Political Crossfire Forums

[Rilzic]

Melcar wrote: I don't know. I guess it depends on how advanced this alien race is. In most alien movies the Earth forces are defeated in a few days. A more realistic scenario would be like in Independance Day.

Your kidding right.

[Rilzic]

superskippy wrote: thundertaker wrote: Well, I think any aliens that have the technical know-how to master intergalactic space travel will probably have weapons tech that makes our most advanced weapons tech look like a stone-age club, and the resulting battle wouldn't be so much a battle as a massacre (think The Battle of Omdurman x1000) so yes, I think in all probability they would be able to get the better of all the world's militaries (I don't know why you only included the US military in your hypothetical discussion, I think all of humanity would have a stake in trying to repel the alien invaders don't you?!?)

You would think so but imagine this, they are only a few score decades ahead of us but have mastered mid light speed using Hydrogen fuel so about 140,000km/s as well as some sort of suspended animation so the trip takes 30-40 years but they have an invasion fleet all prepared. They have a few decades on us in technology, but most likely have far less people. If you matched all the armies of World War II against the US Army of today for example who would win? Would it be a bloody draw? What if these Aliens really were only about 80 years ahead of us? Or even 100 years ahead of us? Sure they have a massive technological advantage, but is it enough? Could 500,000 modern day troops defeat all the peoples of the world in 1918 and subdue the entire planet? What about as the war dragged on and our technology grew?

The technology that would allow space travel like this is stuff we are just beginning to grasp so it isnt to far out, and it also shows a different idea to the commonly themed super advanced alien civilization. I think it's a very interesting idea to think about.

Of course your idea that they are super advanced alien civilization would completely outclass and grind earth's defenders to dust is also entirely valid. :-D

Ok consider this humans haven't developed even lasers to a very useable degree yet. So we will in a few decades and the aliens have this. It would immediately render our missiles and nuke useless and they would have a speed of light anti missile weapon with much better targeting computers and lasers powerful enough to wipe out a nuke in the split second. They could use the same system on out satellites destroying any GPS targeting systems as well as a large portion of our communications. sitting in space at this point perfectly safe. Then they could target political and military targets at there own leisure.

Until much faster missiles with evasive maneuvering are invented then it will only be decades to make existing missile tech completely obsolete. Think about it. If you have a laser that fires at the speed of light and can puncture steal in a split second and powerful enough to hit distance targets all our jets, all our tanks, and missiles are useless. This wouldn't be instant victory but it would let them sit in space and pick us off.

Until i guess we develop missile made of mirrors or something. Laser tech is about to explode in the next few decades. main limiting factor is the amounts of energy which in the case of aliens would likely be solved.

[perdidochas]

ATrow wrote: superskippy wrote: thundertaker wrote: Well, I think any aliens that have the technical know-how to master intergalactic space travel will probably have weapons tech that makes our most advanced weapons tech look like a stone-age club, and the resulting battle wouldn't be so much a battle as a massacre (think The Battle of Omdurman x1000) so yes, I think in all probability they would be able to get the better of all the world's militaries (I don't know why you only included the US military in your hypothetical discussion, I think all of humanity would have a stake in trying to repel the alien invaders don't you?!?)

You would think so but imagine this, they are only a few score decades ahead of us but have mastered mid light speed using Hydrogen fuel so about 140,000km/s as well as some sort of suspended animation so the trip takes 30-40 years but they have an invasion fleet all prepared. They have a few decades on us in technology, but most likely have far less people. If you matched all the armies of World War II against the US Army of today for example who would win? Would it be a bloody draw? What if these Aliens really were only about 80 years ahead of us? Or even 100 years ahead of us? Sure they have a massive technological advantage, but is it enough? Could 500,000 modern day troops defeat all the peoples of the world in 1918 and subdue the entire planet? What about as the war dragged on and our technology grew?

The technology that would allow space travel like this is stuff we are just beginning to grasp so it isnt to far out, and it also shows a different idea to the commonly themed super advanced alien civilization. I think it's a very interesting idea to think about.

Of course your idea that they are super advanced alien civilization would completely outclass and grind earth's defenders to dust is also entirely valid. :-D

If you took an M16 and a couple dozen grenades to 1200 AD you would be the king of most of Europe in a few weeks. Of course until you ran out of ammunition.

You might could defend a castle.......

[perdidochas]

NAB wrote: ATrow wrote: superskippy wrote: thundertaker wrote: Well, I think any aliens that have the technical know-how to master intergalactic space travel will probably have weapons tech that makes our most advanced weapons tech look like a stone-age club, and the resulting battle wouldn't be so much a battle as a massacre (think The Battle of Omdurman x1000) so yes, I think in all probability they would be able to get the better of all the world's militaries (I don't know why you only included the US military in your hypothetical discussion, I think all of humanity would have a stake in trying to repel the alien invaders don't you?!?)

You would think so but imagine this, they are only a few score decades ahead of us but have mastered mid light speed using Hydrogen fuel so about 140,000km/s as well as some sort of suspended animation so the trip takes 30-40 years but they have an invasion fleet all prepared. They have a few decades on us in technology, but most likely have far less people. If you matched all the armies of World War II against the US Army of today for example who would win? Would it be a bloody draw? What if these Aliens really were only about 80 years ahead of us? Or even 100 years ahead of us? Sure they have a massive technological advantage, but is it enough? Could 500,000 modern day troops defeat all the peoples of the world in 1918 and subdue the entire planet? What about as the war dragged on and our technology grew?

The technology that would allow space travel like this is stuff we are just beginning to grasp so it isnt to far out, and it also shows a different idea to the commonly themed super advanced alien civilization. I think it's a very interesting idea to think about.

Of course your idea that they are super advanced alien civilization would completely outclass and grind earth's defenders to dust is also entirely valid. :-D

If you took an M16 and a couple dozen grenades to 1200 AD you would be the king of most of Europe in a few weeks. Of course until you ran out of ammunition.

I remember reading a Sci-fi series of books long ago on your last point called Janissaries. Modern day soldiers were taken to a planet which had much older Earth cultures (Roman Legions, Highlanders, etc) and began to dominate some of these cultures with their modern weapons. Although in the stories, their ammo was limited, so they also relied on their knowledge of military tactics (including those they fought against). The technology wasn't the only factor in their success, it merely became a force multiplier I suppose.

Technology is not just hardware. it also includes strategy and knowledge.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

superskippy wrote: thundertaker wrote: Well, I think any aliens that have the technical know-how to master intergalactic space travel will probably have weapons tech that makes our most advanced weapons tech look like a stone-age club, and the resulting battle wouldn't be so much a battle as a massacre (think The Battle of Omdurman x1000) so yes, I think in all probability they would be able to get the better of all the world's militaries (I don't know why you only included the US military in your hypothetical discussion, I think all of humanity would have a stake in trying to repel the alien invaders don't you?!?)

You would think so but imagine this, they are only a few score decades ahead of us but have mastered mid light speed using Hydrogen fuel so about 140,000km/s as well as some sort of suspended animation so the trip takes 30-40 years but they have an invasion fleet all prepared. They have a few decades on us in technology, but most likely have far less people. If you matched all the armies of World War II against the US Army of today for example who would win? Would it be a bloody draw? What if these Aliens really were only about 80 years ahead of us? Or even 100 years ahead of us? Sure they have a massive technological advantage, but is it enough? Could 500,000 modern day troops defeat all the peoples of the world in 1918 and subdue the entire planet? What about as the war dragged on and our technology grew?

The technology that would allow space travel like this is stuff we are just beginning to grasp so it isnt to far out, and it also shows a different idea to the commonly themed super advanced alien civilization. I think it's a very interesting idea to think about.

Of course your idea that they are super advanced alien civilization would completely outclass and grind earth's defenders to dust is also entirely valid. :-D

Sooomeone is a Turtledove fan. :-D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If no one knows what I'm talking about when I say "Turtledove..."

There's a semi-famous writer of novels in the "Alternate History" genre. He's very prolific for non-Asimov standards, coming out with 2-4 novels in a typical year. His name is Harry Turtledove. Some years ago he began a series of books that has now stretched to eight installments, beginning with a novel called "In the Balance," in which a race of aliens with technology just a bit more advanced than modern day invades earth in 1943. The major twist is that the aliens develop techology at a much slower pace than man--it takes them thousands of years to develop and introduce new technology. Their civilization stretches back 200,000 years. They sent probes to earth in the Middle Ages and thought that they were facing a race that developed as slowly as they, when in reality the much more volatile humans had advanced to near their level of technology.

Anyway, I thought it, like most of his books, was pretty interesting.

[NAB]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: If no one knows what I'm talking about when I say "Turtledove..."

There's a semi-famous writer of novels in the "Alternate History" genre. He's very prolific for non-Asimov standards, coming out with 2-4 novels in a typical year. His name is Harry Turtledove. Some years ago he began a series of books that has now stretched to eight installments, beginning with a novel called "In the Balance," in which a race of aliens with technology just a bit more advanced than modern day invades earth in 1943. The major twist is that the aliens develop techology at a much slower pace than man--it takes them thousands of years to develop and introduce new technology. Their civilization stretches back 200,000 years. They sent probes to earth in the Middle Ages and thought that they were facing a race that developed as slowly as they, when in reality the much more volatile humans had advanced to near their level of technology.

Anyway, I thought it, like most of his books, was pretty interesting.

I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

[Spider]

NAB wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: If no one knows what I'm talking about when I say "Turtledove..."

There's a semi-famous writer of novels in the "Alternate History" genre. He's very prolific for non-Asimov standards, coming out with 2-4 novels in a typical year. His name is Harry Turtledove. Some years ago he began a series of books that has now stretched to eight installments, beginning with a novel called "In the Balance," in which a race of aliens with technology just a bit more advanced than modern day invades earth in 1943. The major twist is that the aliens develop techology at a much slower pace than man--it takes them thousands of years to develop and introduce new technology. Their civilization stretches back 200,000 years. They sent probes to earth in the Middle Ages and thought that they were facing a race that developed as slowly as they, when in reality the much more volatile humans had advanced to near their level of technology.

Anyway, I thought it, like most of his books, was pretty interesting.

I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

Oh yes. First of all, read the quartet that begins with In the Balance, as recommended above. Really his best work, in my opinion. Covers this whole weird warping of WW2 events from a very global standpoint, with detailed extrapolations. Excellent stuff.

You might also enjoy The Guns of the South. This was fun. It deals with a bunch of loony south africans who didn't like the way aparthied worked out, so they traveled back in time to the american civil war, and outfitted the confederate army with AK-47's. It was fun stuff.

Turtledove has since continued his WW2 series further into the 20th century, and written some stuff on alternate history concerning shakespear as a leader in elizabethan britain, and the introduction of gunpowder into the roman empire. He's also written some "American Empire" stuff, as a departure from actual events, which I'm sure many members of this forum would enjoy :lol:

Much of it is hit or miss, but its all built on an excellent understanding of history, and fascinating ideas.

An excellent writer.

You might also check out 1632, by Eric Flint, and the resulting series. Totally different ideas, but an interesting take on what happens to 30 years war germany when an entire 20th century american town is flung back through time to land squarely in the middle of that mess. Southern hillbillies with modern hunting rifles vs. muzzleloading armies of the 17th century...fun stuff.

Yeah, I'm a book nerd. I admit it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

NAB wrote:
I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

The Guns of the South is ok.

I would highly recommend the In the Balance series. But the series I like more begins with How Few Remain. Really, really good stuff IMO.

[Spider]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: NAB wrote:
I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

The Guns of the South is ok.

I would highly recommend the In the Balance series. But the series I like more begins with How Few Remain. Really, really good stuff IMO.

I just couldn't get into that one, for some reason...does it get better after the first book, or is it that slow consistently?

[NAB]

Spider wrote: NAB wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: If no one knows what I'm talking about when I say "Turtledove..."

There's a semi-famous writer of novels in the "Alternate History" genre. He's very prolific for non-Asimov standards, coming out with 2-4 novels in a typical year. His name is Harry Turtledove. Some years ago he began a series of books that has now stretched to eight installments, beginning with a novel called "In the Balance," in which a race of aliens with technology just a bit more advanced than modern day invades earth in 1943. The major twist is that the aliens develop techology at a much slower pace than man--it takes them thousands of years to develop and introduce new technology. Their civilization stretches back 200,000 years. They sent probes to earth in the Middle Ages and thought that they were facing a race that developed as slowly as they, when in reality the much more volatile humans had advanced to near their level of technology.

Anyway, I thought it, like most of his books, was pretty interesting.

I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

Oh yes. First of all, read the quartet that begins with In the Balance, as recommended above. Really his best work, in my opinion. Covers this whole weird warping of WW2 events from a very global standpoint, with detailed extrapolations. Excellent stuff.

You might also enjoy The Guns of the South. This was fun. It deals with a bunch of loony south africans who didn't like the way aparthied worked out, so they traveled back in time to the american civil war, and outfitted the confederate army with AK-47's. It was fun stuff.

Turtledove has since continued his WW2 series further into the 20th century, and written some stuff on alternate history concerning shakespear as a leader in elizabethan britain, and the introduction of gunpowder into the roman empire. He's also written some "American Empire" stuff, as a departure from actual events, which I'm sure many members of this forum would enjoy :lol:

Much of it is hit or miss, but its all built on an excellent understanding of history, and fascinating ideas.

An excellent writer.

You might also check out 1632, by Eric Flint, and the resulting series. Totally different ideas, but an interesting take on what happens to 30 years war germany when an entire 20th century american town is flung back through time to land squarely in the middle of that mess. Southern hillbillies with modern hunting rifles vs. muzzleloading armies of the 17th century...fun stuff.

Yeah, I'm a book nerd. I admit it.

Thanks for the ideas. I get to spend a lot of time on airplanes due to work, so I always need some new recommendations for books. I too am quite the book nerd, but my tastes are all over the place from fiction to non-fiction and depending on my mood. I do enjoy a little historical fiction on occasion, especially when the author has done their research. For any interested in ancient Rome, I'm a big fan of Colleen Mccullough's series. 7 books, I believe, and good stuff IMHO.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Spider wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: NAB wrote:
I've read a couple of his books, but somehow neither would fall into his Alternate History books, which seems to be the majority of his work. I've read Household Gods (not too bad), and Justinian (which I liked). Are there any of his other series you (or others) would say are particuarly interesting to read? Just curious.

The Guns of the South is ok.

I would highly recommend the In the Balance series. But the series I like more begins with How Few Remain. Really, really good stuff IMO.

I just couldn't get into that one, for some reason...does it get better after the first book, or is it that slow consistently?

It gets a bit faster. I'd read at least a couple more books if I were you.

[lovebush]

battleax86 wrote: The US military. We will team up with the Brits, Israelis, Chinese, and Russians to drive the aliens back to whatever hellhole they came from. We'll let them have France, though. :lol:


yea, you know what they say, "going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordian."

[PoS]

Melcar wrote: I don't know. I guess it depends on how advanced this alien race is. In most alien movies the Earth forces are defeated in a few days. A more realistic scenario would be like in Independance Day.

ID4??? :roll:

You mean that silly movie where the aliens have superpowerful WMDs but use MS-DOS computers with no anti-virus software?

Next to HG Well's War of the Worlds the best alien invasion novel for me would be Niven and Pournelle's FOOTFALL- it's totally realistic and awesome, a must read (a race of not so-advanced aliens invades Earth and nearly enslaves the world until the U.S. military creates an ingenous spaceship- with nukes for propulsion- to take down the Alien mothership).

[NAB]

PoS wrote: Melcar wrote: I don't know. I guess it depends on how advanced this alien race is. In most alien movies the Earth forces are defeated in a few days. A more realistic scenario would be like in Independance Day.

ID4??? :roll:

You mean that silly movie where the aliens have superpowerful WMDs but use MS-DOS computers with no anti-virus software?

Next to HG Well's War of the Worlds the best alien invasion novel for me would be Niven and Pournelle's FOOTFALL- it's totally realistic and awesome, a must read (a race of not so-advanced aliens invades Earth and nearly enslaves the world until the U.S. military creates an ingenous spaceship- with nukes for propulsion- to take down the Alien mothership).

I read that book a long time ago. Interesting scenario, although, if I remember correctly, the aliens had some similarities with elephants. Am I remembering that right?

[Commander Freyr]

Well the aleins would probable be able to sit in our orbit and blow the crap out of us. Though the US does have many many secrets. The former head of skunk works (the company that produces much of the militarys vehicles and such) said "you have seen Star trek? Ya we have been there and done that". So perhaps we ahve our own ships waiting to give the aliens a suprise.

[The Comrade]

like lazer beam aliens and stupid crap like that?

[David Kelly]

I'm thinking ether the war ends badly for us or takes the "Lizard Tel- whatever we're called" rout.

[cap'n queasy]

thundertaker wrote: Well, I think any aliens that have the technical know-how to master intergalactic space travel will probably have weapons tech that makes our most advanced weapons tech look like a stone-age club, and the resulting battle wouldn't be so much a battle as a massacre (think The Battle of Omdurman x1000) so yes, I think in all probability they would be able to get the better of all the world's militaries (I don't know why you only included the US military in your hypothetical discussion, I think all of humanity would have a stake in trying to repel the alien invaders don't you?!?)

Why would they even come here if this wasn't the fact of the matter? I know I wouldn't travel light years only to get my ass kicked, I would make sure I had the means and plan to accomplish the task at hand. I would presume that aliens that had mastered intergalactic travel would do a much better job at planning it all out than we would defending the earth with no preparation at all. I'm pretty sure they would be able to destroy our cities while they sit safely in space. They would probably use biological agents to wipe us all out anyway. Unless they want to eat us or something.

I agree, we wouldn't stand much of a chance.

But maybe our descendants will get to run some casinos on Reservation Earth if we are lucky and they are friendly aliens. :lol:

[cap'n queasy]

Commander Freyr wrote: Well the aleins would probable be able to sit in our orbit and blow the crap out of us. Though the US does have many many secrets. The former head of skunk works (the company that produces much of the militarys vehicles and such) said "you have seen Star trek? Ya we have been there and done that". So perhaps we ahve our own ships waiting to give the aliens a suprise.

If you are expecting the US military to beam soldiers up on the alien spacecraft prepare to be disappointed. :lol:

Unless they have a Romulan Bird of Prey stashed at Roswell or something we would be in big trouble ! :-D