Political Crossfire Forums

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: TheTME wrote: John wrote: Quote: What about the deluge? everyone but Noah and his family are killed. Whatever the reason, it was still not an act of compassion.

Mankind's genetic code seems to have been completely corrupted by interbreeding with fallen Angels. It was an attempt by "Satan" to stop the Messiah from being born as was prophesied....if mankind's bloodline was corrupted with Angelic DNA...then the plan of the Messiah redeeming mankind would be thwarted; basically mean all of mankind would go to Hell (Besides the fact that the Nephilim were completely twisted and evil)....so YES...the deluge was an act of compassion.

Oh wow, the christian mythology really gets on my nerves. How could you even start believe this stuff?

Read Genesis 6 in the Hebrew Old Testament.
There are different explanations for Chapter 6..

UFOs and angelic DNA is the realm of Chuck Missler, not Christian exegesis.. :wink:

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2436 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: or..........G-d was just ending the last ice age, in which case the flood WAS an act of compassion.......ice is cold. :lol: True. Although, if you read the story (any version) the conditions are that of PRE-ice age era. The land was experiencing an extreme drought and extreme heat, and everyone prayed for rain (funny that they were all killed by the very thing they prayed for). So most likely the last great ice age probably came right after this. This would push the date of the flood to somewhere around 12000 B.C.

John:
Quote: It was an attempt by "Satan" to stop the Messiah from being born as was prophesied....if mankind's bloodline was corrupted with Angelic DNA...then the plan of the Messiah redeeming mankind would be thwarted; basically mean all of mankind would go to Hell (Besides the fact that the Nephilim were completely twisted and evil)
Is there anything that suggests this? Wouldn't God have foreseen this coming and not condemned us both (human and "others") to roam the same planet if compassion was his main attribute? I'll finish this thought later... Ok sorry I had to go pick up a corpse :lol: ANYWAY, like I was saying, would God have orchestrated everything differently if compassion were his main attribute? To me it seems likely (I realize that does not make me correct). Perhaps there is more to it than we realize. Maybe it was a warning, maybe it was foreshadowing, or maybe God's orders were carried out by servants who argued amongst themselves until their presence was removed from the earth. I don't really see them as evil based on the stories. They seem to be like people, which is to say a mixture of good and evil to different degrees with varying levels of selfishness. Even the same being that inspired and helped build the tower of babel, also gave humanity knowledge of masonry. All I mean is that there were good aspects and bad to both. The figure known as ENLIL whose persona and actions most likely later become known as Michael, was the chief of the earthly gods. He was the direct messenger of his father in the heavens (Anu), yet it was his decision to let everyone die in the deluge. It was his older brother ENKI (who is later regarded as Satan in Judaism) who defied the will of the other earthly gods and saved humanity. In this version it is clear why at one point God says he will kill everyone, then at the next he says he will spare humanity and never flood the earth again...it was not God's direct will being expressed, but that of his earthly emissaries. Do you not even think it is possible that before the flood God was not as personally involved as in the days of the prophets and that earthly messengers carried out his will?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

psholtz wrote: John wrote: TheTME wrote: John wrote: Quote: What about the deluge? everyone but Noah and his family are killed. Whatever the reason, it was still not an act of compassion.

Mankind's genetic code seems to have been completely corrupted by interbreeding with fallen Angels. It was an attempt by "Satan" to stop the Messiah from being born as was prophesied....if mankind's bloodline was corrupted with Angelic DNA...then the plan of the Messiah redeeming mankind would be thwarted; basically mean all of mankind would go to Hell (Besides the fact that the Nephilim were completely twisted and evil)....so YES...the deluge was an act of compassion.

Oh wow, the christian mythology really gets on my nerves. How could you even start believe this stuff?

Read Genesis 6 in the Hebrew Old Testament.
There are different explanations for Chapter 6..

UFOs and angelic DNA is the realm of Chuck Missler, not Christian exegesis.. :wink:

Well psholtz, I had a personal revelation about this very subject before I had even heard the name Missler. So don't go off telling me I'm not a Christian, because if there is one thing that I do know....it's what I am. What I saw and how it was revealed to me is one of the reasons why I believe in the way that I do.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

Quote: Ok sorry I had to go pick up a corpse Laughing ANYWAY, like I was saying, would God have orchestrated everything differently if compassion were his main attribute? To me it seems likely (I realize that does not make me correct). Perhaps there is more to it than we realize. Maybe it was a warning, maybe it was foreshadowing, or maybe God's orders were carried out by servants who argued amongst themselves until their presence was removed from the earth. I don't really see them as evil based on the stories. They seem to be like people, which is to say a mixture of good and evil to different degrees with varying levels of selfishness. Even the same being that inspired and helped build the tower of babel, also gave humanity knowledge of masonry. All I mean is that there were good aspects and bad to both. The figure known as ENLIL whose persona and actions most likely later become known as Michael, was the chief of the earthly gods. He was the direct messenger of his father in the heavens (Anu), yet it was his decision to let everyone die in the deluge. It was his older brother ENKI (who is later regarded as Satan in Judaism) who defied the will of the other earthly gods and saved humanity. In this version it is clear why at one point God says he will kill everyone, then at the next he says he will spare humanity and never flood the earth again...it was not God's direct will being expressed, but that of his earthly emissaries. Do you not even think it is possible that before the flood God was not as personally involved as in the days of the prophets and that earthly messengers carried out his will?

No...I don't think that's possible.

I think a better way of looking at it is like a rabid dog. Once a dog is rabid..the compassionate thing to do is to put it down...no matter how much you love the dog, it is the merciful thing to do. I can see how you might not what to think of these people and these hybrid offspring as being like rabid dogs...but I personally believe that is the case.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: Well psholtz, I had a personal revelation about this very subject before I had even heard the name Missler. So don't go off telling me I'm not a Christian, because if there is one thing that I do know....it's what I am. What I saw and how it was revealed to me is one of the reasons why I believe in the way that I do.
Hmmm.... :think:

So - you received a revelation, huh?

Well then - just what makes you so sure this revelation came from God? After all - it could have actually been a deception perpetrated upon you by Satan himself.

Just because someone says they've had a revelation, doesn't mean they have you know. Just because someone claims to have seen something, doesn't mean they have you know. They could be lying, or they could be deluded, or they could have deceived.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

MJB wrote: John wrote: Well psholtz, I had a personal revelation about this very subject before I had even heard the name Missler. So don't go off telling me I'm not a Christian, because if there is one thing that I do know....it's what I am. What I saw and how it was revealed to me is one of the reasons why I believe in the way that I do.
Hmmm.... :think:

So - you received a revelation, huh?

Well then - just what makes you so sure this revelation came from God? After all - it could have actually been a deception perpetrated upon you by Satan himself.

Just because someone says they've had a revelation, doesn't mean they have you know. Just because someone claims to have seen something, doesn't mean they have you know. They could be lying, or they could be deluded, or they could have deceived.

Well, I was highly interested in the occult. This interest died and was shifted towards the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ after this "revelation" happened. Instead of rejecting the Trinity and who Jesus is, I shortly grew to understand it in my spirit and feel the peace of knowing my Salvation was paid for on the cross by my Lord Jesus Christ, who is God and came in the flesh to atone for the sins of the world. This revelation had nothing to do with accepting a new or improved Gospel.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: MJB wrote: John wrote: Well psholtz, I had a personal revelation about this very subject before I had even heard the name Missler. So don't go off telling me I'm not a Christian, because if there is one thing that I do know....it's what I am. What I saw and how it was revealed to me is one of the reasons why I believe in the way that I do.
Hmmm.... :think:

So - you received a revelation, huh?

Well then - just what makes you so sure this revelation came from God? After all - it could have actually been a deception perpetrated upon you by Satan himself.

Just because someone says they've had a revelation, doesn't mean they have you know. Just because someone claims to have seen something, doesn't mean they have you know. They could be lying, or they could be deluded, or they could have deceived.

Well, I was highly interested in the occult. This interest died and was shifted towards the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ after this "revelation" happened. Instead of rejecting the Trinity and who Jesus is, I shortly grew to understand it in my spirit and feel the peace of knowing my Salvation was paid for on the cross by my Lord Jesus Christ, who is God and came in the flesh to atone for the sins of the world.

Very interesting, especially since we had an experience with someone who told this very same story, and his revelation was definitely not from God.

John wrote: This revelation had nothing to do with accepting a new or improved Gospel.

Neither did the prophet Joseph's.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

Quote: Neither did the prophet Joseph's.

Come on man. It's tiring already.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: Quote: Neither did the prophet Joseph's.

Come on man. It's tiring already.

Come now.

You have freely criticized Joseph Smith's claims of having received revelation from God. So now, when I question your own claims of revelation from God, you insist yours, "had nothing to do with accepting a new or improved Gospel," to deliberately imply Joseph's were such, in another attempt to impugn his experience as not being from God, and add validity to your own.

Yet - I'm not supposed to refute it.

Well - go figure.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

MJB wrote: John wrote: Quote: Neither did the prophet Joseph's.

Come on man. It's tiring already.

Come now.

You have freely criticized Joseph Smith's claims of having received revelation from God. So now, when I question your own claims of revelation from God, you insist yours, "had nothing to do with accepting a new or improved Gospel," to deliberately imply Joseph's were such, in another attempt to impugn his experience as not being from God, and add validity to your own.

Yet - I'm not supposed to refute it.

Well - go figure.

Joseph Smith preached a different Gospel...it's the whole reason why you guys have a slew of different books.

Look man, if you guys preached the same Gospel as main stream Christianity does we wouldn't have a problem with you at all, in fact I would be happy for you. Protestants accept Catholics as Christians, as they do us. Neither claims that the other preaches a different Gospel; they just have minor disagreement on style. Trust me, someone who believes and proclaims the Gospel is a breath of fresh air to me in a world that is so rejecting and turned aside from the truth.

So just stop it with the BS. Claim that you guys have the truth and main stream Christianity is deceived if you like...but don't try and pass of Mormonism as preaching the same Gospel as main stream Christianity.

Anyways...you called me out...I didn't do anything but answer the question. You seem reving to pick another fight about Mormons in a thread that has nothing to do with the subject. And you have the nerve to accuse others (LGR) of not acting like "Christians" when you do the same thing.

And if you want to know the truth..I don't like you or your kind. And the reason why is not because you believe diiferently than me. That's between you and God. It's because I believe that you guys aggressivly set out to teach a false message that sends people to Hell. Mormons hurt people (actually they kill people spiritually). They have a system that makes themself seem like sheep, but you guys are sheep in wolves clothing.

eynon · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:18 am Post subject:

wormwood wrote: Quote: or..........G-d was just ending the last ice age, in which case the flood WAS an act of compassion.......ice is cold. :lol: True. Although, if you read the story (any version) the conditions are that of PRE-ice age era. The land was experiencing an extreme drought and extreme heat, and everyone prayed for rain (funny that they were all killed by the very thing they prayed for). So most likely the last great ice age probably came right after this. This would push the date of the flood to somewhere around 12000 B.C.

makes sense to me....I have no doubt an oral tradition could last 14,000 years :)

especially an oral tradition about something as big as an ice-age ending......

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

TheTME wrote: John wrote: TheTME wrote: John wrote: Quote: What about the deluge? everyone but Noah and his family are killed. Whatever the reason, it was still not an act of compassion.

Mankind's genetic code seems to have been completely corrupted by interbreeding with fallen Angels. It was an attempt by "Satan" to stop the Messiah from being born as was prophesied....if mankind's bloodline was corrupted with Angelic DNA...then the plan of the Messiah redeeming mankind would be thwarted; basically mean all of mankind would go to Hell (Besides the fact that the Nephilim were completely twisted and evil)....so YES...the deluge was an act of compassion.

Oh wow, the christian mythology really gets on my nerves. How could you even start believe this stuff?

Read Genesis 6 in the Hebrew Old Testament.

I have, I guess you read it as the son of god is a title shared with angels? Also, they aren't condemed, it says the product were men that were famous, nothing of some evil cross bed mutant tainting humans.

How do you explain these scripture passages then?
From a passage in the Bible labeled "The Warnings of History to the Ungodly"
Quote: Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Quote: 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

I hope that clears up any understanding anyone has about the direct meaning of Genesis chapter 6.

The so-called Sethite hypothesis is a 5th century innovation, thought up by Julius Africanus, I believe, to defend against attacks from the pagan philosophers Celsus and Julian the apostate. Augustine accepted this doctrinal change for political expedience, although but his mentor Origen did not accept it. Eventually it became the standard doctrine.

From a reading of these two passages I provided it is crystal clear that the "Sethite hypothesis" is unfounded and that Origen and the original doctrine were totally correct.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: Joseph Smith preached a different Gospel...it's the whole reason why you guys have a slew of different books.

Look man, if you guys preached the same Gospel as main stream Christianity does we wouldn't have a problem with you at all, in fact I would be happy for you. Protestants accept Catholics as Christians, as they do us. Neither claims that the other preaches a different Gospel; they just have minor disagreement on style. Trust me, someone who believes and proclaims the Gospel is a breath of fresh air to me in a world that is so rejecting and turned aside from the truth.

So just stop it with the BS. Claim that you guys have the truth and main stream Christianity is deceived if you like...but don't try and pass of Mormonism as preaching the same Gospel as main stream Christianity.

Anyways...you called me out...I didn't do anything but answer the question. You seem reving to pick another fight about Mormons in a thread that has nothing to do with the subject. And you have the nerve to accuse others (LGR) of not acting like "Christians" when you do the same thing.

First of all, I would remind you that you have deliberately made anti-Mormon remarks in unrelated threads, so it's a tad hypocritical to accuse me of, "revving to pick another fight about Mormons in a thread that has nothing to do with the subject."

I would also remind you (again) that it was you who made claim of receiving revelation from God, in this very thread. Whatever you wish to believe matters not to me, but you'll have to excuse me for not being particularly impressed, in light of the contempt you've continually shown toward Joseph Smith receiving revelation from God.

As to your criticism that I have nerve to accuse others of not acting like Christians, when I do the same thing? Well, what I don't do is jump on others, saying they're not Christians, calling them a cult, or saying their beliefs are satanic, or evil, because they believe differently, and I don't make a mockery of what they hold sacred. If I question someone's claim of Christian devotion (as with LGR) it is based entirely on how they treat others, not on whatever version of Christianity they may subscribe to.

Finally - regarding the gospel itself - we have never claimed to preach the same gospel as mainstream Christianity (as if that were actually one gospel). We claim to preach the same gospel that Jesus Christ preached. The same gospel that his apostles preached. The same gospel that slipped from the world, after the apostles were murdered, and precepts of men crept in, with ordinances and doctrines being changed, and important truths obscured and lost, resulting in confusion, with a multitude of churches begun by men, going off in their own ways, with their different and contradictory interpretations and teachings. No - we don't preach those, because we espouse the gospel Jesus Christ, himself, preached, not the countless variations that have developed within your, so called, "mainstream Christianity."

The scriptures tell us that God is not a God of confusion, and that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism - not many. Reason alone should tell the honest in heart that there cannot be multiple truths, but one truth only.

Even so - we do not accuse other Christians of not being Christian, just because they choose a different way, nor do we point the finger of condemnation at non-Christians, because they have a different faith.

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (11th Article of Faith)

John wrote: And if you want to know the truth..I don't like you or your kind. And the reason why is not because you believe diiferently than me. That's between you and God. It's because I believe that you guys aggressivly set out to teach a false message that sends people to Hell. Mormons hurt people (actually they kill people spiritually). They have a system that makes themself seem like sheep, but you guys are sheep in wolves clothing.

Nice touch.

But our kind are Christians, and nothing you think, or fear, changes that.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

Quote: Finally - regarding the gospel itself - we have never claimed to preach the same gospel as mainstream Christianity (as if that were actually one gospel). We claim to preach the same gospel that Jesus Christ preached. The same gospel that his apostles preached. The same gospel that slipped from the world, after the apostles were murdered, and precepts of men crept in, with ordinances and doctrines being changed, and important truths obscured and lost, resulting in confusion, with a multitude of churches begun by men, going off in their own ways, with their different and contradictory interpretations and teachings. No - we don't preach those, because we espouse the gospel Jesus Christ, himself, preached, not the countless variations that have developed within your, so called, "mainstream Christianity."

So there we have it. You guys teach that the Gospel that mainstream Christianity teaches isn't the true Gospel because it "slipped from the world", until Mr. Smith came along and have the world the "real Gospel" again.

You can call that what you will, but where I come from we call that a "different" Gospel. Just like scripture warns us against.

You seem to be confused. The variations that appear in different denominations revolve around style of worship...NOT a different Gospel. You see the Gospel isn't about how you worship, or how you are baptized, or any other type of religiosity that doesn't matter either way. The Gospel isn't about having to complete certain types of works...it's the opposite in fact. Christians are saved through the Grace of God. Period. Not the Grace of God, plus being a member of the Mormon Church, plus being baptized by a Mormon elder, plus all the additional requirements of salvation that Mormons claim.

Believing that Christ's atonement provides resurrection for all men and opens the door so men can earn their individual salvation is NOT the Gospel.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

John wrote: Quote: Finally - regarding the gospel itself - we have never claimed to preach the same gospel as mainstream Christianity (as if that were actually one gospel). We claim to preach the same gospel that Jesus Christ preached. The same gospel that his apostles preached. The same gospel that slipped from the world, after the apostles were murdered, and precepts of men crept in, with ordinances and doctrines being changed, and important truths obscured and lost, resulting in confusion, with a multitude of churches begun by men, going off in their own ways, with their different and contradictory interpretations and teachings. No - we don't preach those, because we espouse the gospel Jesus Christ, himself, preached, not the countless variations that have developed within your, so called, "mainstream Christianity."

So there we have it. You guys teach that the Gospel that mainstream Christianity teaches isn't the true Gospel because it "slipped from the world", until Mr. Smith came along and have the world the "real Gospel" again.

You can call that what you will, but where I come from we call that a "different" Gospel. Just like scripture warns us against.

You seem to be confused. The variations that appear in different denominations revolve around style of worship...NOT a different Gospel. You see the Gospel isn't about how you worship, or how you are baptized, or any other type of religiosity that doesn't matter either way. The Gospel isn't about having to complete certain types of works...it's the opposite in fact. Christians are saved through the Grace of God. Period. Not the Grace of God, plus being a member of the Mormon Church, plus being baptized by a Mormon elder, plus all the additional requirements of salvation that Mormons claim.

Believing that Christ's atonement provides resurrection for all men and opens the door so men can earn their individual salvation is NOT the Gospel.

Man can't earn his own salvation. It's impossible. That's why he needed a Savior. But of course - you're free to continue to make false claims about what we believe, and you can do it until the cows come home if you wish, but you can't change the truth, and that is the beauty of it.

Cute addition though. But I'm sure it is difficult to contain your loathing of all things "Mormon" enough to keep more of it from oozing out.

Oh - and confused? I'm not the least confused, thank you. This is the work of Jesus Christ, not a concoction of man, but just as I am free to embrace the restored gospel, you are free to reject it.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

Quote: Cute addition though. But I'm sure it is difficult to contain your loathing of all things "Mormon" enough to keep more of it from oozing out.

You're prolly right. I'm sick and tired of being politically correct. And I'm not going to pretend to like what you stand for. You've been deceived to believe a false Gospel that is just wrong enough to do the worse kind of damage. And the worse part is Mormon's package it to look like the Truth. Does it make me angry? You bet......how could I not become angry thinking about all the people hurt by the clever deception that Satan introduced to the world known as "Mormonism". I do feel sorry for you, because I believe that you are sincere in your beliefs and that it isn't you who is to blame or even Joseph Smith for that matter. But that doesn't do anything for the people who are hurt by this lie. I truly hope that the Holy Spirit is trying to call you and and that you will accept the truth and be saved. Maybe my reaction is wrong...I can't tell...I'm just being honest.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22862

Quote: Man can't earn his own salvation. It's impossible. That's why he needed a Savior. But of course - you're free to continue to make false claims about what we believe, and you can do it until the cows come home if you wish, but you can't change the truth, and that is the beauty of it.

Do Mormon's not believe that Christ opened the door for mankind to be saved; that without Christ mankind was lost...but each individual is held accountable to do his or her part and these regulations that he or she must live by are what is pasted on to people by the Church of Latter Day Saints?

Is there Salvation outside of the Church of Latter Day Saints?