Political Crossfire Forums

PricklySponge · Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 9473

reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

Slythe · Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1662 Location: US of A

PricklySponge wrote: reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

likewise, I first came here thinking guns are inherently evil. After lurking for a few months I realized that it is not a privlige, it is a right that has to be protected at all costs.

britboy · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 3571 Location: London

airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

There are a lot of people on this forum it appears that wouldn't.

( God that was an inflammatory last sentence! OH and careful now -- this is still not a pro or anti-gun debate ..! )

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

britboy wrote: airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

Not the best analogy, IMHO. There are basic freedoms involved here, and freedom is irrational by nature. No argument is going to convince me to give up basic freedom.

britboy · Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 3571 Location: London

perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

Not the best analogy, IMHO. There are basic freedoms involved here, and freedom is irrational by nature. No argument is going to convince me to give up basic freedom.

I believe if you had never had the ability to own a gun, you would not see it as a basic right that was being denied of you.

People thought the government taking away their slaves was totally unacceptable. Those people had exactly the same 'It's my right to own' feelings. Were they correct, or was it better for the country to outlaw slavery?

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

britboy wrote: airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

There are a lot of people on this forum it appears that wouldn't.

( God that was an inflammatory last sentence! OH and careful now -- this is still not a pro or anti-gun debate ..! )

But the fact is, at least on the issue of gun control, you're just as close minded as us ;)

It also takes a big man to be completely honest with himself, and not live in denial.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

Not the best analogy, IMHO. There are basic freedoms involved here, and freedom is irrational by nature. No argument is going to convince me to give up basic freedom.

I believe if you had never had the ability to own a gun, you would not see it as a basic right that was being denied of you.

People thought the government taking away their slaves was totally unacceptable. Those people had exactly the same 'It's my right to own' feelings. Were they correct, or was it better for the country to outlaw slavery?

A gun is an inanimate object. A slave is a person. There was never an unalienable right to own a person. There is an unalienable right to self defense. Two totally different issues. A gun has no rights to be free. All humans (that have not been imprisoned due to their own actions) have the right to be free.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

britboy wrote: perdidochas wrote: britboy wrote: airo wrote: Am i the only one who sees the irony in some of those who voted for "yes"?

I don't quite understand the irony. Unless you are saying its ironic some of the people seem to defend their viewpoint absolutely resolutely, have actually stated they may be prepared to change at some point in the future.

Personally, I think it's dangerous to completely close yourself off to changing your mind. At one point everyone KNEW the world was flat. At one point everyone KNEW there were witches in the world and if you found one, you burned her.

It takes the bravest man to stand up and say 'actually, I've changed my mind .. that common opinion, the one EVERYONE is screaming at me is absolute fact, the one my own parents taught me, the one I believed my whole life until recently -- I now, with evidence, think it is simply incorrect'. That is a true sign of courage in pursuit of the truth ...

If, just if, you had overwhelming evidence presented to you that your opinions about guns was wrong .. I'd personally like to think I'd be man enough to hold up my hand and say 'fair enough -- you were right .. I was wrong'.

Not the best analogy, IMHO. There are basic freedoms involved here, and freedom is irrational by nature. No argument is going to convince me to give up basic freedom.

I believe if you had never had the ability to own a gun, you would not see it as a basic right that was being denied of you.

People thought the government taking away their slaves was totally unacceptable. Those people had exactly the same 'It's my right to own' feelings. Were they correct, or was it better for the country to outlaw slavery?

And if people never had the ability to express their thoughts freely, they would have no concept of free speech.

Just because you can take a right away, and eradicate all memory of it's existence doesn't mean you're right. Such is the actions of a tyrant, and exactly WHY we have the right to own firearms.

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

I used to be totally liberal when it came to abortion, but then I saw (I think it was the Discovery channel) on a show called "in the womb" and it changed my mind about abortion. but still there is not a dang thing I can do about it, it's not like I am going to picket abortion centers or anything.
I mean I still feel it is a woman's body and her right to choose, but by watching that show it opened my eyes that a fetus only a month or so is alive, is a human being.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11048 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Slythe wrote: PricklySponge wrote: reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

likewise, I first came here thinking guns are inherently evil. After lurking for a few months I realized that it is not a privlige, it is a right that has to be protected at all costs.
w00t! The pro-gun folks converted someone. :-D

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: Slythe wrote: PricklySponge wrote: reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

likewise, I first came here thinking guns are inherently evil. After lurking for a few months I realized that it is not a privlige, it is a right that has to be protected at all costs.
w00t! The pro-gun folks converted someone. :-D

Another victory! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: It's good to see someone come over to the good side.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11048 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Otacon wrote: Wolverine wrote: Slythe wrote: PricklySponge wrote: reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

likewise, I first came here thinking guns are inherently evil. After lurking for a few months I realized that it is not a privlige, it is a right that has to be protected at all costs.
w00t! The pro-gun folks converted someone. :-D

Another victory! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: It's good to see someone come over to the good side.
Whats that in your avatar? :shock: oh my gosh... its a commie

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: Otacon wrote: Wolverine wrote: Slythe wrote: PricklySponge wrote: reading this forum has changed my opinion on gun control

likewise, I first came here thinking guns are inherently evil. After lurking for a few months I realized that it is not a privlige, it is a right that has to be protected at all costs.
w00t! The pro-gun folks converted someone. :-D

Another victory! :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: It's good to see someone come over to the good side.
Whats that in your avatar? :shock: oh my gosh... its a commie

Wow, that was really little... you can only read it through quoting the comment. :lol: Yes, yes, it's a commie. But a cool commie.

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11048 Location: Podunk, Colorado

Very true, one of very few cool commies.

But I have committed a Libertarain sin, even after your telling me they were a bunch of commies, I still bought another CD.

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject:

Wolverine wrote: Very true, one of very few cool commies.

But I have committed a Libertarain sin, even after your telling me they were a bunch of commies, I still bought another CD.

I own both CDs... :ok: Heck, I even own all four Rage Against the Machine records, and Zack de la Rocha (He was lead vocals on Rage before the band split, many fans think it was because of growing tensions between Timmy and Zack) is like a crazy commie. Probaly further to the left than Tom. Timmy and Brad aren't a political as Tom, and Chris isn't inspired that much by politics. New Audioslave album September 5th. w00t!

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

britboy, another good thread. I voted no but I have some qualifications. I think my opinion could be moderated a little but not much. I understand guns very well and I have not heard anything in years that has changed my stance much. But having said that, I understand that people can own their guns and we can still have a decent peaceloving society where guns are not abused as is current practice in the U.S. And I think that even as we speak, that change is taking place. So perhaps it won't make all that much difference what the current gun lovers think because they will die off and their kind will be closer to extinction in a few years. Wishful thinking? Maybe.

As for the gun lovers changing thier opinions, it happens in a big way every day. All it takes is a disasterous experience with guns to do it. Then they become the anti-gun side's very best ambassadors.

And finally, I would just like to say that it's also a difficult question to answer because when you are immersed in a debate you should never budge from your point of view unless you see some significant movement from the opposing side. I see very little to none and I suggest that is because they are so entrenched in their dogmatic position that they will always remain immovable until they do suffer the ultimate motivation which I have suggested.

Sad that they have to be that way because they could easily have their cake and eat it too.

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject:

shrub buster wrote: As for the gun lovers changing thier opinions, it happens in a big way every day. All it takes is a disasterous experience with guns to do it. Then they become the anti-gun side's very best ambassadors.

Having a bad experience with a gun is not a reason to change your opinion. It just shows that you were probaly not properly handling the weapon and you slipped up and possibly injured or even killed someone. My cousin shot himself in the hand while cleaning his gun a couple of years ago and still loves to go shoot and hunt. People who try to blame the gun when these things happen are foolish and don't think clearly.

thintheherd · Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:20 am Post subject:

So. with the visible 2/3rds majority, hows this little experiement working out for ya?

:lol: :lol:

RooK · Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2006 Location: SE Kentucky

shrub buster wrote: As for the gun lovers changing thier opinions, it happens in a big way every day. All it takes is a disasterous experience with guns to do it. Then they become the anti-gun side's very best ambassadors.

If that changes their opinion, then they were not on the pro-gun side to begin with, or were with little thought as to why. If they had thought it out, they (like most of us) would realize that no matter what, the gun wasn't at fault. Someone, somewhere, pulled that trigger and they (or the events that led to it) are to blame. Blaming an inanimate object for the actions of a human being shows they lack the ability to rationalize, and is no doubt linked to personal fears or emotions they can not overcome themselves.