Political Crossfire Forums

[Ek0nomik]

A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

[LostSoul3412]

With any government comes taxes. Even if privatized, governments would still need funds from its citizens.

However, it is my belief that such taxes are coercion by the government, which is also why I do not support neither taxation, nor government.

[Ek0nomik]

LostSoul3412 wrote: With any government comes taxes. Even if privatized, governments would still need funds from its citizens.

However, it is my belief that such taxes are coercion by the government, which is also why I do not support neither taxation, nor government.

So, you're an Anarchist?

[Harbinger]

Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations. The federal government can also raise revenue from protective import tariffs and the sale of government securities. Plus, by abolishing the Federal Reserve and the IRS and employing the US Treasury as the monetary authority, the government can collect all the profits that the Federal Reserve makes from lending Federal Reserve Notes to banks. All debt-based Federal Reserve Notes can be replaced with zero-debt US Treasury Notes.

[Kindred]

Quote: Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished

Yet.......

Quote: federal government can also raise revenue from protective import tariffs


Rrrrrrright, in other words; governments that uses taxation are inherently fascist, but it's alright because we can avoid that by......taxing people.......


Anyway, tax is not inherently unjust, indeed, I can think of numerous situation in which taxation (or some similar variant) is the only method of regaining or holding justice, for example; the internalization of costs born by third parties during market transactions (so called environmental and social 'externalities'); the redistribution of wealth not created and hence not justifiably owned by any individual; and for me, but certainly not an uncontested belief; ensuring that the population, particularly innocent children, have all they need to survive (i.e. basic welfare, healthcare).

Now, watch as my counterparts focus solely on the latter.

[Harbinger]

Kindred wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished.


Yet.......

Harbinger wrote:
federal government can also raise revenue from protective import tariffs
Rrrrrrright, in other words; governments that uses taxation are inherently fascist, but it's alright because we can avoid that by......taxing people.......

Seems like a contradiction, doesn't it. Allow me to clarify. Taxing the people means taxing domestic trade, not international trade.

Kindred wrote:
Anyway, tax is not inherently unjust,

You think theft is just?

Kindred wrote:
indeed, I can think of numerous situation in which taxation (or some similar variant) is the only method of regaining or holding justice, for example; ...
There is no way to regain or hold justice by committing an injustice.

[Free Thinkr]

Harbinger wrote: Kindred wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished.


Yet.......

Harbinger wrote:
federal government can also raise revenue from protective import tariffs
Rrrrrrright, in other words; governments that uses taxation are inherently fascist, but it's alright because we can avoid that by......taxing people.......

Seems like a contradiction, doesn't it. Allow me to clarify. Taxing the people means taxing domestic trade, not international trade.
How is that? What does it matter who I buy from or sell to? Either way, it's tax.

Quote: Kindred wrote: Anyway, tax is not inherently unjust,

You think theft is just?
No, he thinks (justifiably so, IMO) that tax is not theft.

Quote: Kindred wrote: indeed, I can think of numerous situation in which taxation (or some similar variant) is the only method of regaining or holding justice, for example; ...
There is no way to regain or hold justice by committing an injustice.
There is no way to have justice unless justice can be enforced; that enforcement requires taxation. I agree that some methods of taxation are unjust and should be done away with, but to say that all taxation is wholly ignores that justice cannot be secured in anarchy.

[Iriemon]

Harbinger wrote: Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations.

They tried that before, it was insufficient.

Quote: The federal government can also raise revenue from protective import tariffs and the sale of government securities. Plus, by abolishing the Federal Reserve and the IRS and employing the US Treasury as the monetary authority, the government can collect all the profits that the Federal Reserve makes from lending Federal Reserve Notes to banks. All debt-based Federal Reserve Notes can be replaced with zero-debt US Treasury Notes.

Give the executive branch power over the money supply? Ha! No thanks! It can't even manage fiscal policy.

[gavnook]

Iriemon wrote: Harbinger wrote: Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations.

They tried that before, it was insufficient.

To what (and more importantly, whose) ends?

[LostSoul3412]

Ek0nomik wrote: So, you're an Anarchist?

Indeed, I do fashion myself to be an Anarcho-Capitlaist.

[Iriemon]

gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: Harbinger wrote: Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations.

They tried that before, it was insufficient.

To what (and more importantly, whose) ends?

You got me. The nation's, I suppose. You'd have to talk to the folks who determined that an income tax was necessary whenever it was first instituted.

[Free Thinkr]

Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: Harbinger wrote: Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations.

They tried that before, it was insufficient.

To what (and more importantly, whose) ends?

You got me. The nation's, I suppose. You'd have to talk to the folks who determined that an income tax was necessary whenever it was first instituted.
In fairness, that's not much of an endorsement. Many insane policies have been tried throughout the ages, and many remain today.

[Iriemon]

Free Thinkr wrote: Iriemon wrote: gavnook wrote: Iriemon wrote: Harbinger wrote: Ek0nomik wrote:
A lot of people in this forum don't believe in taxation, or if they do, very little of it. How do so many of you plan on funding anything without any money for our government to spend? Private sector? I've been confused on this lately...

Of course a minimum of government infrastructure is necessary but, governments that tax are inherently fascist and can never be trusted. Taxes must be abolished. The federal and state governments can raise plenty of money from fines, court and public service fees and public donations.

They tried that before, it was insufficient.

To what (and more importantly, whose) ends?

You got me. The nation's, I suppose. You'd have to talk to the folks who determined that an income tax was necessary whenever it was first instituted.
In fairness, that's not much of an endorsement. Many insane policies have been tried throughout the ages, and many remain today.

True enough. A reasonable system of taxation is not one of them, IMO.

[Free Thinkr]

Iriemon wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: In fairness, that's not much of an endorsement. Many insane policies have been tried throughout the ages, and many remain today.

True enough. A reasonable system of taxation is not one of them, IMO.
A reasonable system has not been tried? I agree.

[bob.appleyard]

Although overly burdensome levels of taxation are innefficient, the level of taxation is less important than what is taxed, and how.

[Graph]

I support taxes, but I don't support the U.S. tax system. I don't like how it's so complicated and confusing. One of America's core democratic values is equality. How can you have equality if only some people are able to get certain tax breaks while others have to pay more because they aren't able to get those breaks? To get complete equality shouldn't everybody have to pay the same amount or at least the same percentage of their overall gross earnings and be done with?

[LostSoul3412]

Graph wrote: I support taxes, but I don't support the U.S. tax system. I don't like how it's so complicated and confusing. One of America's core democratic values is equality. How can you have equality if only some people are able to get certain tax breaks while others have to pay more because they aren't able to get those breaks? To get complete equality shouldn't everybody have to pay the same amount or at least the same percentage of their overall gross earnings and be done with?

I don't support taxes, but I can agree with the rest of what you're saying...

The least coercive tax is a Flat Tax.

[Gatz Nieblas]

Graph wrote: I support taxes, but I don't support the U.S. tax system. I don't like how it's so complicated and confusing. One of America's core democratic values is equality. How can you have equality if only some people are able to get certain tax breaks while others have to pay more because they aren't able to get those breaks? To get complete equality shouldn't everybody have to pay the same amount or at least the same percentage of their overall gross earnings and be done with?

I second that comment. The US needs a flat tax of 10% so it can fund those services that are not profitable to the private market or that are too expensive for private marketeers. Some posters have asked for no taxation, but protective tariffs? yeah.....welcome to the Gilded Age where tariffs were used by corrupt, big business republicans that were paid of by corporations to avoid foreign competitition. The result? Continuous depressions due to the fact that inflation would skyrocket immediately after tariffs like the McKineley Tariff was put into place. Also, whenever tariffs would be instated, the currency would bottom out since the government-caused inflation would rob the banks of their gold, thus forcing an even weaker currency when the government tried to stabilize things with fiat, paper money (like it does now). America shouldnt be a taxless society but should be a free market, libertarian one and with my ideal of a 10% flat tax and the elimination of all corporate taxes, regulations, and tariffs, America would be just that.

[Kindred]

LostSoul3412 wrote: Graph wrote: I support taxes, but I don't support the U.S. tax system. I don't like how it's so complicated and confusing. One of America's core democratic values is equality. How can you have equality if only some people are able to get certain tax breaks while others have to pay more because they aren't able to get those breaks? To get complete equality shouldn't everybody have to pay the same amount or at least the same percentage of their overall gross earnings and be done with?

I don't support taxes, but I can agree with the rest of what you're saying...

The least coercive tax is a Flat Tax.

No, the least coercive tax is a Land Value Tax, and/or any tax which seeks to internalise externalised costs born by third parties during market transactions.

[Kindred]

Gatz Nieblas, your signature is far too large and is stretching the page margins. Please remove (some of?) them.