. I know some Merkava's had been disabled, but I wasn't sure if any crew were lost, or if Hezbollah weapons could penetrate the armor of one. Any idea if they were frontal/turret hits, or top-down?

The Merkava is an awsome tank, especially for urban fighting. AFAIK it is the only one with a front mounted engine providing extra crew protection, and the only one with an internal compartment for carrying infantry, or providing a way to transport crew from a damaged tank in cover.

[Yoadm]

From what I understood, there were no penetrations from the frontal arc/turret. The rest im not quite sure.

[Nico]

The Merkava is one of the best armoured MTBs out there, so I was a little surprised at how many were destroyed, although the crew survival rate is demonstrated again as being good. The one peice of footage I have seen of one getting hit in south lebanon showed at least 3 occupants escaping. It was a single side penetration.

[theshield]

Nico wrote: The Merkava is one of the best armoured MTBs out there, so I was a little surprised at how many were destroyed, although the crew survival rate is demonstrated again as being good. The one peice of footage I have seen of one getting hit in south lebanon showed at least 3 occupants escaping. It was a single side penetration.

The Merkava is one of the best battle tank in the world sure but in this competition between Russian latest developed anti-tank missiles and Israeli developed tanks some times Israel some time Russia will be on the upper hand (depend on the penetration point).

But... the Russian "victory" will be short lived because of a new Israeli development called "Throphy" (and that is what i meant when i told the capt'n it's all a matter of money)

You can see movie about it here:

http://media2.foxnews.com/040606/040606_fr_tobin_300.swf

and read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TROPHY_Active_Protection_System

By the way these Russian anti-tank missiles were not supplied to Hezbollah directly but through Syria, even though Syria was not supposed to transfer it to any one according to its agreement with the Russian.Israeli officials lately paid a visit to Moscow to present proof that the Syrian (surprise surprise...) gave these missiles to Hezbollah.The Russian of course take no responsibility.I think its about time Israel will start arm the Chechen's what do you say?

[cap'n queasy]

That active armor may be a good solution for these powerful new Russian and Chinese shoulder fired missiles.

But I think perhaps a tactical solution is needed more rather than a technological solution.

For one thing it's tough going using tanks in mountainous terrain. Especially when your artillery cover is hampered.

I think massive bombardment for a few days of bunker busters before they went in would have been quite effective. You need something that will penetrate re-inforced concrete bunkers when you have the enemy hunkered down in such a well-entrenched position to assault. They had a couple of decades to get ready. Some of their tunnels and bunkers were 40 meters below ground. Also better intelligence to identify high value targets and eliminate them was needed.

They just had to hole up until it was over and pop up with their missiles and fire.

So, that's what had to be dealt with somehow.

[Plato & Socrates]

theshield wrote: Nico wrote: The Merkava is one of the best armoured MTBs out there, so I was a little surprised at how many were destroyed, although the crew survival rate is demonstrated again as being good. The one peice of footage I have seen of one getting hit in south lebanon showed at least 3 occupants escaping. It was a single side penetration.

The Merkava is one of the best battle tank in the world sure but in this competition between Russian latest developed anti-tank missiles and Israeli developed tanks some times Israel some time Russia will be on the upper hand (depend on the penetration point).

But... the Russian "victory" will be short lived because of a new Israeli development called "Throphy" (and that is what i meant when i told the capt'n it's all a matter of money)

You can see movie about it here:

http://media2.foxnews.com/040606/040606_fr_tobin_300.swf

and read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TROPHY_Active_Protection_System

By the way these Russian anti-tank missiles were not supplied to Hezbollah directly but through Syria, even though Syria was not supposed to transfer it to any one according to its agreement with the Russian.Israeli officials lately paid a visit to Moscow to present proof that the Syrian (surprise surprise...) gave these missiles to Hezbollah.The Russian of course take no responsibility.I think its about time Israel will start arm the Chechen's what do you say?

It seems like its based on some flak technology, that's why there saying its top secret. Just a guess anyway.
But we all know its easier to destroy than it is to build. So a counter measure will be developed which will make trophy obsolete. Before trophy is obsolete, governments around the globe will spend hundreds of millions of pounds installing this system. Our boys will then go off to some other battle, then it will filter through that the system is'nt has good and protective as first thought. That's because some new design R.P.G, missile will have been made., costing double the money the previous generation did. If it turns out to be a totally new technology, then our defense industry and companies will find out how it works, reverse engineer it and develop a counter measure.

[brian_in_idaho]

The battle for superiority of firepower vs. armor has been going on for litterally millenia, a new armor is designed, a way to defeat it is developed, then new armor is designed to defeat the new threat. Trophy sounds like the Navy's CIWS (close in weapons system/Phalnix) concept developed for armored vehicles. It sounds like a viable defense for RPG/HEAT type rounds, but no defense against kinetic energy rounds. It'll be interesting to see how it fares.

Does the Merkava have conventional steel armor(RHA), or a layered approach, like the Chobham armor on the M1 and British (Challanger? or Chieftan? I can't recall which one is their current one) tanks do? I didn't see any pics of ERA on the Merkava, and given how often it is used around ground troops wouldn't expect it.

Quote: I think massive bombardment for a few days of bunker busters before they went in would have been quite effective. You need something that will penetrate re-inforced concrete bunkers when you have the enemy hunkered down in such a well-entrenched position to assault. They had a couple of decades to get ready. Some of their tunnels and bunkers were 40 meters below ground. Also better intelligence to identify high value targets and eliminate them was needed.

I think you are right, but in addition to a preliminary bombardment you need a good way to have "bunker busting" capability available for the ground troops, or at least very "tight" integrated close air support to put them where they are needed once the ground pounders come under fire.