Political Crossfire Forums

[brian_in_idaho]

Obviously we have a great problem with Islamic terrorism and extremism in the world today. I pose the question to you, is the Islamic religion fundamentally evil, set on destroying all in it's path?

My opinion is that most religions, Islam included, can be a force for good in the world. However, all religions require an acceptance of their basic unproven and unprovable tenants and philosophy on faith. Once one has accepts faith over rational, questioning, independent thought, you are open to accepting anything that your leadership presents. I'm not attacking religion here, only pointing out the vulnerability that such a belief structure creates.

My belief is that most of the extremist followers of Islam are being manipulated by the religious leadership. Such leaders have a large population of potential followers, both in terms of acceptance of Islam, often a poor economy, and a culture that historically has not had a great deal of respect for life. I suspect that only a relatively small, but very visible percentage of Islamic religious leaders fall in this category

We have had similar situations in this country, in the past we had Richard Butler and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations) nurturing racial and religious hatred, we certainly have black religious leaders doing the same. In both cases though, these people, and their followers, are small in number. And Irv Rabine (spelling), formerly of the JDL is no example of moral leadership, nor is he a good reflection of the average Jew. In short, it isn't just Islam that has this problem.

It's possible the percentage of Muslims involved in extremist acts is not that large. When you are willing to commit terrorist acts, it doesn't take a large number to create havoc.

Thoughts?

Bri

[Secondary Oak]

brian_in_idaho wrote: Obviously we have a great problem with Islamic terrorism and extremism in the world today. I pose the question to you, is the Islamic religion fundamentally evil, set on destroying all in it's path?
Don't think so. But the Arab/Islamic culture would be considered by some evil - since unlike the western culture, it emphasizes the values of honor and hospitality but doesn't emphasis the values of equity, freedom and the sanctity of life, which the western culture stands for.

[TNBiologist]

Islam itself is not evil. It is no different than Judism or Christianity in that parts of the religion (example: slavery in old testiment bible) have extreme views. However for the most part Judism and Christianity have realized that these extreme parts are extreme and the religions now focus on the tenents of the religion that promte peace and understanding. Islam however still has a large portion of its following that believes in and promotes the extreme tenents of the religion (i.e. kill the infidel). I beleive this is in part because Jewish and Christian holy text are printed in languages the masses can read and also the areas dominated by Judism and Christianity have high literacy rates while the Islamic holy texts are still printed in arabic (for the most part) making it difficult or the layman to understand. Also some areas dominated by Islam have very low literacy rates, forcing people to rely on what they are told the religious text say and mean by clergy who may have a warped view.

[Daisy]

no islam isn't evil at all,like in any religion there are extremes,but unfortunatly some people manipulate some truths to those extremes,making them doing this wrong.
but these extremes are so few in the arab world,the majority are the moderate type (like me).

[Zeeman]

There is nothing evil about Islam,what is wrong is that people use it to get the masses to support their agenda.Since that is one issue that can unite so many-that couldnt be united otherwise- it is abused,and as u know with religion people get over sensitive...

[X-Shocker]

brian_in_idaho wrote: Obviously we have a great problem with Islamic terrorism and extremism in the world today. I pose the question to you, is the Islamic religion fundamentally evil, set on destroying all in it's path?


In a way, it can be viewed as fundamentally evil because all infadels (sp?) must be killed.

Quote:
My opinion is that most religions, Islam included, can be a force for good in the world. However, all religions require an acceptance of their basic unproven and unprovable tenants and philosophy on faith. Once one has accepts faith over rational, questioning, independent thought, you are open to accepting anything that your leadership presents. I'm not attacking religion here, only pointing out the vulnerability that such a belief structure creates.

All religions came about a means of creating goodness.

Quote: My belief is that most of the extremist followers of Islam are being manipulated by the religious leadership. Such leaders have a large population of potential followers, both in terms of acceptance of Islam, often a poor economy, and a culture that historically has not had a great deal of respect for life. I suspect that only a relatively small, but very visible percentage of Islamic religious leaders fall in this category

Bri

That is why the US has separation of Church and State. All it takes is one crooked person at the helm and the whole country goes to sh!t-dom. Examples: Iran during the IOtoya(sp?). The middle ages during the reign of the Popes: pay to go to Heaven.

[thatisnotme]

Zeeman wrote: There is nothing evil about Islam,what is wrong is that people use it to get the masses to support their agenda.Since that is one issue that can unite so many-that couldnt be united otherwise- it is abused,and as u know with religion people get over sensitive...

This is like asking, was it Hitler that was dangerous, or was it nazism? The answer is both. Similarly, is Islam dangerous or is the people who believe in Islam? The answer is both. You cannot distinguish between the people and their actions which is based on some ideology.

[brian_in_idaho]

thatisnotme wrote: Zeeman wrote: There is nothing evil about Islam,what is wrong is that people use it to get the masses to support their agenda.Since that is one issue that can unite so many-that couldnt be united otherwise- it is abused,and as u know with religion people get over sensitive...

This is like asking, was it Hitler that was dangerous, or was it nazism? The answer is both. Similarly, is Islam dangerous or is the people who believe in Islam? The answer is both. You cannot distinguish between the people and their actions which is based on some ideology.

To me, that is the same as saying that Christianity is evil for what the bishops and popes did during the middle ages, or what Richard Butler did, utilizing Christianity to justify hatred of blacks and Jews. Or for that matter, saying that Judaism is evil if one leader uses it to justify an evil act.

I guess the question is does Islam as a religion really demand death to the infidels, or is this one statement, buried somewhere in the Koran, and perhaps taken out of context. Christian religious leaders have chosen to selectively quote the bible to justify all kinds of atrocities.

[thatisnotme]

brian_in_idaho wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Zeeman wrote: There is nothing evil about Islam,what is wrong is that people use it to get the masses to support their agenda.Since that is one issue that can unite so many-that couldnt be united otherwise- it is abused,and as u know with religion people get over sensitive...

This is like asking, was it Hitler that was dangerous, or was it nazism? The answer is both. Similarly, is Islam dangerous or is the people who believe in Islam? The answer is both. You cannot distinguish between the people and their actions which is based on some ideology.

To me, that is the same as saying that Christianity is evil for what the bishops and popes did during the middle ages, or what Richard Butler did, utilizing Christianity to justify hatred of blacks and Jews. Or for that matter, saying that Judaism is evil if one leader uses it to justify an evil act.

I guess the question is does Islam as a religion really demand death to the infidels, or is this one statement, buried somewhere in the Koran, and perhaps taken out of context. Christian religious leaders have chosen to selectively quote the bible to justify all kinds of atrocities.



Here are some of the sayings in the Quran -- mind you there are some pretty nasty stuff in the Bible, but this takes the cake:


3:85

Who so desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him.

8:12

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.

8:60

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies.

9:123

Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.

9:29

Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior"

9:5

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them

47:4

When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.

[maalox]

although i hate islam , i tell u objectively that it`s not evil , extremists turn everything into eveil

even budha extremists can turn budhism into eveil man

[thatisnotme]

maalox wrote: although i hate islam , i tell u objectively that it`s not evil , extremists turn everything into eveil

even budha extremists can turn budhism into eveil man

I agree on that. A sick mind doesn't need much to be encouraged to violence.Nevertheless, the Quran is a book full of sayings that clearly advocate violence. Reading it is like reading Mein Kampf. So it is hard not to blame this religion for the violence it generates. Ask Salman Rushdie.

[SpartanPhalanx]

Secondary Oak wrote: brian_in_idaho wrote: Obviously we have a great problem with Islamic terrorism and extremism in the world today. I pose the question to you, is the Islamic religion fundamentally evil, set on destroying all in it's path?
Don't think so. But the Arab/Islamic culture would be considered by some evil - since unlike the western culture, it emphasizes the values of honor and hospitality but doesn't emphasis the values of equity, freedom and the sanctity of life, which the western culture stands for.


Good Grief Oak....you can't be serious.

The Arab culture as you put it... does not emphasise the values of equity, freedom and the sanctity of life?

Says who?

America killed 2 million people in Vietnam during it's disastrous adventure there. Iraq? ... some estimates at over 100.000 deaths and counting.
Lebanon? The West Bank?....HOARDS of dead. Some combatants far more civilians.

Today on Capitol Hill Rumsfeld was roasted by McCain and a Senate committee because of the disaster in Iraq with no end in sight. I dare you to ask an Iraqi about America's "precious values" it has given the Iraqi people.



:td:

[superskippy]

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are all good and great at their core beliefs which in the end all preach kindess to your fellow man, do good deeds and live a good and righteous life, and acknowledge and have faith in god. There is no evil in that.

I wont get into a debate onto Arab culture or Western culture because it degenerates so very quickly.

[mr_happy]

There are bad people in every group, judging a group by its worst will never lead you anywhere. However, the problem with ISlam is its decentraliztion, which allows extremists to operate unmolested by moderates. What the Islamic people need to do is to stand up to the people bastardizing their religion. The Vatican already denounced Catholic terrorrists in Ireland, ISlam needs to do the same.

[augustus kafka]

of course islam is not evil. if i weren't such a bad person, i would have considered converting to islam.

[previsionary]

Quote: Don't think so. But the Arab/Islamic culture would be considered by some evil - since unlike the western culture, it emphasizes the values of honor and hospitality but doesn't emphasis the values of equity, freedom and the sanctity of life, which the western culture stands for.

Your saying they don't emphasize the value of equity of life??? Currently Hezbollah is considered as a resistance group to many. That should be considered just and fair on hezbollah's behalf because they are defending the Lebanese people in their own prespective, the Lebanese. In other words would you have planes flying over and risking hitting innocent civilians or someone going all out trying to defend your people? Not a very hard question to answer and the past is the past. Its not about "If Hezbollah didn't....." or "If Syria or Iran....".

Freedom??? 50 years ago the civil rights movement in the US and what about the Holocaust. You think that muslim women that wear the scarf thing on their head become degenerate. They choose to wear it. They have the same freedom to put it on as taking it off.

Give me an example of how the western culture emphasizes sanctity of life while muslims don't. Please don't use the example of suicide bombers, because it can be countered by the average teen suicide rate in the west.

[Secondary Oak]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: The Arab culture as you put it... does not emphasise the values of equity, freedom and the sanctity of life?

Says who?
Says me, obviously, that post was written by me. And I'm merely voicing my observations.

I don't say that life is meaningless in the Arab / Islamic culture, or that freedom is unimportant. But I do say the western culture puts a greater emphasis on them. Just like the Arab / Islamic culture puts a much greater emphasis on hospitality. The cultures are different, all cultures are... do you claim otherwise?

I consider the western culture far superior to the Arab / Islamic one, just like I consider the Arab / Islamic one far superior to, say, the Aztec culture. It's of course not surprising I prefer the western culture, since I belong to it and thus probably biased.
In any case, it doesn't mean I consider the Arab / Islamic culture evil, and it definitely doesn't mean I consider Islam evil.

previsionary wrote: Your saying they don't emphasize the value of equity of life???
No, I'm saying they emphasize it a lot less than the emphasis on it in the western culture.

[MoscowMatt]

brian_in_idaho wrote: Obviously we have a great problem with Islamic terrorism and extremism in the world today. I pose the question to you, is the Islamic religion fundamentally evil, set on destroying all in it's path?

My opinion is that most religions, Islam included, can be a force for good in the world. However, all religions require an acceptance of their basic unproven and unprovable tenants and philosophy on faith. Once one has accepts faith over rational, questioning, independent thought, you are open to accepting anything that your leadership presents. I'm not attacking religion here, only pointing out the vulnerability that such a belief structure creates.

My belief is that most of the extremist followers of Islam are being manipulated by the religious leadership. Such leaders have a large population of potential followers, both in terms of acceptance of Islam, often a poor economy, and a culture that historically has not had a great deal of respect for life. I suspect that only a relatively small, but very visible percentage of Islamic religious leaders fall in this category

We have had similar situations in this country, in the past we had Richard Butler and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations) nurturing racial and religious hatred, we certainly have black religious leaders doing the same. In both cases though, these people, and their followers, are small in number. And Irv Rabine (spelling), formerly of the JDL is no example of moral leadership, nor is he a good reflection of the average Jew. In short, it isn't just Islam that has this problem.

It's possible the percentage of Muslims involved in extremist acts is not that large. When you are willing to commit terrorist acts, it doesn't take a large number to create havoc.

Thoughts?

Bri

No Islam is not evil, but religion (not just Islam) attracts evil people who twist it's words to serve their own evil purpose.