Political Crossfire Forums

bigstick61 · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject:

I don't carry it all of the time. I usually only carry it out of State, when in urban areas, in particular areas that are known for high crime, when I go to the office, and when I'm out in the boonies where help can't possibly arrive in time and where there are dangerous animals.

As for how good I am, the revolver really isn't that accurate beyond 25 yards (few handguns are that aren't target guns). I can easily hit the center-of-mass of a person within that range. I usually shoot using a two-handed stance, as it provides greater stability and therefore accuracy. With a rifle, depending on the type, I can usually get my groups in the center of the target and have a group size of 1-1.5 MOA with some rifles, like my K-31, and also at shorter ranges, and 2-3 MOA at longer ranges or with less accurate rifles. I rarely shoot with scoped rifles as I prefer iron sights, although I usually do use a spotting scope, which has helped me in developing accuracy.

Also, in my initial post I did relate the incident regarding drawing my weapon in self-defense, so I need not recount it here.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

biologist said: "You showed stats from a site that promotes gun-control. How are we supposted to take those seriously? Go back and look at the stats I have posted. I am biased in this debate but my stats are not coming from any pro-gun group. They are coming for a site without an agenda. Please try to us sourses that do not come from pro-gun or anti-gun sites as they will be skewed one way or another. And please learn to use the qoute feature, it will make reading you post much easier on all of us."

I'm going to show statistics from any site I choose to show them from. If you want to rebut theme then do so. Don't whine to me that you don't like the source. I'm not going to look at a bunch of statistics that mean nothing. If you want me to look at something specific then tell me what it is and give a link that takes me directly to it. I don't have time for these games. I will not use the qwote feature because I find it cumbersome. Please stop insisting that I do.

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject:

Let's make this simple. If everyone carried a gun, murder rates would go down because criminals would be much more afraid of commiting crimes.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 14445 Location: idaho

He has no ammo to throw at you perd, because he has and is fighting a losing argument.
I will always fight for what is right. Whether it is in a court of law or on a street corner. Mkaes no difference to me.
Now, shrub buster you stated we are a dying breed and going away. Without all of the usual crap about being a propoganda link take a look at this if we are dying out

www.nraila.org/Issues?FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=126

I hardly think we are dying out as you have put it.
Also if you are going to quote me put all of what was said in the bottom of you posts okay. Make it fair.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

perd said: "Hmm, my father also had guns, my whole life. Exactly 0 of his three sons has been involved in violence against others or against them. The closest we've come is that my sister-in-law, who works for a DA, had a contract on her life put out on her by a disgruntled person she had filed charges against."

That's too close for me. None of my siblings nor any of my children or my sibling's children have had any bad experiences of the sort and I don't expect them to.

YOu said: "Guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens harm no one. As I said, our NON-GUN murder rate is higher than most European country's total murder rate. If we magically get rid of every gun in the U.S. tomorrow, we still have a murder rate higher than yours."

THat's nonsense and you know it's nonsense. Guns in the hands of lawabiding citizens cause accidents. You don't think the accidents are of any consequence but that doesn't permit you to lie and say what you have said. You might try saying that guns in the hands of lawabiding citizens cause few accidents, in your opinion. Don't keep making mistakes which I have to correct. If you lose all your guns tomorrow you gun crime rate will miraculously drop to zero the following day. Case closed on that one unless you want to waste more of my time arguing the obvious!

YOu asked: "What statistics do you have that show that guns produce violence? You haven't shown a lick of proof outside of the gun-control Canada site (which is hardly a choice of unbiased data, it has a bunch of selected data which of course are pro-gun control). Are you not savvy enough to find government sources? Note, I don't use NRA or pro-gun sites, I am intellectually honest enough to know that they won't provide the full story."

Take the link that I furnished. Rebut it if you can. Don't whine to me that you don't like it. I can easily find government sources. They usually end in .gov. I don't consider you intellectually honest at all. I find you unteachable and stubborn and even when I prove something to you, you try to disregard it and go on with your wrongheaded beliefs. Then the rest of the gunners say that I haven't provided any facts. I'm getting sick of it frankly.

You asked: "Also, how are criminals going to get access to use the guns in my arsenal against me? I keep the guns and ammunition locked up."
If I was a gunner I could show you. I could search you out and come to your front door and when you opened the door I could stick a gun in your face and demand that you take me to your guns. If you didn't cooperate then I would shoot you dead on the spot. I would then search the house for other gunners and shoot them dead on the spot. I would find your wife or know where your wife and kids were at the time and I would wait for them to come home. When your wife came home I would demand that she show me where the key is to your gun safe is and she would get it for me after seeing your cold, dead body on the floor. I would get your guns and then shoot your wife and kids. Then I would take all your guns because that's where the criminal element gets it's guns anyway. From people like you. Sometimes dead people like you. That was a fictional story but it illustrated the point for you. I have no propensity for crime at all.

You said: "In case you didn't realize this, without ammunition a gun is just a unwieldy club."

If I came to your front door with an unloaded AK47 and pointed it at you and started to make the aforementioned demands, you would change your mind very quickly on your definition of what I was holding in my hands, I assure you! In fact, I suspect that you would experience loose bowel problems.

I would like you to start thinking of taking this conversation to a much more elevated intellectual level. This current bickering back and forth is unproductive and a waste of my valuable time.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

stick said; "I don't carry it all of the time. I usually only carry it out of State, when in urban areas, in particular areas that are known for high crime, when I go to the office, and when I'm out in the boonies where help can't possibly arrive in time and where there are dangerous animals."

YOu don't need it for dangerous animals and it probably wouldn't help you a lot if you were confronted with one. What are you expecting to run into anyway? A grizzly bear? You don't need it for bears and you sure as hell don't need it for anyting else. YOu're talking to a Canadian now pal. But now that you tell me that you carry it out of state, that explains how you can survive in 80 to 90 degree weather in southern cal.

You said: "As for how good I am, the revolver really isn't that accurate beyond 25 yards (few handguns are that aren't target guns). I can easily hit the center-of-mass of a person within that range. I usually shoot using a two-handed stance, as it provides greater stability and therefore accuracy. With a rifle, depending on the type, I can usually get my groups in the center of the target and have a group size of 1-1.5 MOA with some rifles, like my K-31, and also at shorter ranges, and 2-3 MOA at longer ranges or with less accurate rifles. I rarely shoot with scoped rifles as I prefer iron sights, although I usually do use a spotting scope, which has helped me in developing accuracy."

Good answer except that I asked about offhand shooting and I think you are exaggerating when you say 1-1.5 Moa with rifles. Maybe you are talking about prone or benchrest. 2-3 Moa offhand at longer ranges would also be pushing it unless you are using an accurate target rifle and you are an expert marksman. So you need to clarify.

Also, in my initial post I did relate the incident regarding drawing my weapon in self-defense, so I need not recount it here.

You seem to like to talk about your shooting skills and your gun experiences so why not answer? I forgot.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

otacon said: "Let's make this simple. If everyone carried a gun, murder rates would go down because criminals would be much more afraid of commiting crimes."

Simply not true. Pay attention to what is being said here.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

lil said: "He has no ammo to throw at you perd, because he has and is fighting a losing argument."

Says the abusive poster!

You said: "I will always fight for what is right. Whether it is in a court of law or on a street corner. Mkaes no difference to me.
Now, shrub buster you stated we are a dying breed and going away. Without all of the usual crap about being a propoganda link take a look at this if we are dying out

www.nraila.org/Issues?FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=126 "

Not the least bit interested unless you reference it and tell me what you want me to look for.

You said: "I hardly think we are dying out as you have put it.
Also if you are going to quote me put all of what was said in the bottom of you posts okay. Make it fair."

If you choose to use abusive tactics and abusive language then I will choose to post in my signature exactly what I want. I won't change it one iota because it is your exact words. I hope it serves as a learning experience for you.

p.s. But I like your new avatar lil. It's much more civilized and puts you in a much better light in the eyes of the non-gunners. The weapon firing really didn't do you justice. Would you like to learn something about wolves and canines In general. Did you know that the canine family is a pack animal and that dogs regard us as part of their pack. THat makes it extremely unlikely that a coyote would attack a dog when in the presense of it's other pack members. Beware of suspicious stories lil! Anyway, it's a beautiful and extremely intelligent animal and I can't imagine why anyone would ever want to shoot at it.

Otacon · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject:

shrub buster wrote: otacon said: "Let's make this simple. If everyone carried a gun, murder rates would go down because criminals would be much more afraid of commiting crimes."

Simply not true. Pay attention to what is being said here.

It is true. A criminal is less likely to attempt a crime if he thinks that there is a damn good chance he'll get his skull blown in.

bigstick61 · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject:

I have had to draw once, which resulted in profuse apologies from the antagonists, which had knives, and their speedy withdrawal from the area (they wanted money and my watch and said some very unsavory things which need not be repeated to my little sister). That's probably the most polite they've been in their lives. This is what I posted earlier.

As for my rifle performance, that is benched, and prone, however, I can ahcieve similar results using a sling, which most of my rifles have. That's how the military teaches you to shoot, with a sling. I've qualified on the M-14. Also, the animals we have to worry about the most here are mountain lions. They have killed people around here, and some people who carry when out in the wild have killed, wounded, or scared them off before, so it is somewhat valuable. People have also been attacked by bears, usually black bears, and they have shot them in defense as well. My revolver is a .44, so it should be able to kill the types of bears we have here (wouldn't kill a grizzly though, but we don't have those here) as well as the mountain lions. People also shoot coyotes alot, as well as snakes. Also, there have been incidences involving thieves and stuff on hiking trails and other remote places attacking people; most are usually crazy and that's why they live in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't happen too often, but one thing I learned in the Boy Scouts is that you can never be too prepared. It's better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

lil said: "He has no ammo to throw at you perd, because he has and is fighting a losing argument."

Pardon my saying but your sentence structure is atrocious. It would really be much easier to understand you if you took a little more time in reading over what you are trying to say and putting yourself in the place of those who read you.

And in any case, you are bordering on a personal attack against me for no good or apparent reason.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 14445 Location: idaho

Okay you made your point now fix it okay.

I know a great deal about wolves my northern person. Among other things being Cherokee and Blackfeet Indian and it being my spirit animal among other things I know quite a bit. Enough on that okay
The link that I had listed for is in reference to how many "legal" guns and gun owners there are here. That is to show that we "legal owners" are hardly a passing or dying breed as some have said.
People that shoot wolves should be skinned in my book but I am only one person here.
I said what I said to you about the leech thing becasue of what you had said and it did piss me off. I have been warned shrub so you can pull it off and get on with things. But if you want to keep it there okay, but at least put in all of what I said and why it was said.
I apologize to you for my sarcastic remark, and any offense it may have caused you. I am not apologizing to you to appear that I am kissing someones a** . I am apologizing to you for a stupid remark about a dumb statement you had in one of your posts. That is all. When I admit I was wrong it is always meant as simply that "I was wrong".

The link is as follows:

www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=126

Far from being a dying breed if this is any indication. I will find the link for the US Department of Health Services and that almost mirrors this link.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

stick said: "I have had to draw once, which resulted in profuse apologies from the antagonists, which had knives, and their speedy withdrawal from the area (they wanted money and my watch and said some very unsavory things which need not be repeated to my little sister). That's probably the most polite they've been in their lives. This is what I posted earlier.

As for my rifle performance, that is benched, and prone, however, I can ahcieve similar results using a sling, which most of my rifles have. That's how the military teaches you to shoot, with a sling. I've qualified on the M-14. Also, the animals we have to worry about the most here are mountain lions. They have killed people around here, and some people who carry when out in the wild have killed, wounded, or scared them off before, so it is somewhat valuable. People have also been attacked by bears, usually black bears, and they have shot them in defense as well. My revolver is a .44, so it should be able to kill the types of bears we have here (wouldn't kill a grizzly though, but we don't have those here) as well as the mountain lions. People also shoot coyotes alot, as well as snakes. Also, there have been incidences involving thieves and stuff on hiking trails and other remote places attacking people; most are usually crazy and that's why they live in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't happen too often, but one thing I learned in the Boy Scouts is that you can never be too prepared. It's better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it."

Right stick. I have travelled the forested regions of B.C. for 35 years and have never had ocassion to need to shoot a grizzly, a black bear, a cougar, a wolf, or any other lions and tigers and bears. You're safe so lose your gun. That's my opinion. Go out in the woods and enjoy it without taking along your fear and your gun. As for the human animals, who knows in the U.S?

YOur sling won't help you all that much in your offhand performance so how good are you offhand? Consistently 8's or 9's? I'm looking for bulls**t here stick and I know how to search it out. So far you appear to be pretty consistent. A **** would have me believing that he could hit the bull every time at 200 yds offhand by now. LOL

But I'm still a little worried about your original stories of carrying a gun around concealed in urban areas. It appears you are backing off a little on that though. Now you only carry it 'mostly out of state'.

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

lil said: "blackfeet" ??? LOL What kind of wolf is that? Ever seen one up close and personal in the wild? Ever feed one out of your hand? Know what the wolf signifies in native aboriginal legend?

Later man when I have the time.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 14445 Location: idaho

Shrub buster - Blackfeet is my native american tribe. Not a wolf. Where the hell did you get that blackfeet is a wolf.

I am Cherokee Indian and Blackfeet mix - what part of that is not clear.?

Yes, I have been around wolves a great deal in my life. I am not aboriginal so it does not apply to me. I am indian and I am proud of that. Yes, I have seen them many times in the wild, in Alaska and here in Idaho where I work on a volunter basis to bring wolves back into this state. If that is a problem to you then you do have a problem.

By the way Shrub I have aplogized and you have yet to be a man and accept it. If that is to much to expect well - I made an effort. Now I can LOL at you . blackfeet wolf - :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

lil said: "Shrub buster - Blackfeet is my native american tribe. Not a wolf. Where the hell did you get that blackfeet is a wolf."

lil, The Blackfoot tribe has nothing to do with a wolf. I was asking you what kind of wolf you have pictured in your avatar. You may have gathered that by my following words. Did you think I was asking you if you ever fed a blackfeet indian or if you had ever seen one up close??? Duuuuhhhhhhh!!!

You said: "Yes, I have been around wolves a great deal in my life. I am not aboriginal so it does not apply to me. I am indian and I am proud of that. Yes, I have seen them many times in the wild, in Alaska and here in Idaho where I work on a volunter basis to bring wolves back into this state. If that is a problem to you then you do have a problem."

Not a problem at all, so we have something in common, we both know something about wolves. Now tell me what kind of wolf it is so I will know that you know the very basics. Exactly please? Careful, it's a trap. Did you really think that a British Columbia native wouldn't know that a blackfeet isn't a wolf? Guffaw.

You said: "By the way Shrub I have aplogized and you have yet to be a man and accept it. If that is to much to expect well - I made an effort. Now I can LOL at you . blackfeet wolf"

apology accepted.

p.s. Truth is lil, I was laughing at the 'blackfeet' because I didn't know the word was acceptable for the Blackfoot tribe. Ahhhhhh! got me that time!

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

Oh yeah lil, about the coyote story and the coyote attacking the dog in the presence of the dog's pack. ;-)

bigstick61 · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject:

I said that I mostly carry under the following circumstances: when out of State, when in the woods, the desert, and such, and when in urban areas in my State. The way I worded it might have driven you to think I mostly carry out of State alone, but I have fixed what I was trying to say so you'd understand it better.

As for being in the woods, you may have never had the need, but that doesn't mean others don't. For example, in Alaska, they generally don't recommend going into the woods without either a large-caliber handgun or a rifle. Here in California, every now and then you see an article in the local newspaper about someone getting killed or injured by a bear or mountain lion, or someone who shot one in self-defense, so it does happen. It even makes the local news sometimes. I may never need to use it, and I likely won't, but it's there just in case. I like to be prepared; it's something that has become habit in whatever I do. You can never predict the future. And I don't walk the forests and stuff in fear; if I did, I would never go in the first place. I usually pay little attention to my revolver and enjoy myself considerably, so I don't see a reason to lose it.

As for rifle performance, the sling helps me more than you think. Without it my accuracy decreases offhand, and although I shoot 8s, 9s, and Xs, I also shoot alot of 5s, 6s, and 7s, and my groups widen up. The sling helps me get the steadiness I need. Either way, I can still hit a person's center of mass with ease.

lilwolf · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 14445 Location: idaho

First off, thank you for accepting my applogy.

Now, of course I believe this is a Grey wolf from the Northern Montana area. I might be mistaken but the muzzle shape is close or the same.

Yea it does shrub- In the old legends the grey wolf is one of the most powerful and honored totems that we have. I learned the wolf was my spirit animal when I was a young boy. Two Blackfeet (blackfoot) medicine men took me into the mountains in North Montana and I met the wolf. It changed my life and I have the utmost admiration and respect for one of the most magnificant animals that God could have created. Loyal to a t, and fiercly honorable. There is no other animal that i respect as much.
I suppose you are referring to the basic of size and all that:
Just off the top of my head they average about 28 to 34 " tall with females being a little smaller / weigh in at around 60 to 120 pounds (again the female is a bit smaller here as well / Live around 10 to 12 years
(in the wild if they are lucky) / They take ONLY one mate for life.
What else do you need to know?
Yes, I have fed wolves from my hands. When I was a little boy and met the wolf I played with one for a short time. My mother freaked and started to interfere and the medicine man (oldest one of the two) stopped her and told her that if she interfered the wolf would kill me. It (wolf spirit) had chosen me and my life would never be the same. It has never been the same shrub from the time I was 6 till now and I am 53.
There was an almost spiritual change that happened and I have always loved and respected the wolf for who and what it is. A beautiful and majestic creature that deserves respect.
From that day on I have had the indian name of "Lilwolf", it was given to me by the old medicine man named Charlie red Cloud. A proud and honored man that I will always respect and admire.
Anyway enough on that shrub.

I had asked you to look at the link that I had posted with regards to our being a dying breed of people. Take a look at it. It paints a different picture shrub buster.

www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=126

Now if we are dying out as some have said here then why are gun sales way up? Take a look at this link and let me know your comment.

www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?PRloc=common/PR/&PR=060506.cfm

shrub buster · Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 679

lilwolf- yep, canus lupus for sure and not the coastal variety. I can tell when a person is not bull shi**ing me. You're one of the few people I've talked to who actually know something about wolves and respects them for the beautiful animals they are. They represent family ties in the Kwakiutl tradition. The bounty hunter thing threw me off and pissed me off, I don't mind saying until I understood you better.

I'll look at your link and respond when I have time.