Political Crossfire Forums

[mr_happy]

I doubt a pilot flying at 30,000 feet can deliberately hit anyone. They can try, but even smart bombs have something like a 50%-10% failure rate.

[SpartanPhalanx]

mr_happy wrote: I doubt a pilot flying at 30,000 feet can deliberately hit anyone. They can try, but even smart bombs have something like a 50%-10% failure rate.


Thanks for your admission of the continuing massacres of civilians by Israel. Todays events in London have taken the spotlight off Israel and from what the the below news report on Israeli operations states, they seem to be taking full advantage; 50 dead Lebanese civilians in 3 days and you have to scour sources for information on todays news sites....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1842195,00.html

[superskippy]

Quote: Thanks for your admission of the continuing massacres of civilians by Israel. Todays events in London have taken the spotlight off Israel and from what the the below news report on Israeli operations states, they seem to be taking full advantage; 50 dead Lebanese civilians in 3 days and you have to scour sources for information on todays news sites....

You know full well thats a gross conclusion and misrepresentation of he said. A precision munition isnt 100% accurate it can still miss but it is the best we have to minimize civilian casualties and hit what we want to.

As for your claim that we are cutting down the Lebanese in droves and using a media cover to accomplish massacre, is simply untrue and doesnt warrant more of a response than that.

[SpartanPhalanx]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Thanks for your admission of the continuing massacres of civilians by Israel. Todays events in London have taken the spotlight off Israel and from what the the below news report on Israeli operations states, they seem to be taking full advantage; 50 dead Lebanese civilians in 3 days and you have to scour sources for information on todays news sites....

You know full well thats a gross conclusion and misrepresentation of he said. A precision munition isnt 100% accurate it can still miss but it is the best we have to minimize civilian casualties and hit what we want to.

As for your claim that we are cutting down the Lebanese in droves and using a media cover to accomplish massacre, is simply untrue and doesnt warrant more of a response than that.

Israel does not care about civilian casualties Skippy, so please, stop pretending that they do. SS-rael is now a fascist state (yes, this is my new word for Israel...:-) Its actions are clearly in line with those of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan even though Israel does not employ the fascist political doctrine, its military doctrine of death and occupation, both in the occupied territories and in Lebanon is identical.


Israel is using an obscene amount of firepower which is accomplishing absolutely nothing except the radicalisation of the Arab world and of world opinion in general, possibly generating more movements against the Zionist State in addition to Hezbollah in the future.

Stop pretending Israel is humane in its conduct because the results of Israel's carnage, not only now, but throughout its occupation in Lebanon from past wars are there for all to see.

Just a few hours ago the UN has come to an agreement on a draft resolution for a cease-fire. Israel immediately responds by expanding its offensive in Lebanon, meaning many more people are going to die.

I would seriously reconsider your position Skip, your arguments and those of your allies are looking more hollow with every passing day.

[thatisnotme]

SpartanPhalanx wrote:

Israel does not care about civilian casualties...


If that were true, by now you would have tens of thousands of Lebanese dead. The fact shows otherwise. It is that Israel cares that prevents it from wiping out Hezbollah completely because Israel HAS the power to do it.

[superskippy]

Quote: Israel does not care about civilian casualties Skippy, so please, stop pretending that they do. SS-rael is now a fascist state (yes, this is my new word for Israel... Its actions are clearly in line with those of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan even though Israel does not employ the fascist political doctrine, its military doctrine of death and occupation, both in the occupied territories and in Lebanon is identical.

Now the ultimate comparison between Israel with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Spartan there is no comparison between the Axis Powers and Israel.

If we were truly similar than we would have flattened, Beirut, Tyre, and Acre, we would have slaughtered tens of thousands of people and used the full weight of our military arsenal to make sure Lebanon burned to the ground for our own security. We would have done far worse than kill 600-700 civilians for 23,000 outgoing rounds fired.

Your comparison between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and term of "SSrael" is both obscene, disgusting, and wildly insane.

Quote: Israel is using an obscene amount of firepower which is accomplishing absolutely nothing except the radicalisation of the Arab world and of world opinion in general, possibly generating more movements against the Zionist State in addition to Hezbollah in the future.

With this obscene amount of firepower and our disregard for human life wouldnt it make sense that after 3 weeks and some 23,000 bombs, artillary shells, and missiles, we would have killed more than even 900 civilians?

Quote: Stop pretending Israel is humane in its conduct because the results of Israel's carnage, not only now, but throughout its occupation in Lebanon from past wars are there for all to see.

I dont have to pretend Israel is humane, just like I dont have to pretend we were just in our decision to strike back.

Quote: Just a few hours ago the UN has come to an agreement on a draft resolution for a cease-fire. Israel immediately responds by expanding its offensive in Lebanon, meaning many more people are going to die.

Meaning like always we are trying to finish a campaign in a time constraint and do as much damage against Hezbollah as we possibly can before it is implimented. As well as give us a large area of operations before the UN resolution is truly enacted if it ever is.

Quote: I would seriously reconsider your position Skip, your arguments and those of your allies are looking more hollow with every passing day.

I feel more confident in my position than ever, what I would reconsider is your senseless comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany the most evil government to rise up in our history. I cannot begin to describe the obscene nature of this comparison.

Stick to your arguments not to senseless insane comparisons like that.

[SpartanPhalanx]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Israel does not care about civilian casualties Skippy, so please, stop pretending that they do. SS-rael is now a fascist state (yes, this is my new word for Israel... Its actions are clearly in line with those of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan even though Israel does not employ the fascist political doctrine, its military doctrine of death and occupation, both in the occupied territories and in Lebanon is identical.

Now the ultimate comparison between Israel with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Spartan there is no comparison between the Axis Powers and Israel.

If we were truly similar than we would have flattened, Beirut, Tyre, and Acre, we would have slaughtered tens of thousands of people and used the full weight of our military arsenal to make sure Lebanon burned to the ground for our own security. We would have done far worse than kill 600-700 civilians for 23,000 outgoing rounds fired.

Your comparison between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan and term of "SSrael" is both obscene, disgusting, and wildly insane.

Quote: Israel is using an obscene amount of firepower which is accomplishing absolutely nothing except the radicalisation of the Arab world and of world opinion in general, possibly generating more movements against the Zionist State in addition to Hezbollah in the future.

With this obscene amount of firepower and our disregard for human life wouldnt it make sense that after 3 weeks and some 23,000 bombs, artillary shells, and missiles, we would have killed more than even 900 civilians?

Quote: Stop pretending Israel is humane in its conduct because the results of Israel's carnage, not only now, but throughout its occupation in Lebanon from past wars are there for all to see.

I dont have to pretend Israel is humane, just like I dont have to pretend we were just in our decision to strike back.

Quote: Just a few hours ago the UN has come to an agreement on a draft resolution for a cease-fire. Israel immediately responds by expanding its offensive in Lebanon, meaning many more people are going to die.

Meaning like always we are trying to finish a campaign in a time constraint and do as much damage against Hezbollah as we possibly can before it is implimented. As well as give us a large area of operations before the UN resolution is truly enacted if it ever is.

Quote: I would seriously reconsider your position Skip, your arguments and those of your allies are looking more hollow with every passing day.

I feel more confident in my position than ever, what I would reconsider is your senseless comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany the most evil government to rise up in our history. I cannot begin to describe the obscene nature of this comparison.

Stick to your arguments not to senseless insane comparisons like that.

Skippy, your arguments , as I said are hollow.....just because you don't detonate a 50 Megaton device over Beirut does NOT TRANSLATE to fighting a war where civilians are not targeted. Heres a report from CBS
about a column of civilians who had Israeli clearance to leave southern Lebanon today, yet they were attacked by a "drone" and 7 people were killed and 27 injured. Israel is fast running out of excuses about why it targets civilians. The proof tells a different tale.

All of southern Lebanon is under massive artillery and air bombardment, and the ground invasion is a go, all this while the UN has just passed UNSC 1701.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/11/ap/world/mainD8JEHE380.shtml


I am sorry you are sensitive to comparisons to Nazi Germany, but I am sure the hundreds of thousands of civilians affected by Israeli aggression would beg to differ with you. You had a choice when your soldiers were kidnapped back on 12July. Israel completely by-passed the diplomatic track and launched a war of aggression on the people of south Lebanon.Whether you like it or not, this was an act of aggression, much like the German destruction of Warsaw in 1939.

There are people there who are probably starving in southern Lebanon because SS-rael will not allow humanitarian aid convoys to reach them.

This is an outrage and your outrage against what I said would be better placed with your government for causing the suffering of so many people.

Shame on SS-rael and its patron, the United States.

[superskippy]

Quote: Skippy, your arguments , as I said are hollow.....just because you don't detonate a 50 Megaton device over Beirut does NOT TRANSLATE to fighting a war where civilians are not targeted. Heres a report from CBS
about a column of civilians who had Israeli clearance to leave southern Lebanon today, yet they were attacked by a "drone" and 7 people were killed and 27 injured. Israel is fast running out of excuses about why it targets civilians. The proof tells a different tale.

A mistaken attack for which we warned thoroughly against.

And from the article, Quote: Israel's military said no convoys had been coordinated with the army. and Quote: Two armored U.N. peacekeeping vehicles were to have accompanied the convoy, Daher said, but were not present .

So all we saw was a small group of vehicles traveling in a warzone when we told them not to.

Quote: I am sorry you are sensitive to comparisons to Nazi Germany, but I am sure the hundreds of thousands of civilians affected by Israeli aggression would beg to differ with you. You had a choice when your soldiers were kidnapped back on 12July.

Spartan it wasnt just the two soldiers, they killed 10 soldiers, and wounded 22 others as well as a rocket strike wounded 8 civilians. This was a major attack on Israeli soil, we werent going to go through the paces to have nothing occur of it.

Quote: Israel completely by-passed the diplomatic track and launched a war of aggression on the people of south Lebanon.Whether you like it or not, this was an act of aggression, much like the German destruction of Warsaw in 1939.

Comparing this to the Warsaw bombing and the German invasion shows a real lack of actual argument to present, and is utterly insane.

September 1939 the Luftwaffe commances the destruction of Warsaw as wave of air squadrons move against the city. Tons of bombs dropped in carpet bombing runs and incedinary bombardments raze the city to the ground most of the major buildings flattened. When at last the city was forced to capitulate on September 28th 36,000 people had died in the city, 100,000 more were wounded. Warsaw was a funeral pyre.

There is no comparison in this conflict to that Spartan. Accuse us of crimes and murder fine. But to draw a comparison like that is both wrong and obscene.

[Di]

Indeed, it's a good thing that no Israeli children have been killed by the thousands of indiscriminate rockets fired into Israel by Hezbollah... oh, wait...

[maalox]

skinn wrote: i agree, lebanon is responsible.
i am ashamed by our weak PM bursting into tears like babies, weak corrupt stupid government !!!!
we need someone strong and responsible.

I swear it's like the 6th or 7th time i've seen this guy cry, he's pathetic, not worthy of leading a strong lebanon.


yeah someone strong like u

[skinn]

maalox wrote: skinn wrote: i agree, lebanon is responsible.
i am ashamed by our weak PM bursting into tears like babies, weak corrupt stupid government !!!!
we need someone strong and responsible.

I swear it's like the 6th or 7th time i've seen this guy cry, he's pathetic, not worthy of leading a strong lebanon.


yeah someone strong like u

ok :roll:

[Plato & Socrates]

Secondary Oak wrote: In criminal justice, when someone is harboring criminals, he becomes what is known as an accomplice, which is under the same degree of guilt as the criminal himself.

Lebanon has been harboring Hezbollah for many years, allowing it to act with impunity. As far as I'm concerned, Hezbollah's actions on July 12 constitute an act of war on Israel by Lebanon, and this war is between Israel and Lebanon. Just because Lebanon is using Hezbollah instead of its army does not make it innocent.

Well okay, I realize the case is more like Hezbollah using Lebanon than the other way around. But basically those are Lebanon's problem. I know a deeper understanding than my shallow opinion is needed; without understanding what Hezbollah really is and what role Lebanon serves this conflict could not be resolved. And this may be an internal Lebanese issue but it's of course not only a Lebanese problem. But nevertheless I do assert that this is a war started by Lebanon, the country. Lebanon as the sovereign is responsible for its territory. Furthermore, Hezbollah's party is a part of the Lebanese government. The government, not just the parliament. They are among the ones making decisions. Or to phrase it differently: as a part of the government, decisions Hezbollah makes are basically decisions the government makes.

This is why I'm so furious about the speech recently carried out by the Lebanese PM "in tears" (source). Lebanon is responsible for launching an attack against another nation and then its PM is up in tears about the other nation actually responding.

Israel itself does not exactly subscribe to this view of mine. It has been targeting Hezbollah, and not the Lebanese military. It is, of course, correct. So what's the point of my thread? Don't know. I suppose it's just to voice how strongly I feel about the Lebanese guilt in this matter. Not to say it should be destroyed or something, but I just don't think this fact is being stressed strongly enough.

You are of course more than welcome to try and convince me otherwise. Any thoughts?

Tut tut tut. :roll: Is this the latest line of thinking amongst the army personnel and in the cafe's in Israel, to justify your bombing and carnage in Lebanon. Do you yourself even know why your engaged in Lebanon? Is it for the soldiers? Silly me, I nearly forgot, :roll: For Israel to prevent terrorism by dropping bombs on Lebanon is such an obvious idea that I can't think why no one has thought of it before. It's so simple. If only the UK had done something similar in Northern Ireland, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today. :roll:

The moment the IRA blew up the Horseguards' bandstand or the Brighton bombing or Canary warf, the British Government should have declared its own War on Terrorism. It should have immediately demanded that the Irish government hand over Gerry Adams. If they refused to do so - or quibbled about needing proof of his guilt - we could have told them that this was no time for prevarication and that they must hand over not only Adams but all IRA terrorists in the Republic as well as disarm them. If they tried to stall by claiming that it was hard to tell who were IRA terrorists and who weren't, because they don't go around wearing identity badges, we would have been free to send in the bombers.

It is well known that the best way of picking out terrorists is to fly 30,000ft above the capital city of any state that harbours them and drop bombs, preferably cluster bombs. It is conceivable that the bombing of Dublin might have provoked some sort of protest, even if just from James Joyce or Oscar Wilde fans (both Paddy's), and there is at least some likelihood of increased anti-British sentiment in what remained of the city and thus a rise in the numbers of potential terrorists. But this, in itself, would have justified the tactic of bombing them in the first place. We would have nipped them in the bud, so to speak. I hope you follow my argument. :roll:

Having bombed Dublin and, perhaps, a few IRA training bogs in Tipperary, we could not have afforded to be complacent. We would have had to turn our attention to those states which had supported and funded the IRA terrorists through all these years. The main provider of funds was, of course, the USA, and this would have posed us with a bit of a problem. Where to bomb in America? It's a big place and it's by no means certain that a small country like the UK could afford enough bombs to do the whole job. It's going to cost Israel billions to bomb Lebanon back to the dark ages trying to dismantling Hezbollah. America, also provides just as bewildering number of targets.

Should we have bombed Washington, where the policies were formed? Or should we have concentrated on places where Irishmen are known to lurk, like New York, Boston and Philadelphia? We could have bombed any police station and fire station in most major urban centres, secure in the knowledge that we would be taking out significant numbers of IRA sympathisers. On St Patrick's Day, we could have bombed Fifth Avenue and scored a bull's-eye.
In those American cities we couldn't afford to bomb, for we all know that would have been a republican strongholds. How many times did the British government protest in the strongest terms to the U.S that the I.R.A was a terrorist group.

We stipulated to the U.S that allowing I.R.A fund-raising on their patch was directly responsible for the purchasing of weapons and materials, that consistanly was used to kill and maim innocent civilians as well as disrupt our standards and way of life. The U.S was culpable by their decesion to allow fundraising in the deaths of my fellow citizens, and they allowed Irish republicanism fundraising for YEARS.

Why did U.S policy allow this? It was a fact the many U.S politicians had significant Irish decendant populations. Going against the Irish Repulican cause as a U.S politician was almost political suicide. So the deaths of British civilians, was the price worth paying for many U.S politicians who showed support for the Irish cause.

The same goes for Australia. There are thousands of people in Sydney and Melbourne alone who have actively supported Irish republicanism by sending money and good wishes back to people in the Republic, many of whom are known to be IRA members and sympathisers. A well-placed bomb or two Down Under could have taken out the ringleaders and left the world a safer place. Of course, it goes without saying that we would also have had to bomb various parts of London such as Camden Town, Kilburn, Tottenham, Lewisham and bits of Hammersmith and we should certainly have had to obliterate, if not the whole of Liverpool, at least the Scotland Road area.

And that would be it really, as far as exterminating the IRA and its supporters. Easy. The War on Terrorism provides a solution so uncomplicated, so straightforward and so gloriously simple that it baffles me why it has taken a man with the brains of George W. Bush to think of it. It works so well that Israel has been bombing the occupied territory's, without diminishing the capacity and will for Palestinians to stop resisting.

Hezbollah is a militia, who work independently from the state. The whole planet knows that the Lebanese government was virtually powerless to dismantle Hezbollah. We Brits had the whole power of the state behind us and it took us 30 years to dismantle the IRA. We understood the only way for the I.R.A to dismantle, would only have been by their own consent. In that time the IRA had built up massive arms dumps and explosives. They had the capability to hit us at any time, but we understood that escalating these conflicts are entirely counter productive.

Blaming the Lebanese government and making them culpable with Hezbollah, well to be quite frank that is just nonsense.

[HaHA]

Isreal is responsible for the attacks, as soon as they heard their some of their men were captured they should of never reslulted to violence and should of negotiated instead of bombing and sending in troops. violence doesnt solve anything

[superskippy]

Thats naieve, violence solves many of the worlds problams. How did we solve the problam of Nazi Germany and it's actions?

[skinn]

superskippy wrote: Thats naieve, violence solves many of the worlds problams. How did we solve the problam of Nazi Germany and it's actions?

haw did nazi germani try to solve her problems? :roll:

[ToonArmyIsComing]

superskippy wrote: Thats naieve, violence solves many of the worlds problams. How did we solve the problam of Nazi Germany and it's actions?

That is a common misconception where people think that the Nazi Germany was beaten militarily. The MAIN reason for the defeat of Nazism was simple: there were actual plans that were implemented after the war to PREVENT the growth of Nazism once again. The war itself was NOT the actual problem solver.

You can look back to WWI. Did it solve anything? No, it just was a prelude to WWII.

[superskippy]

That isnt what I asked, how Nazism was stamped out is a different answer and one linke directly to the military solution. What I asked was how we solved our problam with Nazi Germany and in the end we went through total war to stop them.