Political Crossfire Forums

X-Shocker · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 167 Location: All around you

Diplomacy is not going to work here. On one side, you have a group of countries with a common goal, the total anhilation of Israel, that is trying to "reclaim" land which fell to the British Empire and given to the Israelis, and on the other side you have a country which must repell attacks and return fires of greater strength inorder to show the attackers it is capable of standing its ground to survive.

What the Israelis need to do is declare a war on terror and wipe out Hezbullah, then give Lebonan back to the Lebonese people, with a dead zone buffer on the border (like the Berlin Wall, but of wider scale).

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

Kane wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Kane wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Ssushi wrote: Kane wrote: Ssushi wrote: I think Israel's in a whole mess now that it's going to struggle to extract itself from. Iran and Syria view the current conflict as a East vs West battle ground and so does America. Neither side's backers (Iran/Syria or America) wants their war-candidate to either loose or back down. Defeat for anyone will be such a loss for their cause: Democracy/freedom (the 'New Middle East') or Islamic ideology.

Diplomacy will probably be seen by both camps as weakness, so a military victory is needed. Unfortunately, this is also an unviable solution...

Soooo...you suggest Israel should do what?

a) Try to get on better with their neighbours - We all need to do this but no one more than Israel
b) Pull back to their originally given borders - Of course
c) Engage the international community in the attempt to make a free-zone around their country (where necessary), using 50% from their land and 50% from the agressor nations - create safely from missile attacks
d) Relinquish their nuclear weapons - makes the whole world safer and realistically they give little protection to Israel, given that they are supported by the USA anyway
e) Try to get on better with their neighbours - They are a sole Jewish country surrounded by Muslims, trying to get on with them (at least on the government / political level) should provide some support from the governments it needs to create stability.

I know, easier said than done but if onyone here comes up with an ABC solution, I'll eat my hat...

Simpler than that, the Arabs have to accept that Israel has a right to exist. Once they cross that threshold, peace will come.

Don't forget the Persians! :wink:

But yes, I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. You can argue into the sun about how Israel stole land however many years ago but it will not change the fact that you have a rather large country in it's place now. Not only does the destruction or even the relocation of such a country seem highly illogical, it's just downright stupid.

But with that, Israel needs to restrain itself with regards to countries that have any chance at brokering peace deals or ensuring Israeli security along their borders.

Impossible for Israel to broker a peace with countries who don't accept the existence of Israel. All Israel can do is to have the IDF ready for combat, establish buffer zones so that its civilians can get some protection. Other than that, there is little to do until the Arabs lay down their arm struggle and start to build their own country, instead of dreaming to push the Jews into the sea. After 60 years, they should realize that more deaths will not accomplish anything, except more deaths.

Well, you could press harder with the diplomatic angle and less with the military...

Is this why the US needs to come in? Because we hold Diplomatic Political Clout?

The US has to weary about world opinion inasmuch that it influences American public, which with the coming elections, cannot be ignored. But in terms of military decisions, the Bush admin is on the same wavelength as Israel. So the US must show its will to go the diplomatic route for expediency.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

FreedomSpeech wrote: Duchifas wrote: Before you start, let me give you a quick reminder. In 2001, after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, Hezbollah kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. They are still in Hizbollah's hands, five years later. Israel's response was very measured. No progress has been achieved. Two years ago, Hizbollah kidnapped an Israeli businessman. Israel negotiated with them, and exchanged him for hundreds of Arab prisoners. Now, Hizbollah kidnapped two more soldiers and killed 8, and fired rockets into Israeli towns.
You are justifiying the Israeli aggression because of two "kidnapped" soldiers yet you can't justify Hizbollah's latest operation (capturing the 2 soldiers) although there are thousands of Arab prisoners in Israeli prisons (many of them are children and women - why would anyone put children in prison ??? )

Yeah, why would anyone put children in prison, indeed?

I would like to find out a little more about the hundreds, nay thousands, of Lebanese children rotting in Israeli dungeons.

Could you please provide a credible source to back up your libel?

Then we can move to my explanation of why the Israeli response is justified.

FreedomSpeech · Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 80

Duchifas wrote: FreedomSpeech wrote: Duchifas wrote: Before you start, let me give you a quick reminder. In 2001, after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, Hezbollah kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. They are still in Hizbollah's hands, five years later. Israel's response was very measured. No progress has been achieved. Two years ago, Hizbollah kidnapped an Israeli businessman. Israel negotiated with them, and exchanged him for hundreds of Arab prisoners. Now, Hizbollah kidnapped two more soldiers and killed 8, and fired rockets into Israeli towns.
You are justifiying the Israeli aggression because of two "kidnapped" soldiers yet you can't justify Hizbollah's latest operation (capturing the 2 soldiers) although there are thousands of Arab prisoners in Israeli prisons (many of them are children and women - why would anyone put children in prison ??? )
Yeah, why would anyone put children in prison, indeed?

I would like to find out a little more about the hundreds, nay thousands, of Lebanese children rotting in Israeli dungeons.

Could you please provide a credible source to back up your libel?

Then we can move to my explanation of why the Israeli response is justified.
Where did I say anything about Lebanese children ? :roll:
However, if you want to talk about palestanian children then you can try visiting Israeli jails (which is impossible because Israel wouldn't let anyone see whats inside their jails - even human rights organizations, however, some human rights activists were able somehow to get in there and believe me, they were totally shocked) .
Anyhow, how would you define "credible source" ? US media, Israeli media, Haaretz :lol: ?

Defence for Children International
http://www.irishantiwar.org/news/item.tcl?news_item_id=102283

And before moving to why Israeli response is justified, I want you to explain why Hizbollah's response is not justified. And the response I'm talking about is capturing the 2 soldiers in response to Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons.

FreedomSpeech · Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 80

You might also want to take a look there: http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doclist.cfm?categoryid=2
p.s. do you actually believe everything Bush & Olmert say ? :lol:

Ssushi · Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 6604

Duchifas wrote: Ssushi wrote: a) Try to get on better with their neighbours - We all need to do this but no one more than Israel

Too vague. Can you give some tangible, practical and concrete guidelines on how to get along with a neighbor that does not recognize your right to exist and seeks your destruction. Remember, vague cliches are easy. Give some real, concrete tips, please. And explain why they would work.

Return all lands that you occupt of your neighbours - start with the Golan Heights which you took from Syria in 1967.

Duchifas wrote: Quote: b) Pull back to their originally given borders - Of course

Of course. Israel pulled out to the original border with Lebanon, which was followed by attacks from Hizbollah. Israel pulled out of Gaza, which was followed by daily rocket barrages.

So, please explain why Israel should keep withdrawing until the neighbors tangibly demonstrate that relations will actually improve with further withdrawals.

ALL YOUR neighbours lands (see above), not selectively - on as needed basis.

Duchifas wrote: [ Quote: c) Engage the international community in the attempt to make a free-zone around their country (where necessary), using 50% from their land and 50% from the agressor nations - create safely from missile attacks

Huh? What's a free-zone? And what do you mean 50% from their land? Israel is 15 miles wide near West Bank. In order to create safety from missile attacks, it would need to relocate itself to the sea. What 50% are you talking about?

Clear a no-go zone, free of you and them. I.e. if it's 10 miles wide, that's 5 miles of your land and 5 miles of theirs.

Duchifas wrote: Quote: d) Relinquish their nuclear weapons - makes the whole world safer and realistically they give little protection to Israel, given that they are supported by the USA anyway

Only after Britain gives up their nuclear weapons. First, British have more nukes than Israel, so proportionately speaking, they make the world that much less safer. Second, I don't see who Britain needs to protect itself from these days. Third, USA supports Britain.

So I think Israel should get rid of its nukes, but only after Britain sets the example.

Britain has secure borders. There are no neighbours of Britain who want to get their hands on these weapons, hence they are as safe as they can be. Also, saying ''we'll do it when you do, is not going to help YOU out is it (yet typical)... Please try and be adult about this.

Duchifas wrote: Quote: e) Try to get on better with their neighbours - They are a sole Jewish country surrounded by Muslims, trying to get on with them (at least on the government / political level) should provide some support from the governments it needs to create stability.

One more time, please be more concrete. "Get on better" is rather meaningless.

Meaningless to a nation of people who don't seem to want to - it would mean something to someone who actually wanted peace for ALL and not just for themselves.

Quote: I know, easier said than done but if anyone here comes up with an ABC solution, I'll eat my hat...

Duchifas wrote: There are no ABC solutions to the Middle East conflict. There are ridiculous ones, and less ridiculous ones. Care to guess which category your "suggestions" fall into?

Well I reckon we’ll see whose plan forward will be proven more ridiculous shortly. The current Israeli plan is falling on it arse are like the missiles fall on your territory. If you haven’t noticed – the missiles haven’t stopped. And the more the Israeli’s do, the more recruits there’ll be against them…

During USA brokered negotiations in 1999-2000, Israel offered to return most of the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace and full recognition. Syria refused. Syria offered full recognition and peace in exchange for a complete return to the pre-1967 borders. Israel refused.

Just give everything back to everyone and you might stand a chance of people supporting you.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8418 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Return all lands that you occupt of your neighbours - start with the Golan Heights which you took from Syria in 1967.

Which in all likely hood they will never get back. Unless we see amazing reform and improvement in Syria and think we can trust them with our security on this one.

Quote: Britain has secure borders. There are no neighbours of Britain who want to get their hands on these weapons, hence they are as safe as they can be. Also, saying ''we'll do it when you do, is not going to help YOU out is it (yet typical)... Please try and be adult about this.

Britian has one nation on it's borders unless Fish have declared their independence? Even with that one nation Britian has had it's fair share of decades of violence and only a recently passive terrorist group.

So basically you want us to disarm because our weapons might fall into the wrong hands? You really think Hamas is going to raid Dimona?

Quote: During USA brokered negotiations in 1999-2000, Israel offered to return most of the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace and full recognition. Syria refused. Syria offered full recognition and peace in exchange for a complete return to the pre-1967 borders. Israel refused.

Yes we did, we dont trust Syria in the slightest. If we are going to do it at all within a decade then it's going to be in tiny incriments.

The Golan Heights also gives Syria a border right onto the Galilee again, that is something we will not let happen again.

Ssushi · Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 6604

superskippy wrote: Yes we did [take the Goam Heights from Syria], we dont trust Syria in the slightest. If we are going to do it at all within a decade then it's going to be in tiny incriments.

The Golan Heights also gives Syria a border right onto the Galilee again, that is something we will not let happen again.

The Golam Heights are a strategic water source if I'm not mistaken?

If you don't return to the original boarders, given to you - you can expect little peace and little support. I understand that the Heights gives you a buffer, yet the irony is that this buffer provides hatred of you from your neighbours... catch 22. Unless, you move back to within your own territory, and maintain a no-go zone there... but that would be seen as you being weak wouldn't it...

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

FreedomSpeech wrote: Where did I say anything about Lebanese children ? :roll:

Well, this is a thread about the conflict with Lebanon, isn't it?

Oh what grounds do you justify Hizbollah's attack on Israel? That Israel imprisons Palestinian children?

Would you say that Israel can attack Argentina because it holds some Chileans in it's prisons?

Your logic is ridiculous. Today you justify Lebanese aggression based on Israel's relations with Palestinians. What will you justify tomorrow? Japanese aggression against Israel based on Palestinians?

Quote: However, if you want to talk about palestanian children then you can try visiting Israeli jails (which is impossible because Israel wouldn't let anyone see whats inside their jails - even human rights organizations, however, some human rights activists were able somehow to get in there and believe me, they were totally shocked) .
Anyhow, how would you define "credible source" ? US media, Israeli media, Haaretz :lol: ?

Defence for Children International
http://www.irishantiwar.org/news/item.tcl?news_item_id=102283

These are certainly not credible sources. They use propaganda methods to propagate libels.

A photo from their site:

This "child" is taller than the soldier who is arresting him. There is no context, no information about what these children have done. American juvenile prisons also hold children. So does every other Western country. When a child cannot function in society, he is imprisoned. This is not unique to Israel.

Quote: And before moving to why Israeli response is justified, I want you to explain why Hizbollah's response is not justified. And the response I'm talking about is capturing the 2 soldiers in response to Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons.

The Lebanese in Israeli jails are terrorists, convicted murderers. These are the people that Hizbollah wants released:

Quote: Samir Kuntar (Arabic: سمير القنطار‎, also transcribed Qantar) (born July 20, 1962 in Aabey, Lebanon), is a Lebanese who participated in a terrorist attack on Israeli civilians in 1979. He has been held in Israeli jails under a four-times-life sentence since his conviction in 1979 on charges of murder and terrorism, for murdering two Israeli civilians (a 28-year-old male and his 4-year-old daughter) and killing two Israeli policemen.

On April 22, 1979, Samir Kuntar led a group of four who entered Israel from Lebanon by boat. They belonged to the organization PLF under the leadership of Abu Abbas. Around midnight they arrived at the coastal town of Nahariya about six miles south of the Lebanese border. The four killed a policeman who ran across them and were able to break into the apartment of the Haran family before police reinforcements had arrived. The unit took 28-year-old Danny Haran hostage along with his four-year-old daughter Einat. The mother, Smadar Haran, was able to hide in a crawl space above the bedroom with her two-year-old daughter Yael. Kuntar's group understood that there were more people in the house and went around looking for them, shooting rounds and throwing hand grenades.

After holding to the hostages, a shootout with Israeli policemen and soldiers erupted. Samir Kuntar shot and killed the father at close range in front of his daughter, and then murdered the four-year-old girl by smashing her head with the butt of his rifle against a rock, crushing her skull. Tragically, the two-year-old girl was accidentally suffocated to death, when her mother desperately tried to keep her quiet. A policeman and two of Samir Kuntar's unit were also killed. Kuntar and the fourth participant in the shootout were captured. The latter, Ahmed Abarrass, was freed by Israel in the 1986 Ahmed Jibril prisoner deal in return for three Israeli soldiers.

Kuntar was tried and convicted for the murders of Danny and Einat Haran. He has also admitted his complicity many times and expressed pride about the killings. Still, he has many supporters in Lebanon who maintain that he is innocent. These supporters also, alternately, claim that the Harans were legitimate targets and considers Kuntar to be a political prisoner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar

http://www.samirkuntar.org/

If you believe that Hizbollah is justified in abducting Israelis in order to free murderers like this, then you are nothing more than a terrorist supporter, and we have nothing more to talk about.

FreedomSpeech · Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 80

Duchifas wrote: FreedomSpeech wrote: Where did I say anything about Lebanese children ? :roll:

Well, this is a thread about the conflict with Lebanon, isn't it?

Oh what grounds do you justify Hizbollah's attack on Israel? That Israel imprisons Palestinian children?

Would you say that Israel can attack Argentina because it holds some Chileans in it's prisons?

Your logic is ridiculous. Today you justify Lebanese aggression based on Israel's relations with Palestinians. What will you justify tomorrow? Japanese aggression against Israel based on Palestinians?

I'm really impressed by your level of thinking....
Let me help you understand
FreedomSpeech wrote: And before moving to why Israeli response is justified, I want you to explain why Hizbollah's response is not justified. And the response I'm talking about is capturing the 2 soldiers in response to Lebanese prisoners in Israeli prisons.
See the bold parts ? it is saying Lebanese prisoners, and guess what, it doesn't say anything about children..

Quote: The Lebanese in Israeli jails are terrorists, convicted murderers. These are the people that Hizbollah wants released
You are really close-minded, man, the same exactly applies for the two captured Israeli soldiers, Israel is seen as a terrorist state by Hizbollah. You keep saying that Hizbollah's prisoners are terrorists because they are considered so by USA & Israel. But, Hizbollah sees Israel as bunch of terrorists because they fit in "Terrorism" definition.

Just see it this way: Israel occupies, takes prisoners. Hisbollah tries to get occupied territories back and free their prisoners. They accomplished task 1 in 2000, now they're focusing on task 2. See, I didn't even use "terrorist" word here, what you don't realize that when Olmert says Hizbollah are terrorists it doesn't mean they are terrorists, the same applies to Hizbollah leaders, when they say Israel are terrorists, it doesn't mean they are really terrorists.

Quote: These are certainly not credible sources. They use propaganda methods to propagate libels.

propaganda methods ? lol man, this is so amusing :lol:
I really find it amusing the way you define a source as a credible or non credible is just unbelivable. Tell me, since when the tall of children became a measure of credibility ? :lol:

If you're looking for "shorter" children, you might want to look at this report http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doc/reports/2005/apr03.pdf - edit: I corrected the link

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Quote: See the bold parts ? it is saying Lebanese prisoners, and guess what, it doesn't say anything about children..

Are you that dense that you can't remember what you said two posts ago?

Quote: You are justifiying the Israeli aggression because of two "kidnapped" soldiers yet you can't justify Hizbollah's latest operation (capturing the 2 soldiers) although there are thousands of Arab prisoners in Israeli prisons (many of them are children and women - why would anyone put children in prison ??? )

Quote: You are really close-minded, man, the same exactly applies for the two captured Israeli soldiers, Israel is seen as a terrorist state by Hizbollah. You keep saying that Hizbollah's prisoners are terrorists because they are considered so by USA & Israel. But, Hizbollah sees Israel as bunch of terrorists because they fit in "Terrorism" definition.

I know very well who says what. And this is exactly what I wanted to expose here. That you are on the side of Hezbollah. To you, they are freedom fighters, and we are terrorists.

Just come out and say it straight, "I support Hezbollah."

Quote:
propaganda methods ? lol man, this is so amusing Laughing
I really find it amusing the way you define a source as a credible or non credible is just unbelivable. Tell me, since when the tall of children became a measure of credibility ? Laughing

If you're looking for "shorter" children, you might want to look at this report http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doc/reports/2005/apr03.pdf - edit: I corrected the link

I already saw shorter children and how your buddies in Hamas are using them as suicide bombs.

Tell us, FreedomSpeech, where does a 13 year old get a suicide bomb vest?

http://emperor.vwh.net/abdo/abdopics.htm

FreedomSpeech · Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 80

Duchifas wrote: Quote: See the bold parts ? it is saying Lebanese prisoners, and guess what, it doesn't say anything about children..

Are you that dense that you can't remember what you said two posts ago?

Yes, I said there are Arab children in Israeli prisons, but I was just stating a fact, I didn't say that Hizbollah's operation was made to free these Arab children.

Duchifas wrote:
I know very well who says what. And this is exactly what I wanted to expose here. That you are on the side of Hezbollah. To you, they are freedom fighters, and we are terrorists.

Just come out and say it straight, "I support Hezbollah."

I know exactly who says this. To you, Hizbollah are terrorists, and Israel had declared war on terror and this justifies any terrorism Israel makes. Crap close-minded thinking, I tried to explain it to you without using the t-word (Bush's favorite word :lol: ) and yet you insist on using this word in every argument, this proves how biased you are.

You obviously don't want to get my points here, your insistance on using the same words the Israeli leader keeps using reveals the fact that you are not but a ( "propoganda method" :lol: hehe). There is no use of arguing with you .

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8418 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: The Golam Heights are a strategic water source if I'm not mistaken?

If you don't return to the original boarders, given to you - you can expect little peace and little support. I understand that the Heights gives you a buffer, yet the irony is that this buffer provides hatred of you from your neighbours... catch 22. Unless, you move back to within your own territory, and maintain a no-go zone there... but that would be seen as you being weak wouldn't it...

Aye thats also true, the Water value and the issue of allowing Syrian artillary and troops to be put back on rim of the Galilee is not an option.

The buffer only increases the hatred but it also gives them the very clear picture that they are weaker and we dictate the terms not they. They can hate us, so long as they cannot destroy us. And the Golan Heights offers one of the most militarily important possible the most militarily important position in Israel.

Zeeman · Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject:

I actually see Israel giving the Golan Heights back to Syria (although i know it wont happen without force or pressure) would be the best move they can ever do,for them and not just Syria...
First of all they would reward Syria for not fighting them since 1967 and provide an example for the rest of the sides involved in the conflict as a goodwill that if it isnt attacked it will give back land for peace...
This way they would actually for once show the world a single sign of commitment to peace.Eventually it will happen so why not avoid the deaths of innocent people in the process.

maalox · Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 133 Location: above u

to please us ? nthn but giving Lebanon back it`s land and ppl , plus sign a contract , never attack lebanon

and they will

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8418 Location: Petah Tikva

Zeeman wrote: I actually see Israel giving the Golan Heights back to Syria (although i know it wont happen without force or pressure) would be the best move they can ever do,for them and not just Syria...
First of all they would reward Syria for not fighting them since 1967 and provide an example for the rest of the sides involved in the conflict as a goodwill that if it isnt attacked it will give back land for peace...
This way they would actually for once show the world a single sign of commitment to peace.Eventually it will happen so why not avoid the deaths of innocent people in the process.

They attacked us in 1973 and we fought them as recently as 1982. And they have been funding our enemes ever since. We are far far away from ever giving back the Golan Heights.

mr_happy · Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 319

Would you give a gun to a convicted murderer? Same analogy applies to the Golan Heights. WHy let a nation that is STILL in a state of war with you have access to a site that puts Gallille under the muzzle of artillery batteries? Although, I don't see why Israel doesn't give up the Shebaa farms. I mean, its technically Syrian territory, so giving it to the Lebanese would be punishment for the Syrian hostility. However Hezbullah's latest stupidity has cast that idea out the window.

X-Shocker · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 167 Location: All around you

Land conquered in war is land gained by the winning side and land lost by the losing side. When the war is over, the loser doesn't just go back the the winner and say, "we lost the war, but could we get our land back?" It doesn't work that way. It is solely at the discretion of the winner, whether it wants to keep the land or give it back.

Too, bad for the losers.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1642 Location: UK / Hungary

Zeeman wrote: I actually see Israel giving the Golan Heights back to Syria (although i know it wont happen without force or pressure) would be the best move they can ever do,for them and not just Syria...
First of all they would reward Syria for not fighting them since 1967 and provide an example for the rest of the sides involved in the conflict as a goodwill that if it isnt attacked it will give back land for peace...
This way they would actually for once show the world a single sign of commitment to peace.Eventually it will happen so why not avoid the deaths of innocent people in the process.

Reward a country for not attacking you. I love it..... hilarious!!! :rotf:

Hmmm lets see the Germans have not attacked us since 1945 what shall we reward them with??!!!!! :lol: