Political Crossfire Forums

[thundertaker]

Interesting links on the subject of whether Jesus aquired his philosophy from the Far East:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/jesus.htm

http://jimvb.home.mindspring.com/ser1998Oct11.htm

It would also explain the long hair and sandals...... :lol:

[eynon]

thundertaker wrote: Interesting links on the subject of whether Jesus aquired his philosophy from the Far East:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/jesus.htm

http://jimvb.home.mindspring.com/ser1998Oct11.htm

It would also explain the long hair and sandals...... :lol:

There were Hindu populations in both Alexandria and Antioch, and Buddhists in Babylon.....The Tibetian things really silly, since it was way the hell away and the system we understand as Tibetian Buddhism hadn't developed yet.

But I digress.....no, no he wasn't....everything he preached had a basis in the OT. Christianity is a Jewish cult, not a Hindu one :wink:

Chief and MAJOR difference between the 2 faiths is the concept of working for enlightenment.....in Buddhism you can, through right action, merit, meditation and such, reach enlightenment, maybe even Buddha or Bhodisatvha-hood......in Christ's teaching you can never EVER work for enlightenment, nor reach it for that matter.

Buddhists want to understand the universe, Christians want a relationship with G-d.

[wormwood]

At first glance the question seems kinda silly, but I have thought about this before. Even though JC does base most of what he says on OT, he has a completely opposite way of carrying it out. In OT was the eye for an eye vengeful God, then he turns into a peace loving hippie practically overnight. It seems like JC changed many aspects of God, or presented them in a way that is almost certainly influenced by eastern philosophy. Aside from that documentary they show on history channel every Christmas that talks of Buddhist monistaries having records of a visitor from Bethlehem (area), JC uses analogies and parables to express his point, in the same way Buddha does. The whole face of Judaism changed and became more like Buddhism than traditional Judaism in my opinion.

[dtwizzy2k5]

Jesus was not a Buddhist for the simple reason that Buddhists, unlike Jesus, are not concerned with trying to figure out what happens in the afterlife or whether or not there is a God.
But, to agree with Wormwood, i would say that Jesus made Judaism much more "buddhist-like" when he founded Christianity.

[eynon]

wormwood wrote: At first glance the question seems kinda silly, but I have thought about this before. Even though JC does base most of what he says on OT, he has a completely opposite way of carrying it out. In OT was the eye for an eye vengeful God, then he turns into a peace loving hippie practically overnight. It seems like JC changed many aspects of God, or presented them in a way that is almost certainly influenced by eastern philosophy. Aside from that documentary they show on history channel every Christmas that talks of Buddhist monistaries having records of a visitor from Bethlehem (area), JC uses analogies and parables to express his point, in the same way Buddha does. The whole face of Judaism changed and became more like Buddhism than traditional Judaism in my opinion.

I doubt the eastern influence.....maybe on the surface both religions present similair "peace loving hippie" ideals, but the theology and concepts behind both faiths are totally different.

For example the Buddha never mentions God, and in one parrable even discounts the idea of an all powerful diety....(I'll try and dig that up later)....meanwhile Jesus spends most of his time talking about God, and more-over having a realtionship with God.....that's pretty OT.

Perhaps there are some comparable ethics, but the faiths are very different.

[psholtz]

wannabe wrote: But I digress.....no, no he wasn't....everything he preached had a basis in the OT. Christianity is a Jewish cult, not a Hindu one :wink:
Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt.

Judaism is a cult born in Babylon circa 500 BC. The Jews themselves did not author the OT, nor have much of anything to do w/ its composition (except for the very last books, chronologically speaking), nor does Judaism have much to do w/ Christianity. If anything, Christianity is a very strong counterpoint to Judaism, opposing it in almost every way.

[cap'n queasy]

Not everyone's main concern about a religion is how strongly they oppose the Jews, Paul.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Not everyone's main concern about a religion is how strongly they oppose the Jews, Paul.
It's important to separate Judaism from Christianity, though..

It's a very common misconception that Chrisitanity arose out of Judaism, something which - historically speaking - is inaccurate. Perhaps Christianity arose tangentially - in a roundabout sort of way - out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), and perhaps Judaism arose (tangentially also, in Babylon) out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), but Christianity is much closer to that (Egyptian) source that Judaism is and Christianity did *not* arise directly out of Judaism.

They are separate streams of thought and philosophy.

[Towie]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Not everyone's main concern about a religion is how strongly they oppose the Jews, Paul.
It's important to separate Judaism from Christianity, though..

It's a very common misconception that Chrisitanity arose out of Judaism, something which - historically speaking - is inaccurate. Perhaps Christianity arose tangentially - in a roundabout sort of way - out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), and perhaps Judaism arose (tangentially also, in Babylon) out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), but Christianity is much closer to that (Egyptian) source that Judaism is and Christianity did *not* arise directly out of Judaism.

They are separate streams of thought and philosophy.

Can you cite sources for this? I'd be interested to read, being that it is totally false. The Jewish faith is the source of Christianity, whether they have many or little similarities.

In response to the original post: Quite interesting.

[psholtz]

Towie wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Not everyone's main concern about a religion is how strongly they oppose the Jews, Paul.
It's important to separate Judaism from Christianity, though..

It's a very common misconception that Chrisitanity arose out of Judaism, something which - historically speaking - is inaccurate. Perhaps Christianity arose tangentially - in a roundabout sort of way - out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), and perhaps Judaism arose (tangentially also, in Babylon) out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), but Christianity is much closer to that (Egyptian) source that Judaism is and Christianity did *not* arise directly out of Judaism.

They are separate streams of thought and philosophy.

Can you cite sources for this? I'd be interested to read, being that it is totally false. The Jewish faith is the source of Christianity, whether they have many or little similarities.
Judaism is a cult born in Babylon no earlier than about 500 BC.

Jesus of Nazareth trained originally w/ the Essenes, a tiny group of Hebrews who still held truth to the *original* faith of the original Israelites. The Essenes (and Jesus) completely turned away from the corrupt, degraded system of Judaism as practiced in the Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus received his final *training* in Egypt w/ the same Magi who were present at his birth. (Moses and Plato before him also obtained their training in Egypt). Jesus was the first and only Jew ever accepted into the Mystery Schools of Egypt.

The early apostles were all Jewish (as was Jesus), but the philosophy and teachings come from Egypt, not from the Jews (i.e., Babylon).

[John]

Quote: Judaism is a cult born in Babylon no earlier than about 500 BC.

Well, there is some truth to what you're saying...in that the religion that bases its belief on the Talmud more than the Bible was born in Babylon. But the Bible and the belief in a coming Messiah that would redeem the fallen has its roots in the Jewish prophets and literally from the Jewish King David's lions.

God choose the Jews to be the oracles of His Word.

Actually it is the original belief that started with Adam. God choose the Jews to spread it to the rest of the world after much corruption of the original message had taken place..



Quote: Jesus of Nazareth trained originally w/ the Essenes, a tiny group of Hebrews who still held truth to the *original* faith of the original Israelites.

There is nothing to substantiate that claim. In fact Jesus would have broken just about every Essene belief in His interaction with sinners.

Jesus didn't train to be a Rabbi....He was trained to be a carpenter. The people of His own home town were amazed in His knowledge when He went there during His ministry. Why would they be so surprised if He had been train by the local holy men? Truth is.....Jesus is God incarnate and that's where His wisdom came from. Not by being trained by a hermit group of Essenes.

You need to be careful about what you claim of the Lord of lords and King of kings, my friend.

[psholtz]

John wrote: God choose the Jews to be the oracles of His Word.

Actually it is the original belief that started with Adam. God choose the Jews to spread it to the rest of the world after much corruption of the original message had taken place..
There is some truth to all this.. I would even go so far as to agree w/ you that the "message" in the Bible is the *original* message from God, as handed down to mankind (albeit in very battered form).

However, first of all bear in mind that the "Jews" were not chosen for much of anything, by God or by anyone else (other than, perhaps, King Cyrus of Persia). The word "Jew" doesn't even appear in the OT until the very latest books, those that were written in or around Babylon and which close the canon at around 500 BC:

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=jews&qs_version=31

Were the Israelites chosen by God for some special purpose? Perhaps .. but not the Jews. The Jews don't even make an appearance in the Bible until the Book of Ezra. Certainly they are nowhere to be seen even in the Torah (which, btw, is why it's so difficult for me to stomach rabbinical commentary on the Torah .. reading Rambam or Rashi is always "The Jews this" or "The Jews that", etc.. THERE ARE NO JEWS IN THE TORAH! These rabbis have to *know* this.. to me it only heightens to imposition that the rabbis are trying to pull off in writing such things).

Quote: Quote: Jesus of Nazareth trained originally w/ the Essenes, a tiny group of Hebrews who still held truth to the *original* faith of the original Israelites.

There is nothing to substantiate that claim. In fact Jesus would have broken just about every Essene belief in His interaction with sinners.
There is much to substantiate it..

There has long been public speculation about this, and it has recently been all but confirmed w/ the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is a great deal of irrefutable documentation that Jesus of Nazareth lived in the Essene communty, much of it available to the public.

There is far less evidence, however, that Jesus ever observed or followed the Jewish religion. Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus ever seen offering sacrifices in the Temple, following Jewish dietary laws (<- which he in fact flauts quite vagrantly) or even bothering to observe a Sabbath. You can say a lot of things about Jesus, but you can't accuse him of practicing the Jewish faith. For this there is no evidence in Scripture.

Quote: Jesus didn't train to be a Rabbi....He was trained to be a carpenter.
You're correct.

He didn't train to be a rabbi.. I never said he did.

Of course, the evidence that he trained to be a carpenter is even more spurious than the evidence that he lived w/ the Essenes.

Quote: The people of His own home town were amazed in His knowledge when He went there during His ministry. Why would they be so surprised if He had been train by the local holy men? Truth is.....Jesus is God incarnate and that's where His wisdom came from. Not by being trained by a hermit group of Essenes.
The Essene community at Qumran on the Dead Sea is not *local* to Galilee or Nazareth. Remember, this was not the era of supersonic flight and magnetic bullet trains. People moved on foot, donkeys or camelback.

Quote: You need to be careful about what you claim of the Lord of lords and King of kings, my friend.
I do my best, my friend.. :-D

[John]

Quote: There is much to substantiate it..

There has long been public speculation about this, and it has recently been all but confirmed w/ the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is a great deal of irrefutable documentation that Jesus of Nazareth lived in the Essene communty, much of it available to the public.


I'd love to see you back this one up. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Towie wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Not everyone's main concern about a religion is how strongly they oppose the Jews, Paul.
It's important to separate Judaism from Christianity, though..

It's a very common misconception that Chrisitanity arose out of Judaism, something which - historically speaking - is inaccurate. Perhaps Christianity arose tangentially - in a roundabout sort of way - out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), and perhaps Judaism arose (tangentially also, in Babylon) out of the faith of the ancient Israelites (i.e., Moses), but Christianity is much closer to that (Egyptian) source that Judaism is and Christianity did *not* arise directly out of Judaism.

They are separate streams of thought and philosophy.

Can you cite sources for this? I'd be interested to read, being that it is totally false. The Jewish faith is the source of Christianity, whether they have many or little similarities.

In response to the original post: Quite interesting.

You'll get no source. Or an extremely non-credible one.

[Lumina]

Jesus was a Jew. The Apostles were also Jews. We don't know what He did after He was 12 until He began His ministry, but we do know that at 12, he astonished the adults in the temple by his understanding of the Scriptures. I'm pretty sure He didn't develop His wisdom at knowledge at 12 through traveling and studying Eastern philosophy.

Because we don't know about His life between 12 and 30, we can only guess that He traveled and studied or whatever it was He did. My guess is that He did a lot of carpentry. Joseph was an older man, and Mary was probably widowed for quite some time, leaving Jesus with the responsibility of taking care of her.

[eynon]

Lumina wrote: Jesus was a Jew. The Apostles were also Jews. We don't know what He did after He was 12 until He began His ministry, but we do know that at 12, he astonished the adults in the temple by his understanding of the Scriptures. I'm pretty sure He didn't develop His wisdom at knowledge at 12 through traveling and studying Eastern philosophy.

Because we don't know about His life between 12 and 30, we can only guess that He traveled and studied or whatever it was He did. My guess is that He did a lot of carpentry. Joseph was an older man, and Mary was probably widowed for quite some time, leaving Jesus with the responsibility of taking care of her.

that's what I think too.......

[wormwood]

dtwizzy2k5:
Quote: Jesus was not a Buddhist for the simple reason that Buddhists, unlike Jesus, are not concerned with trying to figure out what happens in the afterlife or whether or not there is a God Well this is slightly misleading. There is no inherent worship or concern for God in Buddhism, but you are certainly free to have or worship one. Jesus' concept of God finally seems to transcend the anthropomorphic visions of God that prevailed before him, even though he refers to God as the father.

wannabe:
Quote: I doubt the eastern influence.....maybe on the surface both religions present similair "peace loving hippie" ideals, but the theology and concepts behind both faiths are totally different. Are they really so different? Both encourage pacifism and compassion. Both believe that given the right actions and circumstance, you can spend an eternity in a divine state of bliss. Both seek to help you fulfill yourself, by reaching out to others. Both believe that we are eternal beings who should not tarnish our souls by indulging in desires of the flesh. They seem pretty consistent on a base level. It's only when you start comparing particulars that they really seem different, and most of the particulars were added by people over time. For example: how church services are performed, or what people think heaven will be like. At their base there is not really too much of a conflict that I can see.

Quote: For example the Buddha never mentions God, and in one parrable even discounts the idea of an all powerful diety....(I'll try and dig that up later)....meanwhile Jesus spends most of his time talking about God, and more-over having a realtionship with God.....that's pretty OT. He does mention God (or gods I should say) have you ever read the story of his birth? He just says he is not really concerned with them, and that people have a personal responsibility to reach divinity. Still to me there is no conflict. If one group of people obeys the law because they know they should, and the other group obeys the law only because they know the cops are watching, did both groups not still obey the law?

[wormwood]

psholtz:
Quote: Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt. Where does the compassion come into play? There was no comparable moral code that accompanied the traditions of ancient Egypt, which BTW were based on older Sumerian traditions. So really one should say that Judaism is based on older Sumerian traditions. If you read genesis, it pretty much says that same thing. Abram's father was a temple priest in UR which was one of the primary holy cities of ancient Sumeria. ( I do realize that the actual translation is "Ur of the Chaldean's" which is anachronistic). His father being temple priest it is no surprise that he knew all of the stories from the other religion including genesis and the flood.

[David Kelly]

psholtz wrote: wannabe wrote: But I digress.....no, no he wasn't....everything he preached had a basis in the OT. Christianity is a Jewish cult, not a Hindu one :wink:
Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt.

Judaism is a cult born in Babylon circa 500 BC. The Jews themselves did not author the OT, nor have much of anything to do w/ its composition (except for the very last books, chronologically speaking), nor does Judaism have much to do w/ Christianity. If anything, Christianity is a very strong counterpoint to Judaism, opposing it in almost every way.

Correct. They held to the same that the Babylonians did, only the rejected all deities but the Goddess of life and fertility. In Canaan a 2nd cult grew out of the local religion rejecting all deities but the God of war. At some point the 2 merged and formed the Jewish Faith merging there 2 deities hence the fact that "God" is an It as it is unisex.

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: psholtz:
Quote: Christianity had its basis in the same place that the religion of Moses did, namely in the Mystery Teachings of ancient Egypt. Where does the compassion come into play? There was no comparable moral code that accompanied the traditions of ancient Egypt, which BTW were based on older Sumerian traditions. So really one should say that Judaism is based on older Sumerian traditions. If you read genesis, it pretty much says that same thing. Abram's father was a temple priest in UR which was one of the primary holy cities of ancient Sumeria. ( I do realize that the actual translation is "Ur of the Chaldean's" which is anachronistic). His father being temple priest it is no surprise that he knew all of the stories from the other religion including genesis and the flood.
Anger and violence have always been issues in the Jewish community.

Jesus' ministry was directed specifically at the Jews, and so the bulk of his ministry was aimed at specifically countering those morals impediments which were holding the Jewish community back and away from God. Anger, violence and hate were foremost among these moral issues, and compassion is a great antidote to them.

Hence Jesus' repeatedly stressing compassion and mercy..