Political Crossfire Forums

[whynot]

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world's major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power — and duty — to bring a resolution.

Below are charts of nine little-known statistics.


1-123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 705 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000




2-7,633 Israelis and 29,393 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000

3- The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO's.


4-Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

5-No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,279 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

6-0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000

7-The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%

8-60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements

[MoscowMatt]

whynot wrote: 5-No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,279 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.



Hmmm I recall some soldiers being kidnapped a few weeks ago that started all this mess. Perhaps youmight like to revise your ill informed comments?

[whynot]

i knew that you will try to find something here or there

but i will let only the numbers talk

[Duchifas]

whynot wrote: i knew that you will try to find something here or there

but i will let only the numbers talk

If we let only the numbers talk:

43,000 British civilians died in the German blitz bombing of England.

Quote: 43,000 civilians are estimated to have died during the campaign, with over 139,000 injured and around a million houses destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz#Consequences_of_the_Blitz


However, somewhere between 305,000 to 600,000 German civilians died from British/American carpet bombing of Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

Quote: Overall, Anglo-American bombing of German cities claimed between 305,000 and 600,000 civilian lives[33]. Whether these attacks hastened the end of the war is a controversial question.

If you let only the numbers talk, then the Brits were evil, and the Nazis were.....ten times less evil.


Numbers alone never tell the whole story. Why not also use your brain to think about the numbers, whynot?

[Zeeman]

When one side always claims to be the innocent victim,i think the numbers DO talk

[thatisnotme]

whynot wrote:

4-Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.



You forgot the most important thing: UN resolution 181 of 1947 which called upon two states -- one for the Jews, who accepted it and declared the state of Israel in 1948; and one for the Arabs who rejected and have been at war with Israel ever since.

Had the Arabs accepted UN resolution 181, today you would have two states living side by side in peace and prosperity. The Arabs by their consistent refusal are responsible for all the carnage that has taken place needlessly in the ME.

[Zeeman]

^^^ May i add to your observation that Israel isnt willing to let any of that territory go back to Palestinians even if it meant peace for everyone today.

[Duchifas]

Zeeman wrote: ^^^ May i add to your observation that Israel isnt willing to let any of that territory go back to Palestinians even if it meant peace for everyone today.

First of all, Israel has been perfectly willing. It withdrew from Gaza.

Second, there has been no peace whatsoever. One would logically think that as Israel gradually gave up more territory, there would gradually be more peace. Unfortunately, the reverse is observed. The more territory Arabs get, the more wild they get, and use their new territory to launch attacks against Israel.

[Duchifas]

Zeeman wrote: When one side always claims to be the innocent victim,i think the numbers DO talk

That's a wholly ridiculous and irrelevant observation. Yes, the Palestinians always claim to be the victim of "aggression," "occupation," "oppression," etc, you name it.

Yet, that does not prevent them from waging a terror war against Israel.

I fail to see how claims of innocence affect the numbers.

[theshield]

whynot wrote: 4-Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

Lets check it together.

Quote: Is it true that Israel is in violation of UN resolutions?

Israel MFA

Map of UN 181 Partition Plan, 1947

It is often claimed that Israel "is in violation of UN resolutions". Some anti-Israel websites complain about "66 UN resolutions Israel ignores". To respond requires a review of what UN resolutions have been passed on the subject of Israel and its neighbors, what is their actual content, and what have been the actions of all the parties involved, not just Israel.

In the 1940s, the United Nations was formed by the victors in World War II. The new body explicitly took over the existing agreements made by the League of Nations, including the British-administered Mandate for Palestine. When the war-exhausted British decided to abandon the Mandate in 1947, the UN General Assembly voted for a plan that would partition the 22% of the Mandate for Palestine that was west of the Jordan River into a Palestinian Jewish state and a Palestinian Arab state, each in a shape that attempted to encompass most of their respective populations. Jerusalem was left out, to be a separate internationally-administered area. The 78% of the Mandate for Palestine that was east of the Jordan River was left as the British had decided -- to be the Arab country of Jordan (partly shown on the map under its former name of Transjordan), with a majority population of Palestinian Arabs and no Jews allowed.

Notwithstanding the manifestly unfair nature of this division, against the Jews -- especially in light of the thousands of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who had nowhere to go but Palestine -- the representatives of the Jewish community accepted the division and declared the State of Israel within the UN-determined borders on May 15, 1948. Palestinian Arabs could have done the same and had a State of Palestine right then and there. But the Arab leadership rejected the plan, solely on the basis that they wanted no Jewish state at all. That is, it was not a dispute about the details of borders or any other issue. They rejected any Jewish presence in the region and went immediately to war to destroy the newborn Israel. The Arab actions were in defiance of the UN partition plan and all other international laws against aggression.

When the Arab war of aggression failed, armistice agreements (not peace treaties) were negotiated with UN help and the long, twilight, underground war of the Arab countries and the Palestinian Arabs against Israel began. Israel's borders were not permanent, internationally recognized limits but only lines where troops happened to be when the cease-fire was arranged. This fact made them hard to defend and allowed terrorist operations against Israel from day one. Jordan occupied the areas of the Mandate called Judea and Samaria, renaming the area "the West Bank". Egypt occupied the strip of coastal land called Gaza. These occupations were not internationally recognized, but were not condemned either. Palestinian Arabs did not object to occupation by Jordan and Egypt or demand a Palestinian Arab state.

UN Resolution 194 of November 12, 1948 dealt with the issues of the then-in-progress War of Independence. It set up an international Conciliation Commission to mediate between the parties and made provisions for the return or resettlement of refugees. The resolution says nothing solely about "Arab refugees" and clearly applies to both Arab and Jewish refugees of the Arab-instigated war. But Resolution 194 is only mentioned today when demanding rights for Arabs to return to Israel, something that is neither in the wording of Resolution 194 nor would be considered rational except in a different world, a world in which Jews could freely return to Arab lands and live there in peace. Those who demand compensation for Arab refugees have to also consider the loss of life, home, and property by hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees who were forced out of Arab countries in the same time period.

The pattern was established:

Israel is attacked.
Israel defends itself.
The UN or other international group steps in to end the violence, calling for both sides to take certain actions to resolve the situation.
Israel attempts to comply but the intransigence and non-compliance of Israel's enemies delays implementation.
Israel is blamed for failing to comply while the failures of Israel's enemies are ignored.
This pattern repeats over the decades: Sinai, 1967 war, 1973 war, Lebanon, and in 2002 with regard to Israeli actions in the territories, actions taken in reaction to a wave of homicide bombings in Israel.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 997 passed on November 2, 1956 in response to the Sinai Campaign, calls for all parties "to desist from raids across the [1949] armistice lines into neighbouring territory", specifically referring to the hundreds of fedayeen attacks carried out against Israel in the early 1950s. But even though Israel withdrew from Sinai as required, Egyptian violations of this provision continued through the years, eventually one of the causes leading to the 1967 Six Day War.

When Israel has been subject to a "UN Resolution" you first have to ask what type of resolution it was. Resolutions of the General Assembly are merely recommendations and many Security Council actions are too. There is no force of law to any UN resolution, and Israel cannot be accused of anything more than deciding that the resolution is not in Israel's national interest. Resolutions of the Security Council are of two types, falling under either:

Chapter VII, dealing with "Threats to Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Aggression", resolutions that require compliance by the subject nation and carry the threat of force that may be used to compel compliance, or


Chapter VI, dealing with "Pacific Resolution of Disputes", resolutions that are meant to be implemented through negotiation or other voluntary means.
The article by Dore Gold, "Baseless Comparisons: UN Security Council Resolutions on Iraq and Israel ", explains the difference between Chapter VI and Chapter VII resolutions of the UN and the fact that Israel has never been subject to a Chapter VII resolution.

The most famous example is UN Security Council Resolution 242 (UNSCR 242) -- the "land for peace" resolution passed after the Six Day War. Palestinian Arab advocates consistently maintain that Israel has to pull out of the West Bank based on 242, but UNSCR 242 doesn't say that. UNSCR 242 actually calls for a dual requirement, Israeli withdrawal coupled with:

"Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;"
Since there are no "secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force", Israel is under no obligation to withdraw. UNSCR 242 is a Chapter VI resolution calling for a negotiated settlement, not immediate action by Israel alone.

On March 30, 2002 in response to Israel's Operation Defensive Shield against terrorist bases and operatives in the territories, the UN passed UNSCR 1402. One line of that Resolution, "calls for the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian cities, including Ramallah" -- that is the line often used in verbal attacks on Israel. But another, equally valid line calls for "an immediate cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction." Why should Israel withdraw until the acts of the latter sentence have ceased, including provocation and incitement that continue among Palestinian Arabs at a fever pitch? This is especially true given that Israeli withdrawal would certainly increase the potential and opportunity for more acts of violence, terror, provocation, incitement and destruction. Israel has been very good on compliance when the entire resolution is taken into account, not just the sentence the anti-Israel advocate wants you to look at.

In response to accusations against Israel based on UN Resolutions, the question must be asked: "Exactly what UN Resolution is Israel violating?" It is certainly true that many of the UN Resolutions have not been implemented, but is Israel at fault? Does Israel have to implement its obligations before others implement theirs? Does Israel have to risk increased damage, death and destruction with no corresponding action on other requirements of the resolutions? And what about resolutions where Israel has complied? What have been the results? Resolutions 425/426 regarding Lebanon led to Israel's withdrawal in 2000 and Israel has been certified by the UN as being in full compliance. But attacks against Israel across that border continued and even escalated.

Despite the fact that Israel has been subject to a barrage of attacks by its enemies using the UN as a platform, resulting in many unwarranted resolutions of censure against Israel, Israel's actual record of compliance is quite good when all factors are taken into account.



http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_un_resolutions.php

[whynot]

Quote: 43,000 civilians are estimated to have died during the campaign, with over 139,000 injured and around a million houses destroyed.

i have said that anti arabs and anti muslims , and i knew that they a lot of in this forum , will search here and there arguments to justificate

how a non crazy man can compare between palestine people and hitler and nazis regime

how we can compare a people that search to live free in their own countries with a regime that attaqued the whole world.
i can only said absurde

[theshield]

whynot wrote: how we can compare a people that search to live free in their own countries with a regime that attaqued the whole world.
i can only said absurde

Israel is doing a great job taking over the world...

[thatisnotme]

Zeeman wrote: ^^^ May i add to your observation that Israel isnt willing to let any of that territory go back to Palestinians even if it meant peace for everyone today.

Israel has pulled from Gaza and Olmert was elected on the promise of disengagement from the WB, tho' this is unlikely to happen right now in the immediate future with what is going on. May I remind you that when Egypt recognized the state of Israel and made peace, the Sinai was returned. May I remind you that if and when Syria recognizes the state of Israel and makes peace with it, the Golan Heights will be returned.

[whynot]

Quote: May I remind you that when Egypt recognized the state of Israel and made peace, the Sinai was returned. May I remind you that if and when Syria recognizes the state of Israel and makes peace with it, the Golan Heights will be returned.


this history has a similair one
imagine a group of person enter with arms to your house and the house of 3 or 4 of your neighbour and occuped all this house by force.

and after that they negociate with you ; you recognise one of your house as our proprity and we maybe return the rest to you
scam scam scam scam
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MoscowMatt]

whynot wrote: Quote: May I remind you that when Egypt recognized the state of Israel and made peace, the Sinai was returned. May I remind you that if and when Syria recognizes the state of Israel and makes peace with it, the Golan Heights will be returned.


this history has a similair one
imagine a group of person enter with arms to your house and the house of 3 or 4 of your neighbour and occuped all this house by force.

and after that they negociate with you ; you recognise one of your house as our proprity and we maybe return the rest to you
scam scam scam scam
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Imagine a country where you lose not half your lands but 72%!! Imagine then the people rather than resort to mindless terrorism get on with their lives and live peacefully. This is Hungary, it's people lost far more in terms of land resources and population under the treaty of Trianon than what Palestine lost when Israel was created. Palestine chose violence and are paying the price. Hungary choose peace. Fate has always been in the hands of the Palestinians.

[thatisnotme]

whynot wrote: Quote: May I remind you that when Egypt recognized the state of Israel and made peace, the Sinai was returned. May I remind you that if and when Syria recognizes the state of Israel and makes peace with it, the Golan Heights will be returned.


this history has a similair one
imagine a group of person enter with arms to your house and the house of 3 or 4 of your neighbour and occuped all this house by force.

and after that they negociate with you ; you recognise one of your house as our proprity and we maybe return the rest to you
scam scam scam scam
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This implies that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs. That is totally wrong. In the period between 1918-1947, Jews immigrated to Palestine under the British mandate. That was totally legal, whether the Arabs approved of that policy or not. In 1948, the state of Israel was declared according to UN resolution 181. The only land that was lost by the Arabs were the refugees who were either kicked out or left on their own during the war of independence. However, in that period, a greater number of Jews were kicked out of the Arab countries. So that evens out the score.

[whynot]

dont care about palestine this is not the defeat the combat is long and this is not the end
in the past we have waited 200 years to free our countries.and we can do so in present and in future

you speak about hyngary romany or something like that . i guess you mean this places who 90 percent of children porn americain films are makt , if yes i will say congratulation of this free countries

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: dont care about palestine this is not the defeat the combat is long and this is not the end


This is the precise attitude that is the problem in the area. No wonder Palestinians don't have peace.

They do not want peace.

And if it means setting up some of their own people to die to make their enemy look bad and them look like victims, they do not care about that either.

[whynot]

Quote: This is the precise attitude that is the problem in the area. No wonder Palestinians don't have peace.

They do not want peace.

And if it means setting up some of their own people to die to make their enemy look bad and them look like victims, they do not care about that either.


this is the precise propaganda that israel and america use to cover massacre of children and wommen

israel want to give Palestinians 10 percent of their real lands , and they ask palestinians to accept without any discussion .
and if they say no , we want all our rightals the UN resolution say, the fashiste sioniste and the criminal crusades say ok we will make you regret do not accept.

[programmusic]

so again, in your own words, you have no desire to make peace with Israel?

Also in your own words, Israel has no history in the region, ever?