Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

TheTME wrote: John wrote: David Kelly wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: David Kelly wrote: psholtz wrote: wannabe wrote: But I digress.....no, no he wasn't....everything he preached had a basis in the OT. Christianity is a Jewish cult, not a Hindu one :wink:
Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt.

Judaism is a cult born in Babylon circa 500 BC. The Jews themselves did not author the OT, nor have much of anything to do w/ its composition (except for the very last books, chronologically speaking), nor does Judaism have much to do w/ Christianity. If anything, Christianity is a very strong counterpoint to Judaism, opposing it in almost every way.

Correct. They held to the same that the Babylonians did, only the rejected all deities but the Goddess of life and fertility. In Canaan a 2nd cult grew out of the local religion rejecting all deities but the God of war. At some point the 2 merged and formed the Jewish Faith merging there 2 deities hence the fact that "God" is an It as it is unisex.

:lol: That's not factual.

It is. You just need to look outside the bible to find the facts.
I have 2 good points supporting me. God never said He was the only one, all he said was he was greedy and you can find that in the Bible.

Not so.

Isaiah 45
21 "Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 43

10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 "I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me.
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.
13 "Even from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?"

Elohim much? Try looking around older text such as the torah, the first scripture.

Why don't you search the book of Job.

Elohim = Trinity = ONE GOD. :-D

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2555 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: There is God (who created everthing)...and then there are things and beings mistaken and treated like God. This world serves Satan more than God....so in effect Satan is the "god" of this world...but that doesn't mean Satan is God or even a god in reality. He is a created being. John are you gnostic now? :lol: This statement just seems really similar to the gnostic view, except you don't mistakenly treat these beings as gods. Much like the gnostic view you agree that evil appears to be the dominant force, but the true God is a less active/more passive good that must be sought. Interesting...

Also, do you consider "Satan" to be one actual entity, an archetype for a group of entities, a family line of certain entities, or a general force of nature (like positive and negative charge)?

Quote: Why don't you search the book of Job.

Elohim = Trinity = ONE GOD.

Well it seems that when Job was written, there was only one word for God, which was the plural Elohim. Everywhere that Jehovah appears, should read as Elohim. Also, there is nothing indicating a trinity, AND the holy spirit is not a person. :wink:

Quote: C. S. Bryant says:

"Job is in the purest Hebrew. The author uses only the word Elohim for the name of God. The compiler or reviser of the work, Moses, or whoever he was, employed at the heads of chapters and in the introductory and concluding portions the name of Jehovah; but all the verses where Jehovah occurs, in Job, are later interpolations in a very old poem, written at a time when the Semitic race had no other name for God but Elohim; before Moses obtained the elements of the new name from Egypt."[2] http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/rag/rag26.htm

David Kelly:
Quote: No, but that's how it's used. I understand God isn't God's name, but God is still used in place of god. Haven't you ever wondered why? I assume it is because it was taboo to say the name of God, after the name was established.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

Quote: John are you gnostic now? This statement just seems really similar to the gnostic view, except you don't mistakenly treat these beings as gods. Much like the gnostic view you agree that evil appears to be the dominant force, but the true God is a less active/more passive good that must be sought. Interesting...

Don't get too interested because that isn't what I said....and no..if you're feeling the need to label me then I'm a Fundamentalist Evangelical Christan.

Most people on this planet are in rebellion against God and have chosen Satan over God, whether they know it or not. That doesn't mean that Satan is dominant over God....just that people are too blind to see God constantly moving in their lives. God is not going to force Himself upon you...that would be evil.

Reality is that Satan isn’t a god…and has a destiny of spending eternity in Hell. Hell was designed for him and the ones who follow his lead.

Time is short. Read the writing on the wall for Pete’s sake.

TheTME · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 115

John wrote: TheTME wrote: John wrote: David Kelly wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: David Kelly wrote: psholtz wrote: wannabe wrote: But I digress.....no, no he wasn't....everything he preached had a basis in the OT. Christianity is a Jewish cult, not a Hindu one :wink:
Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt.

Judaism is a cult born in Babylon circa 500 BC. The Jews themselves did not author the OT, nor have much of anything to do w/ its composition (except for the very last books, chronologically speaking), nor does Judaism have much to do w/ Christianity. If anything, Christianity is a very strong counterpoint to Judaism, opposing it in almost every way.

Correct. They held to the same that the Babylonians did, only the rejected all deities but the Goddess of life and fertility. In Canaan a 2nd cult grew out of the local religion rejecting all deities but the God of war. At some point the 2 merged and formed the Jewish Faith merging there 2 deities hence the fact that "God" is an It as it is unisex.

:lol: That's not factual.

It is. You just need to look outside the bible to find the facts.
I have 2 good points supporting me. God never said He was the only one, all he said was he was greedy and you can find that in the Bible.

Not so.

Isaiah 45
21 "Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 43

10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 "I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me.
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.
13 "Even from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?"

Elohim much? Try looking around older text such as the torah, the first scripture.

Why don't you search the book of Job.

Elohim = Trinity = ONE GOD. :-D

The trinity concept was created by the Christian church, there is no mention in the hebrew bible, Elohim does not mean trinity :-D

BTW, the book of Job is no where in the torah.

TheTME · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 115

Hell designed for Satan? Oh boy, here comes some more Christian mythology.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

Quote: The trinity concept was created by the Christian church, there is no mention in the hebrew bible, Elohim does not mean trinity

It's through out the Hebrew Bible. I can't help but see it everywhere when I read the Scriptures. It's just one of those things that happens to you when you're born again...the Bible starts to read differently. You start to see what was there all along.

Take for example the Shema. God says: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

"the LORD" is literally "Yahweh"...Gods name.....why would He stress that He is One? I mean, wouldn't that be obvious?

TheTME · Joined: 09 Aug 2006 Posts: 115

John wrote: Quote: The trinity concept was created by the Christian church, there is no mention in the hebrew bible, Elohim does not mean trinity

It's through out the Hebrew Bible. I can't help but see it everywhere when I read the Scriptures. It's just one of those things that happens to you when you're born again...the Bible starts to read differently. You start to see what was there all along.

Take for example the Shema. God says: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

"the LORD" is literally "Yahweh"...Gods name.....why would He stress

that He is One? I mean, wouldn't that be obvious?

They are trying to get the message that the god of Israel is the only god that they should follow, and that polytheism is not right. Pagens and such were very active when that was written as we can see in the stories in the bible about baal and such.

I noticed how Christians try to read the bible differently, I really like how they say that Jesus only fulfilled some of the law, and that christians choose to follow some but not the rest.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2555 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Don't get too interested because that isn't what I said....and no..if you're feeling the need to label me then I'm a Fundamentalist Evangelical Christan Someone woke up on the wrong side of the pugh today :lol:

Quote: Most people on this planet are in rebellion against God and have chosen Satan over God, whether they know it or not. That doesn't mean that Satan is dominant over God....just that people are too blind to see God constantly moving in their lives. God is not going to force Himself upon you...that would be evil. Ok now read about gnosticism, not with the image of it as an evil cult, but just be an objective reader, and tell me they don't say almost the exact same thing. There are evil forces which seem to rule the world, and people mistakenly take these forces as the true God (the gnostic believe these beings are lesser gods I believe). The true God is good, but must be reached out to in some way (they say because of His/Her disinterest, and you say because it is wrong to force yourself on people). Pretty similar...maybe Gnostic's are really Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians? :lol: Anyway I was really just making an arbitrary comparison.

Quote: Reality is that Satan isn’t a god…and has a destiny of spending eternity in Hell. Hell was designed for him and the ones who follow his lead. What are you implying? :shifty:

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

Quote: Ok now read about gnosticism, not with the image of it as an evil cult, but just be an objective reader, and tell me they don't say almost the exact same thing. There are evil forces which seem to rule the world, and people mistakenly take these forces as the true God (the gnostic believe these beings are lesser gods I believe)

Do you really believe that I'm ignorant about what Gnostics believe? First off....they believe that the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh) is evil and that the "Christ" is a separate god all together. In fact they will deny that Jesus is the Christ and claim that He was just the shell that the "Christ" inhabited for a time.

What I'm talking about are demons.

Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

Quote: The true God is good, but must be reached out to in some way (they say because of His/Her disinterest, and you say because it is wrong to force yourself on people)

To take away your will would be to turn you into a mindless computer, to take away your soul. Can a computer love? So it's an act of love not to force you to do the right thing. And when a person chooses to love his creator in and of their own will....it's a beautiful thing. Prolly the most awesome thing that could ever be created.

Christians believe that there is One source for ALL creation. One God. And that everything else was created by Him. We believe that there is evil in this world because of free will and that rebellion started with a created being that some call Satan. That his sin is like a virus that will spread until everything is destroyed.

Could God have just stopped it all, wiped everything out and started over? Sure. But God saw through time and saw everyone that would have Faith and trust in Him. And He loves us. So, God had to come into His creation in order to save His own. Jesus dying on the cross was a remedy to the virus of sin.....and all those who God looked out and saw are preordained to receive this cure. Not because they are smart enough to believe, but because God knew them before time begun and preordained to save them from sin. Sin had to happen because it is part of the chain reaction in the creation of the ones that God loves.

Are you one of this who God has preordained?

John 10
7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 " I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11" I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
13 "He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
14" I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father."

David Kelly · Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 451 Location: Kissimmee, FL

Hum, funny how the Others were just fine until the Catholics squashed them all. Now they're all evil.
Now there are 2, but 1 came from the Catholics and still the Others are evil. I find this wrong on so many levels. Right they may be and wrong they may be, but evil they are not!

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

David Kelly wrote: Hum, funny how the Others were just fine until the Catholics squashed them all. Now they're all evil.
Now there are 2, but 1 came from the Catholics and still the Others are evil. I find this wrong on so many levels. Right they may be and wrong they may be, but evil they are not!

I'm evil and so are you. We're all evil. Sin is evil, so if you sin even a little bit...then that sin is coming from inside of who you are and is positive proof that you are in fact...evil.

Accepting that is very important if you are seeking a real relationship with God. Part of the cure is realizing that you are sick.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: David Kelly wrote: Hum, funny how the Others were just fine until the Catholics squashed them all. Now they're all evil.
Now there are 2, but 1 came from the Catholics and still the Others are evil. I find this wrong on so many levels. Right they may be and wrong they may be, but evil they are not!

I'm evil and so are you. We're all evil. Sin is evil, so if you sin even a little bit...then that sin is coming from inside of who you are and is positive proof that you are in fact...evil.
But you are also created in the image of God, and God most certainly is not evil.

How do you reconile that fact w/ the "you are evil" bit?

David Kelly · Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 451 Location: Kissimmee, FL

By instinct we are evil, by choice we can be good.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

David Kelly wrote: By instinct we are evil, by choice we can be good.
Evil is a consequence of (very) poor decisions.

Nothing more.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23733

psholtz wrote: John wrote: David Kelly wrote: Hum, funny how the Others were just fine until the Catholics squashed them all. Now they're all evil.
Now there are 2, but 1 came from the Catholics and still the Others are evil. I find this wrong on so many levels. Right they may be and wrong they may be, but evil they are not!

I'm evil and so are you. We're all evil. Sin is evil, so if you sin even a little bit...then that sin is coming from inside of who you are and is positive proof that you are in fact...evil.
But you are also created in the image of God, and God most certainly is not evil.

How do you reconile that fact w/ the "you are evil" bit?

Since the creation of man, mankind has fallen into a corrupt sinful state of being.

David Kelly · Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 451 Location: Kissimmee, FL

No, instinct.
Take a wild 10 year old Human (they still exist) and put them with a civilized 10 year old human, but don't try to civilize them.
What happened? Fight as Humans are social if raised in a group, but territorial if raised alone.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5208 Location: Boston, MA

psholtz wrote: David Kelly wrote: By instinct we are evil, by choice we can be good.
Evil is a consequence of (very) poor decisions.

Nothing more.

The idea that evil is a conesquence of decision and NOT CHOICE is evil itself.

The inability to understand that a decision is not motivated by a choice is voluntary.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Gilbert1908 wrote: psholtz wrote: David Kelly wrote: By instinct we are evil, by choice we can be good.
Evil is a consequence of (very) poor decisions.

Nothing more.

The idea that evil is a conesquence of decision and NOT CHOICE is evil itself.

The inability to understand that a decision is not motivated by a choice is voluntary.
:!?: :!?: :!?:

Decision is - to my knowledge - more or less the same thing as choice..

Or at least it is in the context I was using it.. :?

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: David Kelly wrote: Hum, funny how the Others were just fine until the Catholics squashed them all. Now they're all evil.
Now there are 2, but 1 came from the Catholics and still the Others are evil. I find this wrong on so many levels. Right they may be and wrong they may be, but evil they are not!

I'm evil and so are you. We're all evil. Sin is evil, so if you sin even a little bit...then that sin is coming from inside of who you are and is positive proof that you are in fact...evil.
But you are also created in the image of God, and God most certainly is not evil.

How do you reconile that fact w/ the "you are evil" bit?

Since the creation of man, mankind has fallen into a corrupt sinful state of being.
That's true, but you didn't answer my question either, did you? :wink: