Political Crossfire Forums

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5216244.stm

I've posted this because I've just heard one of those lines that sum up 21st century Britain. In an interview with Radio 4, the Scotland Stonewall spokesman said:

"One of the main duties of a modern fire service is to engage with different communities."

This is rubbish. The job of the fire service is to fight fires and to effect rescues. The fire service is not the same as the police service - fire fighters do no fight fires by consent.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject:

Hmm, I wonder what my grandad would have made of this? What were the reasons for disobeying orders like this? Stonewall is talking out of their arses, as usual, but in an organisation like the Fire Brigade, you should expect to be disciplined for disobeying an order from a superior unless it is a dangerous or illegal one.....

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

thundertaker wrote: Hmm, I wonder what my grandad would have made of this? What were the reasons for disobeying orders like this? Stonewall is talking out of their arses, as usual, but in an organisation like the Fire Brigade, you should expect to be disciplined for disobeying an order from a superior unless it is a dangerous or illegal one.....

I quite agree - they should be disciplined for disobeying a lawful order.

However, if I was in a burning building I wouldn't be asking the guy breaking down the door whether he believed in the politics of inclusion.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject:

DSwain wrote:

I quite agree - they should be disciplined for disobeying a lawful order.

However, if I was in a burning building I wouldn't be asking the guy breaking down the door whether he believed in the politics of inclusion.

That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

thundertaker wrote: That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......
A disgusting conclusion drawn from a flawed premise. Racism makes you brave? Any stats or figures on that? Racism is fear, fear of the different, are you saying people who are fearful are brave? Utter rubbish.

Ssushi · Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 6242

It would look a bit strange; a gay prime festival and a group of men in firemens uniforms... I think they'd get some unwanted attention... :lol:

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote: That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......
A disgusting conclusion drawn from a flawed premise. Racism makes you brave? Any stats or figures on that? Racism is fear, fear of the different, are you saying people who are fearful are brave? Utter rubbish.

If you're discussing respect then please have the modicum of respect when responding to someone detailing the behaviour of his grandfather.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2540

Ssushi wrote: It would look a bit strange; a gay prime festival and a group of men in firemens uniforms... I think they'd get some unwanted attention... :lol:

Im guessing thats why they don't want to do it, it seems a bit weird to have fire saftey tips at a gay pride march.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

mendosan wrote: Ssushi wrote: It would look a bit strange; a gay prime festival and a group of men in firemens uniforms... I think they'd get some unwanted attention... :lol:

Im guessing thats why they don't want to do it, it seems a bit weird to have fire saftey tips at a gay pride march.

Dunno - "Disco Inferno" can get pretty darned hot

thundertaker · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject:

Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote: That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......
A disgusting conclusion drawn from a flawed premise. Racism makes you brave? Any stats or figures on that? Racism is fear, fear of the different, are you saying people who are fearful are brave? Utter rubbish.

I didn't say he was racist, you ****. I said he wasn't PC. That means he wasn't averse to using terms such as 'paki', 'poofter' etc. Being a man of his generation. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have risked his life to save theirs if it was in danger, whereas many others who place a such a premium on words and phrases wouldn't risk their precious, ciabbatta-**** arses. He actually used to cry when he saw reports on the news about children in the third world (non-white) caught up in disasters, yet others would have judged his attitude entirely on his use of phraseology.
Being PC doesn't mean you aren't racist. It means you've learned to cover up your prejudices behind a facade of newspeak bulls**t. I know of several people who talk the talk when it comes to PC, but their actual attitudes are a lot more racist than my grandad's ever was, they were never prepared to treat people in minority groups as equals, and often adopted a hypocritical and patronising attitude towards them....

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

thundertaker wrote: Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote: That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......
A disgusting conclusion drawn from a flawed premise. Racism makes you brave? Any stats or figures on that? Racism is fear, fear of the different, are you saying people who are fearful are brave? Utter rubbish.

I didn't say he was racist, you ****. I said he wasn't PC. That means he wasn't averse to using terms such as 'paki', 'poofter' etc. Being a man of his generation. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have risked his life to save theirs if it was in danger, whereas many others who place a such a premium on words and phrases wouldn't risk their precious, ciabbatta-**** arses. He actually used to cry when he saw reports on the news about children in the third world (non-white) caught up in disasters, yet others would have judged his attitude entirely on his use of phraseology.
Being PC doesn't mean you aren't racist. It means you've learned to cover up your prejudices behind a facade of newspeak bulls**t. I know of several people who talk the talk when it comes to PC, but their actual attitudes are a lot more racist than my grandad's ever was, they were never prepared to treat people in minority groups as equals, and often adopted a hypocritical and patronising attitude towards them....
All those terms you said are derogatory, meant to demean. Being married to an ethnic woman I see it all the time. White british folk saying we can't have any more pakis in the country, 'oh I don't mean you dear, your different'. It's racism and predjudice pure and simple. Wheres the respect for them? Whenever terms like that are used its to dehumanise those who are different so you can apply different values to them.

thundertaker · Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:

Originally, calling some from pakistan a 'paki' was no different to calling an american a 'yank' or a Briton a 'Brit'. It was simply shorthand. Political correctness has now contorted this word so that it's meaning is offensive. He probably did not mean it in a deliberately offensive way, but he wasn't going to change the way he spoke just because the same idiots who tried to ban the use of the word 'blackboard' had deemed the use of the phrase a speechcrime....

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote: Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote: That's something that has always amused me about PC people. My grandad wasn't the most PC person on the planet when refering to minorities, but he would have risked his life to drag them out of a burning building, whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards, and PC is the language of cowardice......
A disgusting conclusion drawn from a flawed premise. Racism makes you brave? Any stats or figures on that? Racism is fear, fear of the different, are you saying people who are fearful are brave? Utter rubbish.

I didn't say he was racist, you ****. I said he wasn't PC. That means he wasn't averse to using terms such as 'paki', 'poofter' etc. Being a man of his generation. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have risked his life to save theirs if it was in danger, whereas many others who place a such a premium on words and phrases wouldn't risk their precious, ciabbatta-**** arses. He actually used to cry when he saw reports on the news about children in the third world (non-white) caught up in disasters, yet others would have judged his attitude entirely on his use of phraseology.
Being PC doesn't mean you aren't racist. It means you've learned to cover up your prejudices behind a facade of newspeak bulls**t. I know of several people who talk the talk when it comes to PC, but their actual attitudes are a lot more racist than my grandad's ever was, they were never prepared to treat people in minority groups as equals, and often adopted a hypocritical and patronising attitude towards them....
All those terms you said are derogatory, meant to demean. Being married to an ethnic woman I see it all the time. White british folk saying we can't have any more pakis in the country, 'oh I don't mean you dear, your different'. It's racism and predjudice pure and simple. Wheres the respect for them? Whenever terms like that are used its to dehumanise those who are different so you can apply different values to them.

1) Firstly you didn't even have the class to offer any sort of apology for insulting a man's grandfather - bad form, that.

2) Thunder didn't use any sort of insulting or demeaning language in his first post. I might add, not did he in his second post. The examples he drew were of a generational issue - that men such as his (and my) grandfather would have used different words than we use today.

3) I've always believed in judging people on their actions first and foremost as talk is pretty cheap. By the sounds of it, Thunder's grandfather saw more danger in one week than most people here (thankfully) will endure in a lifetime. Not the sort of man to discriminate among those he rescued. Or perhaps being brave and good at such a job isn't adequate today - maybe we want our heroes to attend inclusivity workshops?

4) Unless the Language Police is really holding sway in this country, then words such as 'Paki' - which I would never use - are still perfectly acceptable if of dubious taste. It's certainly not an example of dehumanisation. PC attitudes that dictate to people not only what they do but what they say and even what they seem to think are truly guilty of removing from people the mantle of being human beings.

5) Finally, please apologise for calling the man's grandfather a racist.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

[quote="DSwain"][quote="Selfish_Meme"] thundertaker wrote:
1) Firstly you didn't even have the class to offer any sort of apology for insulting a man's grandfather - bad form, that.

2) Thunder didn't use any sort of insulting or demeaning language in his first post. I might add, not did he in his second post. The examples he drew were of a generational issue - that men such as his (and my) grandfather would have used different words than we use today.

3) I've always believed in judging people on their actions first and foremost as talk is pretty cheap. By the sounds of it, Thunder's grandfather saw more danger in one week than most people here (thankfully) will endure in a lifetime. Not the sort of man to discriminate among those he rescued. Or perhaps being brave and good at such a job isn't adequate today - maybe we want our heroes to attend inclusivity workshops?

4) Unless the Language Police is really holding sway in this country, then words such as 'Paki' - which I would never use - are still perfectly acceptable if of dubious taste. It's certainly not an example of dehumanisation. PC attitudes that dictate to people not only what they do but what they say and even what they seem to think are truly guilty of removing from people the mantle of being human beings.

5) Finally, please apologise for calling the man's grandfather a racist.
1. Your first and fifth points are the same, he used the word 'poofter' which certainly is derogatroy and I would guess that the firefighters who did refuse to hand out pamphlets at the gay pride parade use similar language.

2. The generational issue was that people were racist, and saw nothing wrong with it.

3. He may have been the best firefighter in Britain, but that does not excuse base attitudes. When doing a job, you can't show favouratism, as the scottish firefighters did. Doing your job doesn't mean however in your head that all the different races and genders and weirdness aren't caterorgised on a sliding scale of which insults you most.

4. So by not calling someone a 'paki' I am dehumanising them? I can see he is your friend, at least try and be objective.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

[quote="Selfish_Meme"][quote="DSwain"] Selfish_Meme wrote: thundertaker wrote:
1) Firstly you didn't even have the class to offer any sort of apology for insulting a man's grandfather - bad form, that.

2) Thunder didn't use any sort of insulting or demeaning language in his first post. I might add, not did he in his second post. The examples he drew were of a generational issue - that men such as his (and my) grandfather would have used different words than we use today.

3) I've always believed in judging people on their actions first and foremost as talk is pretty cheap. By the sounds of it, Thunder's grandfather saw more danger in one week than most people here (thankfully) will endure in a lifetime. Not the sort of man to discriminate among those he rescued. Or perhaps being brave and good at such a job isn't adequate today - maybe we want our heroes to attend inclusivity workshops?

4) Unless the Language Police is really holding sway in this country, then words such as 'Paki' - which I would never use - are still perfectly acceptable if of dubious taste. It's certainly not an example of dehumanisation. PC attitudes that dictate to people not only what they do but what they say and even what they seem to think are truly guilty of removing from people the mantle of being human beings.

5) Finally, please apologise for calling the man's grandfather a racist.
1. Your first and fifth points are the same, he used the word 'poofter' which certainly is derogatroy and I would guess that the firefighters who did refuse to hand out pamphlets at the gay pride parade use similar language.

2. The generational issue was that people were racist, and saw nothing wrong with it.

3. He may have been the best firefighter in Britain, but that does not excuse base attitudes. When doing a job, you can't show favouratism, as the scottish firefighters did. Doing your job doesn't mean however in your head that all the different races and genders and weirdness aren't caterorgised on a sliding scale of which insults you most.

4. So by not calling someone a 'paki' I am dehumanising them? I can see he is your friend, at least try and be objective.

1& 5 - Well done for spotting that I'd repeated the same point twice - top marks - it was deliberate BTW in case you hadn't realised. You've insulted the memory of someone's grandfather and you haven't had the class to apologise. And you still haven't.

2 - It's a generational issue and not that such older people are necessarily racist. Do you have grandparents?

3 - As long as base attitudes do not interfere with your job, then there is no problem. The Scottish firefighters should be disciplined if they disobeyed a lawful order - not because there is a suspicion that they are homophobic.

4 - Telling people what they can and can't say and what they can and can't think is dehumanising. Have you read George Orwell? In geopolitics we speak of 'Indopak' - is that dehumanising and racist? BTW, I am being objective - Thundertaker is no especial friend of mine but even if he was my worse enemy I'd still take someone like you to task. However from your posts I'd suggest that you are not the person to be accusing others of being subjective.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

DSwain wrote: 1& 5 - Well done for spotting that I'd repeated the same point twice - top marks - it was deliberate BTW in case you hadn't realised. You've insulted the memory of someone's grandfather and you haven't had the class to apologise. And you still haven't.

2 - It's a generational issue and not that such older people are necessarily racist. Do you have grandparents?

3 - As long as base attitudes do not interfere with your job, then there is no problem. The Scottish firefighters should be disciplined if they disobeyed a lawful order - not because there is a suspicion that they are homophobic.

4 - Telling people what they can and can't say and what they can and can't think is dehumanising. Have you read George Orwell? In geopolitics we speak of 'Indopak' - is that dehumanising and racist? BTW, I am being objective - Thundertaker is no especial friend of mine but even if he was my worse enemy I'd still take someone like you to task. However from your posts I'd suggest that you are not the person to be accusing others of being subjective.

You want me to apologise for saying something I think? Sorry but my opinion was that he was racist. Why should I apologise for that? Thunder was the one who held up his Grandfather as a paragon for non PC'ism. If he didn't want his attitudes investigated he should have used a different person.

Yes my grandparents where racist in a way that typified their generation. They don't even really realise they are being racist. Usually it takes a short sharp shock to make them realise.

Both of you have now attacked me personally for my opinion. This is supposed to be a place of discussion not name calling or fighting, just remember that.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Selfish_Meme wrote: DSwain wrote: 1& 5 - Well done for spotting that I'd repeated the same point twice - top marks - it was deliberate BTW in case you hadn't realised. You've insulted the memory of someone's grandfather and you haven't had the class to apologise. And you still haven't.

2 - It's a generational issue and not that such older people are necessarily racist. Do you have grandparents?

3 - As long as base attitudes do not interfere with your job, then there is no problem. The Scottish firefighters should be disciplined if they disobeyed a lawful order - not because there is a suspicion that they are homophobic.

4 - Telling people what they can and can't say and what they can and can't think is dehumanising. Have you read George Orwell? In geopolitics we speak of 'Indopak' - is that dehumanising and racist? BTW, I am being objective - Thundertaker is no especial friend of mine but even if he was my worse enemy I'd still take someone like you to task. However from your posts I'd suggest that you are not the person to be accusing others of being subjective.

You want me to apologise for saying something I think? Sorry but my opinion was that he was racist. Why should I apologise for that? Thunder was the one who held up his Grandfather as a paragon for non PC'ism. If he didn't want his attitudes investigated he should have used a different person.

Yes my grandparents where racist in a way that typified their generation. They don't even really realise they are being racist. Usually it takes a short sharp shock to make them realise.

Both of you have now attacked me personally for my opinion. This is supposed to be a place of discussion not name calling or fighting, just remember that.

Oh crumbs - I didn't realise that name calling hurt you so much (though I can't find any example of where I've called you a 'name' - still, long time since I've been at school, I'm clearly out of practice).

I humbly and sincerely apologise if I've caused you any offence whatsoever in having the temerity to question your opinion. I'm equally very sorry if I've upset you or hurt you therein.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

DSwain wrote: Oh crumbs - I didn't realise that name calling hurt you so much (though I can't find any example of where I've called you a 'name' - still, long time since I've been at school, I'm clearly out of practice).

I humbly and sincerely apologise if I've caused you any offence whatsoever in having the temerity to question your opinion. I'm equally very sorry if I've upset you or hurt you therein.

I question his opinion, you question mine, but somehow I am at fault? Well whatever you think is fine, I may question it, or try and expose its underpinings, but I respect your right to think it.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Selfish_Meme wrote: DSwain wrote: Oh crumbs - I didn't realise that name calling hurt you so much (though I can't find any example of where I've called you a 'name' - still, long time since I've been at school, I'm clearly out of practice).

I humbly and sincerely apologise if I've caused you any offence whatsoever in having the temerity to question your opinion. I'm equally very sorry if I've upset you or hurt you therein.

I question his opinion, you question mine, but somehow I am at fault? Well whatever you think is fine, I may question it, or try and expose its underpinings, but I respect your right to think it.

You have insulted his family, he hasn't insulted yours - you had the opportunity to apologise like a man and you chose not to. You made it personal, not him. There lies the fault and it's yours.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

DSwain wrote: You have insulted his family, he hasn't insulted yours - you had the opportunity to apologise like a man and you chose not to. You made it personal, not him. There lies the fault and it's yours.
So because he is his Grandfather, he is beyond criticism. Maybe Hitler should have had a kid, then we would have had to leave him alone. He brought his Grandfather into it not me. His Grandfather was irrelevant to the discussion, unless he made him relevant.

Thundertaker wrote: PC is the language of cowardice

Selfish_Meme wrote: A disgusting conclusion

Thundertaker wrote: whereas others, who no doubt would have seen themselves as his superior as a human being for their greater 'cultural awareness' would have stood around wringing their hands at how terrible it was for the people trapped inside. Because at the end of the day, most of them are cowards,

Selfish_Meme wrote: a flawed premise

Wikipedia wrote: Political correctness (also politically correct, P.C. or PC) is a term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to the racial, cultural, or other identity groups being described.

phrases.org.uk wrote: Politically Correct
Meaning

Description of the practice of conforming to liberal opinion which avoids language or actions which might cause offence to social minorities.
Being non-PC is to insult others, its not just classification as you would try to have us believe. It is to demean and dehumanise and discriminate. So shove that in his Grandfathers pipe and smoke it.