Political Crossfire Forums

[Duchifas]

Pretty interesting piece:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

Who is the "Green Helmet?"

[Nico]

Needs an opinion ;)

[Duchifas]

Nico wrote: Needs an opinion ;)

Ok. In my opinion, as evident from this piece, the mainstream media cannot be trusted for anything. Their reward was well earned:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21885_AP_Rewards_Qana_Photographers&only

[ukgirl]

I do agree the media are very bias against Israel.

However, there is no denying, Israel made a huge tragic mistake and many innocent people died.

There is no justification for it. It was a mistake and I only hope the citizens of Israel insist on a full inquiry to ensure nothing of this nature ever happens again.

[cap'n queasy]

The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

[MoscowMatt]

cap'n queasy wrote: The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

Exactly!!!

Also we can mull over what happened and demand enquiries but the simple fact remains on dropping that bomb the pilot had no idea that the building was full of civilians. Until technology is devloped to allow pilots to see through buildings then this sort of event will tragically continue to happen, in any conflict not just this one.

The other simple fact that some need to remind themselves of is that Hezbollah started all this mess so they alone are responsible for all this suffering.

[ukgirl]

cap'n queasy wrote: The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

Yes I agree, but only to a point.

No one supports Israel more than me as you will find out in due time, but by supporting them, I mean criticising things that are wrong.

It is wrong for innocent people to die regardless of what religion or citizenship they hold, due to a very careless mistake.

[X-Shocker]

ukgirl wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

Yes I agree, but only to a point.

No one supports Israel more than me as you will find out in due time, but by supporting them, I mean criticising things that are wrong.

It is wrong for innocent people to die regardless of what religion or citizenship they hold, due to a very careless mistake.

But, you are forgetting that this is war. In war, people die, innocent or not.

In this particular situation, you should not blame the person who fires the shot that took out hostility and innocent by-standers, but blame the hostile individuals who attacks from among the innocence.

[cap'n queasy]

ukgirl wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

Yes I agree, but only to a point.

No one supports Israel more than me as you will find out in due time, but by supporting them, I mean criticising things that are wrong.

It is wrong for innocent people to die regardless of what religion or citizenship they hold, due to a very careless mistake.

Forcing people to stay in an area that you plan to launch missiles from so they will be killed by the return fire is not careless, nor is it a mistake.

[ukgirl]

Quote: But, you are forgetting that this is war. In war, people die, innocent or not.

In this particular situation, you should not blame the person who fires the shot that took out hostility and innocent by-standers, but blame the hostile individuals who attacks from among the innocence.

I am saddened and disappointed that the IAF bombed this building where innocent people died.

There are enough accusations around the globe of Israel being disproportionate, Israel over-reacting blah blah blah, that to become so hard-core Israel can do no wrong, is actually dangerous for Israel. No country no matter how great are perfect and Israel is no exception.


Yes Israel can do wrong and there is nothing wrong in pointing that out.

Too many people died here and I want questions answered.

[X-Shocker]

ukgirl wrote: Quote: But, you are forgetting that this is war. In war, people die, innocent or not.

In this particular situation, you should not blame the person who fires the shot that took out hostility and innocent by-standers, but blame the hostile individuals who attacks from among the innocence.

I am saddened and disappointed that the IAF bombed this building where innocent people died.

There are enough accusations around the globe of Israel being disproportionate, Israel over-reacting blah blah blah, that to become so hard-core Israel can do no wrong, is actually dangerous for Israel. No country no matter how great are perfect and Israel is no exception.


Yes Israel can do wrong and there is nothing wrong in pointing that out.

Too many people died here and I want questions answered.

Casualties of war. By-product of something good. Side-effect of a good drug. No matter what you call it, it is what it is, casualties of war. Cry me a river. If the Lebonanese are willing to shelter Hezbullah, "children" are going to die.

Notice the quotation marks around the word, children. In war, there is no children, no innocence, and no civillians. War is not a place for bias medias.

[Plato & Socrates]

cap'n queasy wrote: ukgirl wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: The only thing that is going to ensure that nothing like this happens again is for the people who attack Israel and then hide among civilians to either stop doing this or if they are stopped from doing it by force.

Yes I agree, but only to a point.

No one supports Israel more than me as you will find out in due time, but by supporting them, I mean criticising things that are wrong.

It is wrong for innocent people to die regardless of what religion or citizenship they hold, due to a very careless mistake.

Forcing people to stay in an area that you plan to launch missiles from so they will be killed by the return fire is not careless, nor is it a mistake.

This is BS logic. So if Hizbollah was to say "All the people of Northern Israel up to Tel_Aviv, leave your homes if you dont want the possibility of missiles to land on your head" then thats ok is it? Why should any civilian wish to leave there home, when they have nothing to do with this war? Kill Hizbollah not the civies.

This Israel tactic is only a fews steps removed from killing all males from the age of 13, because they are of fighting age.

[X-Shocker]

Plato & Socrates wrote:

This is BS logic. So if Hizbollah was to say "All the people of Northern Israel up to Tel_Aviv, leave your homes if you dont want the possibility of missiles to land on your head" then thats ok is it? Why should any civilian wish to leave there home, when they have nothing to do with this war? Kill Hizbollah not the civies.

This Israel tactic is only a fews steps removed from killing all males from the age of 13, because they are of fighting age.

How do you kill Hezbullah without killing the civies? Think about it before you answer, please.

BTW, there is no "smart"bomb as of now. It would be cool to have a bomb which will only kill combatants: bomb explodes in a crowded room and everyone is untouched but the terrorist. WOW... And the room is undamaged, too.

[Plato & Socrates]

X-Shocker wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:

This is BS logic. So if Hizbollah was to say "All the people of Northern Israel up to Tel_Aviv, leave your homes if you dont want the possibility of missiles to land on your head" then thats ok is it? Why should any civilian wish to leave there home, when they have nothing to do with this war? Kill Hizbollah not the civvies.

This Israel tactic is only a fews steps removed from killing all males from the age of 13, because they are of fighting age.

How do you kill Hezbullah without killing the civies? Think about it before you answer, please.

BTW, there is no "smart"bomb as of now. It would be cool to have a bomb which will only kill combatants: bomb explodes in a crowded room and everyone is untouched but the terrorist. WOW... And the room is undamaged, too.

If you wish to keep the moral high-ground, you fight Hizbollah like how the British fought the I.R.A or the Spanish ETA. Hizbollah is a large militia which operates amongst civilians. Killing civilians is a big no no. [
b]"The reason Hizbollah hide amongst them is just for that very reason"[/b] Who said it was going to be easy. The reason Israel kills so many innocent civilians is precisely so they can make it easier for there land armed forces,
ie; there soldiers. Hence why they world judges there morality accordingly.

Hizbollah want to make it a hard dirty war, to inflict as much damage on Israel as they can.
This tactic is plain to see. What Israel is doing, is taking the decision by saying "we ain't going to engage you like that, but to bomb you where you lay, if civilians are with you, then so be it"
That path is immoral to most of the world, but not according to Israel.

[thatisnotme]

Plato & Socrates wrote: X-Shocker wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:

This is BS logic. So if Hizbollah was to say "All the people of Northern Israel up to Tel_Aviv, leave your homes if you dont want the possibility of missiles to land on your head" then thats ok is it? Why should any civilian wish to leave there home, when they have nothing to do with this war? Kill Hizbollah not the civvies.

This Israel tactic is only a fews steps removed from killing all males from the age of 13, because they are of fighting age.

How do you kill Hezbullah without killing the civies? Think about it before you answer, please.

BTW, there is no "smart"bomb as of now. It would be cool to have a bomb which will only kill combatants: bomb explodes in a crowded room and everyone is untouched but the terrorist. WOW... And the room is undamaged, too.

If you wish to keep the moral high-ground, you fight Hizbollah like how the British fought the I.R.A or the Spanish ETA. Hizbollah is a large militia which operates amongst civilians. Killing civilians is a big no no. [
b]"The reason Hizbollah hide amongst them is just for that very reason"[/b] Who said it was going to be easy. The reason Israel kills so many innocent civilians is precisely so they can make it easier for there land armed forces,
ie; there soldiers. Hence why they world judges there morality accordingly.

Hizbollah want to make it a hard dirty war, to inflict as much damage on Israel as they can.
This tactic is plain to see. What Israel is doing, is taking the decision by saying "we ain't going to engage you like that, but to bomb you where you lay, if civilians are with you, then so be it"
That path is immoral to most of the world, but not according to Israel.

The Americans carpet-bombed Afghanistan after 9/11, no one questioned that and every country believed that the US was justified after 9/11. This is no different. Why now Israel is immoral? This double standard is pure hypocrisy.

[MoscowMatt]

Plato & Socrates wrote: X-Shocker wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote:

This is BS logic. So if Hizbollah was to say "All the people of Northern Israel up to Tel_Aviv, leave your homes if you dont want the possibility of missiles to land on your head" then thats ok is it? Why should any civilian wish to leave there home, when they have nothing to do with this war? Kill Hizbollah not the civvies.

This Israel tactic is only a fews steps removed from killing all males from the age of 13, because they are of fighting age.

How do you kill Hezbullah without killing the civies? Think about it before you answer, please.

BTW, there is no "smart"bomb as of now. It would be cool to have a bomb which will only kill combatants: bomb explodes in a crowded room and everyone is untouched but the terrorist. WOW... And the room is undamaged, too.

If you wish to keep the moral high-ground, you fight Hizbollah like how the British fought the I.R.A or the Spanish ETA. Hizbollah is a large militia which operates amongst civilians. Killing civilians is a big no no. [
b]"The reason Hizbollah hide amongst them is just for that very reason"[/b] Who said it was going to be easy. The reason Israel kills so many innocent civilians is precisely so they can make it easier for there land armed forces,
ie; there soldiers. Hence why they world judges there morality accordingly.

Hizbollah want to make it a hard dirty war, to inflict as much damage on Israel as they can.
This tactic is plain to see. What Israel is doing, is taking the decision by saying "we ain't going to engage you like that, but to bomb you where you lay, if civilians are with you, then so be it"
That path is immoral to most of the world, but not according to Israel.

Hezbollah not Israel place the civilians in the danger zone by deliberately operating in amongst them in cities. Why can;t Hezbollah just fight Israelies in the mountains which is equally as goof for defence but is well out the way of civilians? I'll tell you why because Hezbollah want civilian's to die as it is excellent propaganda.

[previsionary]

Quote: The Americans carpet-bombed Afghanistan after 9/11, no one questioned that and every country believed that the US was justified after 9/11. This is no different. Why now Israel is immoral? This double standard is pure hypocrisy.

Did the Americans occupy Afghan land?? NO
Did the Israelis occupy Lebanese land?? Yes

Do the Americans have Afghan prisoners prior to 911??NO
Do the Israelis have Lebanese prisoners prior to 7-12-06??Yes in the thousands

Did Taliban kill innocent civilians in the thousands in the US?? Yes indeed
Did Hezbollah kill innocent civilians at all prior to 7-12-06?? NO not at all

In other words you can say that the US was justified with their resons while Israel had little to no reasons. Yes Israel was immoral in their actions. Hezbollah was fighting in the south so leave it in the south.

[thatisnotme]

previsionary wrote: Quote: The Americans carpet-bombed Afghanistan after 9/11, no one questioned that and every country believed that the US was justified after 9/11. This is no different. Why now Israel is immoral? This double standard is pure hypocrisy.

Did the Americans occupy Afghan land?? NO
Did the Israelis occupy Lebanese land?? Yes

Do the Americans have Afghan prisoners prior to 911??NO
Do the Israelis have Lebanese prisoners prior to 7-12-06??Yes in the thousands

Did Taliban kill innocent civilians in the thousands in the US?? Yes indeed
Did Hezbollah kill innocent civilians at all prior to 7-12-06?? NO not at all

In other words you can say that the US was justified with their resons while Israel had little to no reasons. Yes Israel was immoral in their actions. Hezbollah was fighting in the south so leave it in the south.

Get your facts straightened.
- There are foreign troops in Afghanistan, which many see them as occupiers.
-Hezbollah had killed Israelis and was launching rockets prior to the kidnapping.
- The Afghanistan government then was protecting the terrorists (Al Qaeda)who were responsible for the 9/11 attack. The Lebanese government was protecting Hezbollah who were attacking Israel.

So the similarity is very striking, yet most agreed that the US was justified in attacking Afghanistan, in which thousands of civilians died. OTOH, less than a thousand Lebanese died, yet Israel is considered immoral???

[ukgirl]

Quote: Casualties of war. By-product of something good. Side-effect of a good drug. No matter what you call it, it is what it is, casualties of war. Cry me a river. If the Lebonanese are willing to shelter Hezbullah, "children" are going to die.


Look I believe Israel has every right to defend herself and trust me, I know who the bad guys are here.

My point being is that Israel messed up. You can twist it any way you want, but they mistakenly killed too many innocent people, even they have apologised for it.

Now I know they didn't do it on purpose. I know their moral standards are acutely superior to the terrorist scum, but that still doesn't make it right.

My mistake in the past has been to defend Israel much like all of you are,
even when she is clearly in the wrong.

It doesn't help her that you all defend her EVERY move. You all complain of double standards and you are right. Israel has to defend herself and no-one is happy unless she is at a disadvantage.

This is why it is imperative she is criticised when making errors. There is nothing shameful about her not being perfect.

I am from the UK and they most certainly are not perfect. I live in the USA and again, far from it and the same applies to Israel.

Quote: Notice the quotation marks around the word, children. In war, there is no children, no innocence, and no civillians. War is not a place for bias medias.


Yes I know all of that, but to really help Israel and stop the hate thrown at her, you have to be reasonable or backs will come up and the only one to really lose is Israel herself.

None of us want that, do we?

[Secondary Oak]

ukgirl wrote: This is why it is imperative she is criticised when making errors. There is nothing shameful about her not being perfect.
Of course Israel is not perfect, and it does make mistakes. Nobody says it's perfect. But - in my opinion - it's practically an angel (wings, halo and all) compared with the other side. And it makes conscious effort to try and reduce its mistakes.

I don't think any other western country would have behaved in a substantially different way in the same situation.