Political Crossfire Forums

Radovan · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 60

Yes Lebanon should be partitioned. It was a mistake that Lebanese regions already divided by famous demarkation lines did not embrace confederalism.

Look at Cyprus...the final solution was partition. Muslim turks remain in the north united with their "turk brothers of Turkey" and live in poverty and military dictatorship. Greek Cyprus is a member of EU, a flourished, developed country.

Lebanese factions have different visions and want different things. Therefore, they will never unite in one state and one nation. Bosnia was divided in 1995 into 3 regions, but the case with Lebanon is more complicated. In Lebanon, there are more than 3 communities that will claim autonomy, at least the druze, the maronitesn (maybe combined wiht other christians), sunnis and shias will have to divide this small country into 4 regions and one confederate city; Beirut.

Belgium is another (much more civizilied) example of confederalism. Canada is another, Switzerland...etc...

Its better to live alone rather than bicker with each other endlessly.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15548 Location: On Earth

maalox wrote: we will never and i say NEVER develop

If you work together, then you just might.

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

Radovan wrote: Yes Lebanon should be partitioned. It was a mistake that Lebanese regions already divided by famous demarkation lines did not embrace confederalism.

Look at Cyprus...the final solution was partition. Muslim turks remain in the north united with their "turk brothers of Turkey" and live in poverty and military dictatorship. Greek Cyprus is a member of EU, a flourished, developed country.

Lebanese factions have different visions and want different things. Therefore, they will never unite in one state and one nation. Bosnia was divided in 1995 into 3 regions, but the case with Lebanon is more complicated. In Lebanon, there are more than 3 communities that will claim autonomy, at least the druze, the maronitesn (maybe combined wiht other christians), sunnis and shias will have to divide this small country into 4 regions and one confederate city; Beirut.

Belgium is another (much more civizilied) example of confederalism. Canada is another, Switzerland...etc...

Its better to live alone rather than bicker with each other endlessly.

other than my full opposition for this vision (for many, many, many reasons) it's demographically impossible.
what do you want to do with the shiites of jbeil, the christians of the south, the christians of aley, of baalbek, of aakar... the muslims of zahle....

Radovan · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 60

skinn wrote: Radovan wrote: Yes Lebanon should be partitioned. It was a mistake that Lebanese regions already divided by famous demarkation lines did not embrace confederalism.

Look at Cyprus...the final solution was partition. Muslim turks remain in the north united with their "turk brothers of Turkey" and live in poverty and military dictatorship. Greek Cyprus is a member of EU, a flourished, developed country.

Lebanese factions have different visions and want different things. Therefore, they will never unite in one state and one nation. Bosnia was divided in 1995 into 3 regions, but the case with Lebanon is more complicated. In Lebanon, there are more than 3 communities that will claim autonomy, at least the druze, the maronitesn (maybe combined wiht other christians), sunnis and shias will have to divide this small country into 4 regions and one confederate city; Beirut.

Belgium is another (much more civizilied) example of confederalism. Canada is another, Switzerland...etc...

Its better to live alone rather than bicker with each other endlessly.

other than my full opposition for this vision (for many, many, many reasons) it's demographically impossible.
what do you want to do with the shiites of jbeil, the christians of the south, the christians of aley, of baalbek, of aakar... the muslims of zahle....

2 things can be done:

1-Population exchange between different regions (shiites from jbeil go to the South and christians go to Jbeil)

OR

2-Those small minorities remain inside the regions where they are already present with their right to preserve their culture, identity and have full rights

in any confederate state, you can't have 100% pure regions.

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

Radovan wrote: skinn wrote: Radovan wrote: Yes Lebanon should be partitioned. It was a mistake that Lebanese regions already divided by famous demarkation lines did not embrace confederalism.

Look at Cyprus...the final solution was partition. Muslim turks remain in the north united with their "turk brothers of Turkey" and live in poverty and military dictatorship. Greek Cyprus is a member of EU, a flourished, developed country.

Lebanese factions have different visions and want different things. Therefore, they will never unite in one state and one nation. Bosnia was divided in 1995 into 3 regions, but the case with Lebanon is more complicated. In Lebanon, there are more than 3 communities that will claim autonomy, at least the druze, the maronitesn (maybe combined wiht other christians), sunnis and shias will have to divide this small country into 4 regions and one confederate city; Beirut.

Belgium is another (much more civizilied) example of confederalism. Canada is another, Switzerland...etc...

Its better to live alone rather than bicker with each other endlessly.

other than my full opposition for this vision (for many, many, many reasons) it's demographically impossible.
what do you want to do with the shiites of jbeil, the christians of the south, the christians of aley, of baalbek, of aakar... the muslims of zahle....

2 things can be done:

1-Population exchange between different regions (shiites from jbeil go to the South and christians go to Jbeil)

OR

2-Those small minorities remain inside the regions where they are already present with their right to preserve their culture, identity and have full rights

in any confederate state, you can't have 100% pure regions.

i never intended to

Yrkoon

cap'n queasy wrote: michel wrote: Split the damn country up just like they did with bosnia/herzegovinia.
We Christians are sick and tired of Moslems violence and killings.
50/50 with christians and moslems getting half of each, that's the solution to the problems of lebanon.

In 5 yrs they will surely see the advancement of christian lebanon in contrast to feudal 5th century theology moslem lebanon.
Moslem lebanon can then wage war against israel everyday if they wanted too, and let's see what will happen to them.
Culturally and spiritually we are not compatible with the moslems anyway.
Emille lahoud can live in the moslem side of town for all we care.

It's very interesting to see a true perspective of how many Lebanese feel rather than anti-semitic propaganda.

Oh Please.

You are extremely quick to assume that this poster isn't simply some guy sitting in front of his computer in the US who just decided to register on this board right in the middle of the recent Lebanon conflict and pretend to be a Lebanese person and therefore holding a "True Perspective!"

Any one of us could just as easily decide to come on tomorrow and register a fake account too. We could list Israel as our location. we could claim we're Jews and use an Israeli flag as our avatar. We'd then procede to *also* condemn our country's people for their heinus violence and bigotry.
:roll:

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

:ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

the sane voice wrote: :ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

i'm proud to say i'm from lebanon and i have atheist origin

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: :ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

i'm proud to say i'm from lebanon and i have atheist origin
i meant ethnic origin not religious one.

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

the sane voice wrote: skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: :ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

i'm proud to say i'm from lebanon and i have atheist origin
i meant ethnic origin not religious one.

are the jewish really an ethnicity? most are not even semites

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: :ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

i'm proud to say i'm from lebanon and i have atheist origin
i meant ethnic origin not religious one.

are the jewish really an ethnicity? most are not even semites
based on what you say that?

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

the sane voice wrote: skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: skinn wrote: the sane voice wrote: :ot:
im proud to say im from israel and i have a jewish origin.

i'm proud to say i'm from lebanon and i have atheist origin
i meant ethnic origin not religious one.

are the jewish really an ethnicity? most are not even semites
based on what you say that?

ethiopian jews look ethiopians, russian jews look russian, moroccan jews look moroccan.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7750 Location: Petah Tikva

It doesnt matter what you try and view an ethnicity as, if a group of several million people define themselves as under not only the same flag of religion but as the same people, on what authority are you to say they arent one?

skinn · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 425 Location: beirut

superskippy wrote: It doesnt matter what you try and view an ethnicity as, if a group of several million people define themselves as under not only the same flag of religion but as the same people, on what authority are you to say they arent one?

i never said the arn't, being the same people is a matter of choise and culture, jews can consider themselves as the same people, and i consider myself with the whole world as the same people.
But i was arguing a detail that jews are not the same ethnicity (witch does not mean they are not the same people) basing my argument on what i stated above.

Do you really bieleve jews are an ethnicity ? man lebanese are far from being an ethnicity (while we are mostly semites, contrarely to the jews)

Radovan · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 60

skinn wrote: superskippy wrote: It doesnt matter what you try and view an ethnicity as, if a group of several million people define themselves as under not only the same flag of religion but as the same people, on what authority are you to say they arent one?

i never said the arn't, being the same people is a matter of choise and culture, jews can consider themselves as the same people, and i consider myself with the whole world as the same people.
But i was arguing a detail that jews are not the same ethnicity (witch does not mean they are not the same people) basing my argument on what i stated above.

Do you really bieleve jews are an ethnicity ? man lebanese are far from being an ethnicity (while we are mostly semites, contrarely to the jews)

Skinn.."lebanese" is not an ethnicity either. I say our main problem is this..and the main solution can be confederate state with one army, federal government, and various regions with local mini-governments.

I can't live with hizbulla war-mongerinhg ideology and its "martyrdom" and "dignity" BS stuff...and it will continue to see me an Israel-loving chap, if I oppose this shiite way of taking the country hostage and dominating...

Federalism is the way, otherwise we will continue to bicker 100 years.

Seapearl · Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:29 am Post subject:

Radovan wrote: Yes Lebanon should be partitioned. It was a mistake that Lebanese regions already divided by famous demarkation lines did not embrace confederalism.

Look at Cyprus...the final solution was partition. Muslim turks remain in the north united with their "turk brothers of Turkey" and live in poverty and military dictatorship. Greek Cyprus is a member of EU, a flourished, developed country.

Lebanese factions have different visions and want different things. Therefore, they will never unite in one state and one nation. Bosnia was divided in 1995 into 3 regions, but the case with Lebanon is more complicated. In Lebanon, there are more than 3 communities that will claim autonomy, at least the druze, the maronitesn (maybe combined wiht other christians), sunnis and shias will have to divide this small country into 4 regions and one confederate city; Beirut.

Belgium is another (much more civizilied) example of confederalism. Canada is another, Switzerland...etc...

Its better to live alone rather than bicker with each other endlessly.

Final solution????? Did I miss something? There hasn't been a partition on the island, there isn't even a state at the north of the island recognised by other states or by international law....There's a UNSC resolution saying that Turkey has to retreat from Cyprus....Aw and the Turkish Cypriots wanted a united state with Greek Cypriots based on the Annan Plan...Both sides want a united island but based on a plan that is profitable to both. As far as Turkey is concerned, I don't know if u've heard about the latest report on its progress towards european accession....Well, yes Turkey has to recognise Cyprus and implement the UNSC resolution......

About Lebanon.......u must be joking!

ALi* · Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 427 Location: Beirut

lebanon is a country for all its people....
now if u can believe that... get over it :D:
3 main religions and over 18 sects live in lebanon peacefully amoung eachothers....
it is a one of a kind country and btw im not surprised u can not understand it....

the sane voice · Joined: 07 Sep 2006 Posts: 2512

ALi* wrote: lebanon is a country for all its people....
now if u can believe that... get over it :D:
3 main religions and over 18 sects live in lebanon peacefully amoung eachothers....
it is a one of a kind country and btw im not surprised u can not understand it....
ther are 3 main religions and number of sects in israel to(like druz).
but you want to destroy israel because its conquered palestine.

Seapearl · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:24 am Post subject:

ALi* wrote: lebanon is a country for all its people....
now if u can believe that... get over it :D:
3 main religions and over 18 sects live in lebanon peacefully amoung eachothers....
it is a one of a kind country and btw im not surprised u can not understand it....

I fully understand and agree...Partition of the lebanese state is sth inconceivable, it would have really negative effects on the region. Even if some people want to ignore reality...a lebanese state (organisation, administration, legal system, common experience, a specific framework) with all that a state entails is much better than several weak new born unstable small states arguing over division matters etc.....Some tend to accuse Lebanon ignoring a simple fact.....let me ask: how many times during the last 50 years was under attack....with infrastructure destroyed, people killed....A state in order to function needs to be able to progress, to pursue its own welfare....Before accusing the lebanese state, consider first its difficult past.

Seapearl · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:45 am Post subject:

Radovan wrote: skinn wrote: superskippy wrote: It doesnt matter what you try and view an ethnicity as, if a group of several million people define themselves as under not only the same flag of religion but as the same people, on what authority are you to say they arent one?

i never said the arn't, being the same people is a matter of choise and culture, jews can consider themselves as the same people, and i consider myself with the whole world as the same people.
But i was arguing a detail that jews are not the same ethnicity (witch does not mean they are not the same people) basing my argument on what i stated above.

Do you really bieleve jews are an ethnicity ? man lebanese are far from being an ethnicity (while we are mostly semites, contrarely to the jews)

Skinn.."lebanese" is not an ethnicity either. I say our main problem is this..and the main solution can be confederate state with one army, federal government, and various regions with local mini-governments.

I can't live with hizbulla war-mongerinhg ideology and its "martyrdom" and "dignity" BS stuff...and it will continue to see me an Israel-loving chap, if I oppose this shiite way of taking the country hostage and dominating...

Federalism is the way, otherwise we will continue to bicker 100 years.

Speaking about ethnicity in the 21st century is a bit funny....especially in a region such as the Mid East....where there hasn't been a normal and gradual creation of the nation state but the creation of states as a result of de-colonisation process....However, I believe that Lebanon has a long history that people living within its borders can relate to....Moreover, lebanese people either Muslims or Christians still feel lebanese.....There's a specific identity reflected in much more than just history, religion, way of life...

In any case, Lebanese people should be the ones to decide with freel will and based on their own aspirations for the future, noone could impose on them the dissolution of their state or the transition to a federal and even worse to a confederal state.