Political Crossfire Forums

[britboy]

Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on gun control?

Or do you feel at this stage of your life you know enough to be able to state your opinion will simply not change? You are pro/anti gun for life.

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote: Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on gun control?

Or do you feel at this stage of your life you know enough to be able to state your opinion will simply not change? You are pro/anti gun for life.

Now, if I were to get a lobotomy or get brain damaged, I might change my mind. However, my views are otherwise pretty much in concrete.

[leftneckredwing]

Your question is ambiguous.

Gun control is not the issue for us, it is the Right that may not be infringed as it is the teeth for all other rights. And we won't volunteer to have our teeth pulled. Without those teeth, you will only be able to digest the pablum that is and will be spoon fed. No teeth, no meat.

Will you change your mind on whether or not your life or rights are worthy of defense and the ability to do so? One cannot give up one without giving up the other.

[britboy]

No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

[leftneckredwing]

britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

[Onevote]

britboy wrote: Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on gun control?

Or do you feel at this stage of your life you know enough to be able to state your opinion will simply not change? You are pro/anti gun for life. I would be happy to trade in my guns on a new laser pistol as soon as they start selling them.

[TNBiologist]

britboy wrote: Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on gun control?

Or do you feel at this stage of your life you know enough to be able to state your opinion will simply not change? You are pro/anti gun for life.

Not changing opinions on this.

[britboy]

leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

Read the original post carefully. Honestly, I promise you, this was not intended to be a pro or anti-gun topic. Believe me or not it's up to you. This was just supposed to be a 'how set in your opinions are you' type thing.

Perhaps the first poll ever where the likes of Lucky Luke could completely reasonably vote for exactly the same thing as OneVote!

[lilwolf]

Not a chance here either. I guess when Hell freezes over I will raise an eye brow. That's not Hell , Nevada either.

Not likely.

[leftneckredwing]

britboy wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

Read the original post carefully. Honestly, I promise you, this was not intended to be a pro or anti-gun topic. Believe me or not it's up to you. This was just supposed to be a 'how set in your opinions are you' type thing.

Perhaps the first poll ever where the likes of Lucky Luke could completely reasonably vote for exactly the same thing as OneVote!

How does one arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the reagrds to rights?

They are inseperable. The reason for our stance is not based on opinion. It is based on what we know to be facts.

Let me put this into perspective.

LNRW wrote:
Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on wheels being round?

[Wolverine]

I don't have a mental disorder fearing inanimate objects, so I voted no.

[britboy]

leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

Read the original post carefully. Honestly, I promise you, this was not intended to be a pro or anti-gun topic. Believe me or not it's up to you. This was just supposed to be a 'how set in your opinions are you' type thing.

Perhaps the first poll ever where the likes of Lucky Luke could completely reasonably vote for exactly the same thing as OneVote!

How does one arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the reagrds to rights?

They are inseperable. The reason for our stance is not based on opinion. It is based on what we know to be facts.

Let me put this into perspective.

LNRW wrote:
Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on wheels being round?

Well I understand your point, you are treating the right to own the gun as having an answer as obvious as 'Do you think the sun will come up tomorrow' or 'Do you think 1+1 =2'??

I disagree. I don't believe the answer to the gun control debate is absolute fact. I believe the fact is simply not known to anyone at this point it is merely researched/guessed at by individuals. How many forums are out there debating 'Are wheels round' ?? How many governments are debating it?

And your sentence 'How does one arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the regards to rights?'. Well 2 major flaws here. Firstly you are presuming if harsh gun control is present this will always result in rights being oppressed. Wrong. I use the UK as example.

Secondly, even if your crazy 'no guns = rights removed ... fact' statement was true, there are lots of people who don't care about most rights anyway. My wife for example doesn't give a crap about voting. She can't be arsed. She thinks 'They're all the same anyway'. If they cancelled the right to vote she would not care 1 jot. She is one person who could 'arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the regards to rights' (and she's the first person I thought of). I reckon less than 50% of a population really give a crap about most of the rights they are afforded.

[leftneckredwing]

britboy wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

Read the original post carefully. Honestly, I promise you, this was not intended to be a pro or anti-gun topic. Believe me or not it's up to you. This was just supposed to be a 'how set in your opinions are you' type thing.

Perhaps the first poll ever where the likes of Lucky Luke could completely reasonably vote for exactly the same thing as OneVote!

How does one arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the reagrds to rights?

They are inseperable. The reason for our stance is not based on opinion. It is based on what we know to be facts.

Let me put this into perspective.

LNRW wrote:
Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on wheels being round?

Well I understand your point, you are treating the right to own the gun as having an answer as obvious as 'Do you think the sun will come up tomorrow' or 'Do you think 1+1 =2'??

I disagree. I don't believe the answer to the gun control debate is absolute fact. I believe the fact is simply not known to anyone at this point it is merely researched/guessed at by individuals. How many forums are out there debating 'Are wheels round' ?? How many governments are debating it?

And your sentence 'How does one arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the regards to rights?'. Well 2 major flaws here. Firstly you are presuming if harsh gun control is present this will always result in rights being oppressed. Wrong. I use the UK as example.

Secondly, even if your crazy 'no guns = rights removed ... fact' statement was true, there are lots of people who don't care about most rights anyway. My wife for example doesn't give a crap about voting. She can't be arsed. She thinks 'They're all the same anyway'. If they cancelled the right to vote she would not care 1 jot. She is one person who could arrive at an opinion that would negate a conviction in the regards to rights' (and she's the first person I thought of). I reckon less than 50% of a population really give a crap about most of the rights they are afforded.

I reckon your estimate on how many people give a crap about rights is generous.

I reckon sheep don't care what they eat as long as they eat.

You use a flaw to justify a flaw?

Quote: Firstly you are presuming if harsh gun control is present this will always result in rights being oppressed. Wrong. I use the UK as example.

I understand you're not allowed to protest within a mile of Parliament.

Harsh gun control is in and of itself a loss of rights. It's like saying a little bit of cancer will save the body or a little bit of poison will enhance the meal.

If you like poison, dig in.

[lilwolf]

Question ought to be: Why would anyone want to change their opinion?

To have this fundamental right is important in our freedoms. We cherish all of them (what we have left anyway). To take away a good right and freedom is insane. I do not see where or why we (legal law abiders) would want to.
To mant nations have succumbed to tyranny and dictatorships at the expense of millions of innocent lives. Not here, Americans that value this right (in spite of those who hate it) will not go down with out a hard and ugly fight. Those that did are sheep for the slaughter. I refer to these weak minded folks with illusions as "SHEEPEL"
To lay down and die is one thing , but to just surrender because of an illusionary utopia where the silly question is asked, "what did I do to deserve this?" is insane.

[Winchester]

For those of you enlightened pro gun control people who do not truely understand the "American Gun Culture" read this book. You might learn something about our way of thinking, it might change your minds or at worst at least allow you to better understand us and why we are unlikely to ever, ever change our minds.

If nothing else it is a entertaining book.

Unintended Consequences, by John Ross

I added the first two reviews from Amazon's page in case you didn't want to click the link.

Quote: 132 of 139 people found the following review helpful:
A life-changing book!!, February 6, 2003
Reviewer: Ronald J. Brace "Doc Ron" (MN. USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
We all remember those events in our life that make memories so sweet: Summers with your parents, riding bikes with friends, your first kiss, first lover, finishing high school and then college. This book was a milestone in my life.

Being raised a democrat and generally considering my self an independent, I never really gave much thought to the gun rights and gun control movements. Then, 4 years ago, I picked up a second edition copy of John Ross' masterfully written novel and it changed my life. (I now own a signed first edition as well)

He is entertaining and lively in describing the firearm culture and development in the early part of the last century. The life of a young man growing up in this culture and becoming a driving force in the novel. The story is a page turner, and one breezes through this tome in no time. A dramatic chain of events in the lead character's life leads to a near revolution in the country. The ending that has you cheering as the good guys win!

Since reading this novel, I have read tens of thousands of pages of political thought, historical record and legal documents and have come to understand just where continued gun control is taking us...it is a place I do not wish to go.

In the last four years, I have become a champion for the second amendment rights community, a holder of a federal firearms license , a collector with over 60 firearms, a hobby gunsmith and a lobbyist for the firearms community. All this from a person who voted for Clinton his first term!

Get John Ross' book, it will open your eyes.

Quote: 109 of 116 people found the following review helpful:
It Changed My Thinking, April 26, 2003
Reviewer: Beau Thurnauer "Beau" (Coventry, CT USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I'm a pretty conservative guy. I follow rules because I find it comfortable to do so. I stop at stop lights and do a lot of things I would rather not do as well as not doing things I would like to do because I find this an orderly and secure way to live.

I do recognize that there are many stupid poorly conceived laws and rules but I still comply. I have never thought about starting a revolution because the trivial moronic little rules and regulations that we are requested to comply with are unreasonable in a free society. But that is the topic of this book.

Few books in my life have changed my thinking over the long term. Unintended Consequences did this. This book is about the gun culture. How it began and where it is today. I never never never thought about how not only many of the Federal firearms regulations are but in a more global sense how many of our regulations are ridiculous.

This may sound like a vague description of a 800+ page book. But this book is so global. It talks specifically about Henry Bowman who grows up shooting guns as a hobby like many others collect stamps or ride motorcycles. Yet he explains very slowly and methodically how his life experiences with his hobby are hampered unreasonably by Federal regulations. You do not have to be a gun lover or hater to appreciate this book. You only have to have a hobby or passion; any hobby or passion. You will see how our Constitution and Bill of Rights have been beaten and changed, how we are losing our individual rights and how dangerous the repurcussions.

Please read this book for the message, it will change you.

[airo]

I don't like you poll options, because i don't consider myself a close minded person.

However, i don't see firearm ownership as a real issue, per say. Firearms allow people to fight oppression in all shapes and forms, whether it's a mugger who wishes to take your property, or a government that wishes to take your freedom. Removing firearms takes a population's ability to stand up to tyranny and oppression away, and is in fact a tyrannical act in and of itself. It's one group of people forcing their moralistic views on another group of people for really no other reason other than they can.

In order for me to change my opinions on gun ownership, i'd have to change my entire life philosophy. I'd have to be convinced that people don't have a right to stand up against those who wish them to be victims, i'd have to convinced that people don't deserve the right to defend themselves, and i'd have to be convinced that i am one-hundred percent wrong in all my life's beliefs, convictions, and goals (Which also involve roles where i will be armed. For those of you who don't know, i'm planning a stint in the military after college, joining a police force when i get back, and eventually plan to go federal.)

Like i said, i'm not closed minded, but i honestly don't think anyone can prove me so wrong as to rock every foundation on which i believe something.

[Otacon]

In theory, yes, I could change my opinion, but I won't.

[Onevote]

britboy wrote: leftneckredwing wrote: britboy wrote: No leftneck -- this poll is nothing to do with what your opinions are, when concerned with gun control.

This poll is whether you can ever seen yourself under any circumstances changing your mind.

I'm interested to see how 'dug-in' people are with regards to their opinions -- not which opinions are right or wrong -- that's being discussed on ... er .. every single other thread!

I know, the gun control folks are always trying to reduce the real issue to tiny specifics and minutiae.

And we're not going to let you.

Rights are not left to whim of opinions. If you want to know opinions, you cannot divorce it from the basis for those opinions, in this case values.

Read the original post carefully. Honestly, I promise you, this was not intended to be a pro or anti-gun topic. Believe me or not it's up to you. This was just supposed to be a 'how set in your opinions are you' type thing.

Perhaps the first poll ever where the likes of Lucky Luke could completely reasonably vote for exactly the same thing as OneVote! The reason my view can't be changed is that I don't believe guns have much to do with crime and therefore are the wrong target of those who would ban then in the name of reduced crime. When in fact the issue is now and has always been about those who commit crime, with or without a gun. it seems to me that many excuses are made as to why the poor guy might have wanted to rob, kill, rape another person, almost as if there is a justifiable "reason" for this behavior. There is no justifiable reason to rob, rape or kill someone( unless we are talking self defense for the latter). It is the decision made by the perpetrator of the crime to put both himself and the other party in a situation they did not ask for, leaving responsibility for the outcome solely on him. If we were to quit coddling these knuckleheads and give their butts real prison terms in "REAL" prisons. you might actually see crime go down.

[mathurin]

britboy wrote: Is there anything, anyone could say, invent, prove, point out, argue, demonstrate, do, that would make you change you opinion radically on gun control?

Or do you feel at this stage of your life you know enough to be able to state your opinion will simply not change? You are pro/anti gun for life.

i could absolutly change my mind

when i become emperor i would totally agree with you, guns are not something for common folks to have, only those in the military and police, who have sworn loyalty to me, should be allowed access to weapons, otherwise my rule might be overthrown
ordinary people, or, as i like to call them, peons, cannot possibly be trusted with the arms of war, they do not possess enough intelligence to operate such items in a sane way, which is why we must have educated gentlemen in control of our armies and our streets, common ownership of arms would cause anarchy, with rivers running red with blood

do you recognize any of this thinking?

[Thrilla]

my stance on gun control can be described as concrete..... but why understate? :wink: