Political Crossfire Forums

[Secondary Oak]

In criminal justice, when someone is harboring criminals, he becomes what is known as an accomplice, which is under the same degree of guilt as the criminal himself.

Lebanon has been harboring Hezbollah for many years, allowing it to act with impunity. As far as I'm concerned, Hezbollah's actions on July 12 constitute an act of war on Israel by Lebanon, and this war is between Israel and Lebanon. Just because Lebanon is using Hezbollah instead of its army does not make it innocent.

Well okay, I realize the case is more like Hezbollah using Lebanon than the other way around. But basically those are Lebanon's problem. I know a deeper understanding than my shallow opinion is needed; without understanding what Hezbollah really is and what role Lebanon serves this conflict could not be resolved. And this may be an internal Lebanese issue but it's of course not only a Lebanese problem. But nevertheless I do assert that this is a war started by Lebanon, the country. Lebanon as the sovereign is responsible for its territory. Furthermore, Hezbollah's party is a part of the Lebanese government. The government, not just the parliament. They are among the ones making decisions. Or to phrase it differently: as a part of the government, decisions Hezbollah makes are basically decisions the government makes.

This is why I'm so furious about the speech recently carried out by the Lebanese PM "in tears" (source). Lebanon is responsible for launching an attack against another nation and then its PM is up in tears about the other nation actually responding.

Israel itself does not exactly subscribe to this view of mine. It has been targeting Hezbollah, and not the Lebanese military. It is, of course, correct. So what's the point of my thread? Don't know. I suppose it's just to voice how strongly I feel about the Lebanese guilt in this matter. Not to say it should be destroyed or something, but I just don't think this fact is being stressed strongly enough.

You are of course more than welcome to try and convince me otherwise. Any thoughts?

[cap'n queasy]

I would have to say I totally agree with that assessment of the situation.
Hezbollah is a faction in their government. If, say, the Green Party launched an attack on Mexico, I'm sure the Mexicans would not make any distinction betwen the Green Party and the rest of America. And it would be foolish to expect them to do this.

They could rightly say the US attacked them.

[skinn]

i agree, lebanon is responsible.
i am ashamed by our weak PM bursting into tears like babies, weak corrupt stupid government !!!!
we need someone strong and responsible.

I swear it's like the 6th or 7th time i've seen this guy cry, he's pathetic, not worthy of leading a strong lebanon.

[FarPastGone]

Excellent post. I think many will agree with you Secondary Oak, in my opinion the negative sentiment towards Israel has just been amplified by the harshness and tactics with which Israel has carried out this operation along with the medias portrayal of a victimized and raped Lebanon (not that it hasn't been in some ways) in turn leading people to forget the ultimate issues of the problem. However, even having a decent understanding of the situation you (everyone in general) must feel some sorrow for the disproportional number of innocent Lebanese killed (not that the fallen Israelis do not deserve sympathy), and the unfortunate circumstances the operation has created. What really I am trying to convey is that in the thick of things, the atrocities, the numbers, the reports, the opinions, the true goal is always going to be tainted by someone or something and that should never detour you from that fact that something has been accomplished; if of course the ultimate goal is reached. It is just sad and very very unfortunate that these goals have come with the cost of innocent lives (on both sides).

For the record my personal disdain towards Israel has always been there, these events have done nothing to create a hate or contempt for the Israeli people. I just do not have a favorable view of our dealings with Israel, it is mainly due to my government. While I know and understand the American support politically of Israel is a great assets to your country I personally feel that financially there are greater endeavors in the world that deserve venturing into (people who are worse off, alternative energy resources, and homeland education). Not that Israel is not a good ally, I just feel that your economy and financial situation does not merit the billions of aid that could be used to spend on more humanitarian centered projects.

[augustus kafka]

i don't know if i have the right to disagree with an actual lebanese poster or even say what i'm about to say, given that he or she probably knows a lot more about what's going on there than i do. either way, i'll say it.

i don't believe, and i've heard this from other sources as well, that the lebanese have really had the ability to shake off hizbollah even if they wanted to. their army is too poorly trained, and hizbollah provides many services for them. now, if the world began to give funds to lebanon in order to replace hizbollah's services with government-funded ones, then hizbollah would be easier to kick out. but i don't know if it would allow that to happen.

[FarPastGone]

Yes according to the special on Hezbollah that CNN had they provide many services to the people of Southern Lebanon, water, trash disposal, home repairs, hospitals, and schools. I think the civilian support of Hezbollah will be the toughest thing to root out if at all possible, just because people do not share the same ideologies does not still mean that some of these men cannot be held as heros for helping to atleast better there lives in some way or another.

I have also heard the Lebanon did not have the sheer power to destroy Hezbollah, but with a PM who says he has respect for Nasrallah it is hard to tell. If they really had the intentions to remove Hezbollah I am sure they could have gotten outside support. Personally I think Lebanon was backed into a corner, they were possibly powerless against Hezbollah militarily, but even more they would be turning against a group that helped in the withdrawl of Israel as well as had some value to the community in Lebanon.

[liberty12345]

hizbollah and hamas dont want peace with isreal as a state in anyway it goes against the core of what they were created for. I dont see isreal having another choice other than try and destroy hizbollah... cause the arab nations want do it that's for sure.

[mr_happy]

If Lebanon really wanted to get rid of Hezbullah, they could've asked for UN support. I'm sure even the Israelis would've given them some nice toys for the job. Either way, however, the highest price would've been payed by the Lebanese people since Hezbullah uses them as shields. If Israel wasn't the ones bombing innocent people it would've been the Lebanese government. The focus now needs to be the destruction of Hezbullah, the empowerment of the lebanese government, and better intelligence to prevent civillian deaths.

[skinn]

hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

[thatisnotme]

skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

[skinn]

thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

[thatisnotme]

skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

NATO forces bombed Belgrade. The population rose up against their own government, and Milosevitch was taken down. Same thing here, a new government is in need, one that will not tolerate an armed organization like Hezbollah.

[skinn]

thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

NATO forces bombed Belgrade. The population rose up against their own government, and Milosevitch was taken down. Same thing here, a new government is in need, one that will not tolerate an armed organization like Hezbollah.

what ever your heavenly end is, war crimes and deliberate massacres are not a valuable mean.

[loquitor]

doesnt hez have at least 2 member in the parliament of leb? if true, makes hez an element of the government.

[thatisnotme]

skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

NATO forces bombed Belgrade. The population rose up against their own government, and Milosevitch was taken down. Same thing here, a new government is in need, one that will not tolerate an armed organization like Hezbollah.

what ever your heavenly end is, war crimes and deliberate massacres are not a valuable mean.

You should tell your hezbollah to stop their war crimes before demanding it from Israel. They were supposed to disarm according to UN resolution 1559. They never did, now Israel has to do the dirty work that the Lebanese government couldn't or didn't want to do.

[skinn]

thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

NATO forces bombed Belgrade. The population rose up against their own government, and Milosevitch was taken down. Same thing here, a new government is in need, one that will not tolerate an armed organization like Hezbollah.

what ever your heavenly end is, war crimes and deliberate massacres are not a valuable mean.

You should tell your hezbollah to stop their war crimes before demanding it from Israel. They were supposed to disarm according to UN resolution 1559. They never did, now Israel has to do the dirty work that the Lebanese government couldn't or didn't want to do.

ever heard of 425? it took israel 22 years to implement it.
i would settle for the same amount of time.

the massacres of sarroufin, of qana, of qaa, of shiyah, of Tyr are intentionnel and deliberate.

whatever the reason is, israel does not have the right to kill children.

nothing you can say can make it seem right, killing children cannot seem right to any living creature, as u certainly are.

[Iven]

What would we all be saying if the technology that we developed was never developed?

WW1, and 2 had way more collateral damage.

[Ssushi]

liberty12345 wrote: hizbollah and hamas dont want peace with isreal as a state in anyway it goes against the core of what they were created for. I dont see isreal having another choice other than try and destroy hizbollah... cause the arab nations want do it that's for sure.

Ask yourself: if someone took part of your land and gave it to other people, would you be happy? The creation of Israel in the first place was a big big mistake. Did you know that the first option was to give the Jews a homeland in South America (Argentina I think)? This would have been a way better solution, keeping the two side apart by a large distance...

[superskippy]

Whether Israel should or should not have come into being is a point long since past relivence, we are here, we will stay, and we will kill to keep us here. What matters now is that these groups do not even acknowledge we will or do exist, and that must be rectified because if it isnt then this conflict will continue and the Arabs will once again suffer a great deal of bloodshed and look at us in anger crying out "why?!". We are here Ssushi and the Arabs have to deal with us, regardless of their perceived anger at why or how we came into existance, they must accept it and come to the table.

If they continue with this method to resolve their problams and claimed grievences we will be forced to spill a great deal of blood and many an innocent people will die, and this will still persist and we will not give in. For if it's one thing they have found out about Israel something they have found to be the worst weapon against them is that we have a furious and terrible resolve and that after 60 years we will fight every moment they do. They must accept us and accept peace.

[thatisnotme]

skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: thatisnotme wrote: skinn wrote: hizbollah cannot be taken by force, hizbollah's arms can only be handed by negotiation and trust.
one thing the world should know about hizbollah and hassan nassrallah is that they never lie, they always say the truth and their world can be trusted.

their is a problem of trust between the lebanese gevernment ( future movement, PSP ) and hezbollah.

Did you notice that the so-called anti hezbollah government includes hizbollah ministers?

the reason is that mr sanioura (PM) and the other government figures, were for the last 15 years Pro-hezbollah and fierce pro-syrians.
In the last election they were allied with hizbollah and promised hizbollah they will protect his weapons, a couple month later hizbollah was surprised they staggered him in the back.

Our government is very weak and not trustworthy, a weak cry-baby government

Reasons why Israel has to take down this Lebanese government -- it is in bed with the terrorists.

do it without killing civilians and distroying the whole lebanese infrastructure :)

NATO forces bombed Belgrade. The population rose up against their own government, and Milosevitch was taken down. Same thing here, a new government is in need, one that will not tolerate an armed organization like Hezbollah.

what ever your heavenly end is, war crimes and deliberate massacres are not a valuable mean.

You should tell your hezbollah to stop their war crimes before demanding it from Israel. They were supposed to disarm according to UN resolution 1559. They never did, now Israel has to do the dirty work that the Lebanese government couldn't or didn't want to do.

ever heard of 425? it took israel 22 years to implement it.
i would settle for the same amount of time.

the massacres of sarroufin, of qana, of qaa, of shiyah, of Tyr are intentionnel and deliberate.

whatever the reason is, israel does not have the right to kill children.

nothing you can say can make it seem right, killing children cannot seem right to any living creature, as u certainly are.

Again, bring that message to your Hezbollah fighters who deliberately hide behind children. They are the ones responsible for their deaths.