Political Crossfire Forums

[TrussenDK]

Due to the recent middle east crisis, i ask you. Is it possible to defeat a militia who is deeply rooted in and backed by the civilian population surrounding it.
Quote:
Are Israel's Attacks Winning New Support for Hizballah?
On Scene: Instead of blaming Hizballah for the havoc being wreaked upon south Lebanon, many are rallying behind the militant group for the first time
By NICHOLAS BLANFORD/TYRE

Posted Thursday, Jul. 27, 2006
If Israel really believed its fiery campaign against Hizballah in South Lebanon would help turn the local population against the militant Shi'ite group, all indications are that the death and destruction being rained down is having quite the opposite effect. That much was painfully clear Wednesday after an Israeli jet returned to bomb the center of this — until now — relatively safe coastal town for the first time in 10 days, and a new generation of Hizballah supporters was born

At least two precision guided missiles, used by the Israeli Air Force to flatten houses throughout south Lebanon, pancaked a six-story apartment block down a narrow street in the heart of Tyre. A huge pall of yellow smoke and dust rose above the town, marking the spot where the bombs have fallen. All that was left of the building was a sprawling pile of rubble mixed with the pathetic detritus of people’s destroyed homes — broken tables, a lamp, half a sofa, torn books, clothing.

A crowd of onlookers gathered at the entrance to the narrow, rubble-strewn street, gazing initially in wide-eyed awe at the smoke-filled scene before them. Then they too were stirred by fury. “With our souls and our blood we will sacrifice ourselves for you, O Nasrallah,” they chanted in homage to Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hizballah’s leader. “Death to Israel and America,” yelled another man standing on a slab of concrete above the crowd.

Until the recent attacks, Hizballah has never really gained a strong following in Tyre. The local people are too laid-back for the Islamic party’s zealotry, preferring instead an easy life lolling in the shade, eating fresh fried fish and slaking their thirst with chilled bottles of Lebanese beer. But that nonchalance is changing with each passing day of Israel’s onslaught against south Lebanon. Slowly but surely, Tyre’s residents are becoming radicalized.

The scene in front of them was all the motivation they apparently needed. Thick orange flames darted from between cracks in the rubble as rescue workers pulled apart blocks of smashed concrete to look for survivors and recover the dead, choking all the while on the noxious fumes from the explosion and the roiling clouds of dust and smoke.

A sudden panic swept through the crowd and it surged away from the site, stumbling over the foot-high debris in the street. An unexploded missile? Israeli jets coming back? Moments later they cautiously returned as a fireman helped by dozens of youths unfurled a hose pipe and begins dousing the flames. But who or what was the target of this devastating air strike?

“Only civilians live here. There is no Hizballah. Why did they hit us?” asks Mustafa Hashem, a diamond merchant whose uncle lives in an adjacent building. But the street looks familiar to this reporter, who interviewed Sheikh Nabil Qaouk, Hizballah’s southern commander, several years ago in his office in a building located where the missile-struck block stood. At the beginning of the campaign, Israeli jets bombed Qaouk’s home in the village of Jibsheet, a few miles to the north of here. But Qaouk has apparently gone into hiding with other top leaders, which perhaps explains the lack of fatalities.

Ghassan Farran, a doctor and head of a local cultural organization called Thought and Culture, stares at the ruins of his home in disbelief. His apartment was on the third floor, although fortunately his family had fled Tyre days earlier. Dr. Farran says he is looking for his family photograph albums, but all he can do is gaze hopelessly at the scene of devastation before him. “All of my memories are gone, when my children were babies. They have killed my dreams,” he says.

But then this middle-class, educated professional switches from melancholy to trembling rage. “America, America!” he says, jabbing his finger at the smoking rubble. “This is the new Middle East of Ms. Rice,” he says, referring to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. He adds that he was never interested in politics before this moment. “Now I am with Hizballah and I will fight Israel and America."


It would seam that in terms of defeating hezbollah, the bombings are counterproductive since support is rising in favour of hezbollah and their actions. So hezbollah is actually growing stronger with every bomb that falls. IMO, hezbollah will be the only one coming stronger out of this crisis then going in.

[thatisnotme]

TrussenDK wrote: Due to the recent middle east crisis, i ask you. Is it possible to defeat a militia who is deeply rooted in and backed by the civilian population surrounding it.
Quote:
Are Israel's Attacks Winning New Support for Hizballah?
On Scene: Instead of blaming Hizballah for the havoc being wreaked upon south Lebanon, many are rallying behind the militant group for the first time
By NICHOLAS BLANFORD/TYRE

Posted Thursday, Jul. 27, 2006
If Israel really believed its fiery campaign against Hizballah in South Lebanon would help turn the local population against the militant Shi'ite group, all indications are that the death and destruction being rained down is having quite the opposite effect. That much was painfully clear Wednesday after an Israeli jet returned to bomb the center of this — until now — relatively safe coastal town for the first time in 10 days, and a new generation of Hizballah supporters was born

At least two precision guided missiles, used by the Israeli Air Force to flatten houses throughout south Lebanon, pancaked a six-story apartment block down a narrow street in the heart of Tyre. A huge pall of yellow smoke and dust rose above the town, marking the spot where the bombs have fallen. All that was left of the building was a sprawling pile of rubble mixed with the pathetic detritus of people’s destroyed homes — broken tables, a lamp, half a sofa, torn books, clothing.

A crowd of onlookers gathered at the entrance to the narrow, rubble-strewn street, gazing initially in wide-eyed awe at the smoke-filled scene before them. Then they too were stirred by fury. “With our souls and our blood we will sacrifice ourselves for you, O Nasrallah,” they chanted in homage to Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hizballah’s leader. “Death to Israel and America,” yelled another man standing on a slab of concrete above the crowd.

Until the recent attacks, Hizballah has never really gained a strong following in Tyre. The local people are too laid-back for the Islamic party’s zealotry, preferring instead an easy life lolling in the shade, eating fresh fried fish and slaking their thirst with chilled bottles of Lebanese beer. But that nonchalance is changing with each passing day of Israel’s onslaught against south Lebanon. Slowly but surely, Tyre’s residents are becoming radicalized.

The scene in front of them was all the motivation they apparently needed. Thick orange flames darted from between cracks in the rubble as rescue workers pulled apart blocks of smashed concrete to look for survivors and recover the dead, choking all the while on the noxious fumes from the explosion and the roiling clouds of dust and smoke.

A sudden panic swept through the crowd and it surged away from the site, stumbling over the foot-high debris in the street. An unexploded missile? Israeli jets coming back? Moments later they cautiously returned as a fireman helped by dozens of youths unfurled a hose pipe and begins dousing the flames. But who or what was the target of this devastating air strike?

“Only civilians live here. There is no Hizballah. Why did they hit us?” asks Mustafa Hashem, a diamond merchant whose uncle lives in an adjacent building. But the street looks familiar to this reporter, who interviewed Sheikh Nabil Qaouk, Hizballah’s southern commander, several years ago in his office in a building located where the missile-struck block stood. At the beginning of the campaign, Israeli jets bombed Qaouk’s home in the village of Jibsheet, a few miles to the north of here. But Qaouk has apparently gone into hiding with other top leaders, which perhaps explains the lack of fatalities.

Ghassan Farran, a doctor and head of a local cultural organization called Thought and Culture, stares at the ruins of his home in disbelief. His apartment was on the third floor, although fortunately his family had fled Tyre days earlier. Dr. Farran says he is looking for his family photograph albums, but all he can do is gaze hopelessly at the scene of devastation before him. “All of my memories are gone, when my children were babies. They have killed my dreams,” he says.

But then this middle-class, educated professional switches from melancholy to trembling rage. “America, America!” he says, jabbing his finger at the smoking rubble. “This is the new Middle East of Ms. Rice,” he says, referring to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. He adds that he was never interested in politics before this moment. “Now I am with Hizballah and I will fight Israel and America."


It would seam that in terms of defeating hezbollah, the bombings are counterproductive since support is rising in favour of hezbollah and their actions. So hezbollah is actually growing stronger with every bomb that falls. IMO, hezbollah will be the only one coming stronger out of this crisis then going in.

It will be a pyrrhic victory. Most likely, no matter what, Hezbollah will claim a win publicly, but privately, they will know the cost for taking Israeli soldiers as hostages. They will realize that their miscalculation came at a very high price.

[superskippy]

Yes of course it's possible, it's just hard and bloody. The bulk of all guerilla campaigns regardless of how supported they are by the civilian population, in the end fails. As long as the power at hand has the will to take it all the way for quite a few years then it almost always becomes inevitable. We never really hear about or read up on the guerilla campaigns that have failed in this modern century, even those that have very deep roots in the population. Kenya, Malaysia, Chechnya, Poland, Ireland, India, dozens in Africa, dozens in South America, Yemen, and to a great extent the Palestinians as well as many others. But the few that do succeed have just the right conditions and armed force to do it.

Thats my view anyways.

[skinn]

if you mean Hizbollah by you question:
No, israel can never beat hizbollah unless they are ready to lose thousands of there soldiers.
Until then, hizbollah is favourite to win.

[Plato & Socrates]

THE ANSWER IS A CATEGORICAL NO!
UNLESS ISRAEL IS PREPARED TO COMMIT
WAR-CRIMES OF GENOCIDAL PROPORTIONS,
NOT A F**KING CHANCE IN HELL!

[Onevote]

TrussenDK wrote: Due to the recent middle east crisis, i ask you. Is it possible to defeat a militia who is deeply rooted in and backed by the civilian population surrounding it.
Quote:
Are Israel's Attacks Winning New Support for Hizballah?
On Scene: Instead of blaming Hizballah for the havoc being wreaked upon south Lebanon, many are rallying behind the militant group for the first time
By NICHOLAS BLANFORD/TYRE

Posted Thursday, Jul. 27, 2006
If Israel really believed its fiery campaign against Hizballah in South Lebanon would help turn the local population against the militant Shi'ite group, all indications are that the death and destruction being rained down is having quite the opposite effect. That much was painfully clear Wednesday after an Israeli jet returned to bomb the center of this — until now — relatively safe coastal town for the first time in 10 days, and a new generation of Hizballah supporters was born

At least two precision guided missiles, used by the Israeli Air Force to flatten houses throughout south Lebanon, pancaked a six-story apartment block down a narrow street in the heart of Tyre. A huge pall of yellow smoke and dust rose above the town, marking the spot where the bombs have fallen. All that was left of the building was a sprawling pile of rubble mixed with the pathetic detritus of people’s destroyed homes — broken tables, a lamp, half a sofa, torn books, clothing.

A crowd of onlookers gathered at the entrance to the narrow, rubble-strewn street, gazing initially in wide-eyed awe at the smoke-filled scene before them. Then they too were stirred by fury. “With our souls and our blood we will sacrifice ourselves for you, O Nasrallah," they chanted in homage to Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hizballah’s leader. “Death to Israel and America," yelled another man standing on a slab of concrete above the crowd.

Until the recent attacks, Hizballah has never really gained a strong following in Tyre. The local people are too laid-back for the Islamic party’s zealotry, preferring instead an easy life lolling in the shade, eating fresh fried fish and slaking their thirst with chilled bottles of Lebanese beer. But that nonchalance is changing with each passing day of Israel’s onslaught against south Lebanon. Slowly but surely, Tyre’s residents are becoming radicalized.

The scene in front of them was all the motivation they apparently needed. Thick orange flames darted from between cracks in the rubble as rescue workers pulled apart blocks of smashed concrete to look for survivors and recover the dead, choking all the while on the noxious fumes from the explosion and the roiling clouds of dust and smoke.

A sudden panic swept through the crowd and it surged away from the site, stumbling over the foot-high debris in the street. An unexploded missile? Israeli jets coming back? Moments later they cautiously returned as a fireman helped by dozens of youths unfurled a hose pipe and begins dousing the flames. But who or what was the target of this devastating air strike?

“Only civilians live here. There is no Hizballah. Why did they hit us?" asks Mustafa Hashem, a diamond merchant whose uncle lives in an adjacent building. But the street looks familiar to this reporter, who interviewed Sheikh Nabil Qaouk, Hizballah’s southern commander, several years ago in his office in a building located where the missile-struck block stood. At the beginning of the campaign, Israeli jets bombed Qaouk’s home in the village of Jibsheet, a few miles to the north of here. But Qaouk has apparently gone into hiding with other top leaders, which perhaps explains the lack of fatalities.

Ghassan Farran, a doctor and head of a local cultural organization called Thought and Culture, stares at the ruins of his home in disbelief. His apartment was on the third floor, although fortunately his family had fled Tyre days earlier. Dr. Farran says he is looking for his family photograph albums, but all he can do is gaze hopelessly at the scene of devastation before him. “All of my memories are gone, when my children were babies. They have killed my dreams," he says.

But then this middle-class, educated professional switches from melancholy to trembling rage. “America, America!" he says, jabbing his finger at the smoking rubble. “This is the new Middle East of Ms. Rice," he says, referring to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. He adds that he was never interested in politics before this moment. “Now I am with Hizballah and I will fight Israel and America."


It would seam that in terms of defeating hezbollah, the bombings are counterproductive since support is rising in favour of hezbollah and their actions. So hezbollah is actually growing stronger with every bomb that falls. IMO, hezbollah will be the only one coming stronger out of this crisis then going in. Yes you can beat a militia, but you must be willing to kill everyone, Women, Children, Etc. in order to break the will to fight. Most Countries aren't willing to do that. Instead they end up killing a small number of civilians, galvanizing support for the militia and making recruiting that much easier. I.E, Iraq!

[ATrow]

TrussenDK wrote: Due to the recent middle east crisis, i ask you. Is it possible to defeat a militia who is deeply rooted in and backed by the civilian population surrounding it.


No, not in the traditional sense anyway. You can kill a man, but you can't kill an enemy. Not when it has wide support. You kill a terrorist, but now his son is your new enemy. You may kill the son, but his brother will replace him. The more the deaths there are the more each generation is commited to revenge.

So no. You cannot defeat them from a military standpoint. Short of glassing over the rest of the world with nukes, you cannot defeat a terrorist organization. You have win them over and reconcile.

[TheKrava]

superskippy wrote: Yes of course it's possible, it's just hard and bloody. The bulk of all guerilla campaigns regardless of how supported they are by the civilian population, in the end fails. As long as the power at hand has the will to take it all the way for quite a few years then it almost always becomes inevitable. We never really hear about or read up on the guerilla campaigns that have failed in this modern century, even those that have very deep roots in the population. Kenya, Malaysia, Chechnya, Poland, Ireland, India, dozens in Africa, dozens in South America, Yemen, and to a great extent the Palestinians as well as many others. But the few that do succeed have just the right conditions and armed force to do it.

Thats my view anyways.

Well, you missed a few more countries where guerilla compaigns actually worked - the whole Eastern Europe during the WWII. Guerilla compaigns also could be called - partisan war. ;)

For you they are terrorists. For Palestinians and the rest of arab war - terrorists are partisans who partisipate in the war against occupier, Israel. ;)

Also, it seems to me palestinians 'terrorists' or partisans have been pretty successful so far. :)

[Nico]

TrussenDK, you answered your own question by listing why a militia survives; the support of locals.
You can't defeat them in the field, even if you kill every single person carrying a rifle, because their power is in the feelings of the people. as soon as the kid whose father was killed grows up, he gets the rifle out of the basement and continues.

So you change the way the locals percieve you as their enemy. If you make their life misery, they repay you with misery. If you give them a life, they repay the same.


The problem is that those with power over the weak erroneously think the best way to manage them is by putting a thumb on them.

[superskippy]

TheKrava wrote: superskippy wrote: Yes of course it's possible, it's just hard and bloody. The bulk of all guerilla campaigns regardless of how supported they are by the civilian population, in the end fails. As long as the power at hand has the will to take it all the way for quite a few years then it almost always becomes inevitable. We never really hear about or read up on the guerilla campaigns that have failed in this modern century, even those that have very deep roots in the population. Kenya, Malaysia, Chechnya, Poland, Ireland, India, dozens in Africa, dozens in South America, Yemen, and to a great extent the Palestinians as well as many others. But the few that do succeed have just the right conditions and armed force to do it.

Thats my view anyways.

Well, you missed a few more countries where guerilla compaigns actually worked - the whole Eastern Europe during the WWII. Guerilla compaigns also could be called - partisan war. ;)

For you they are terrorists. For Palestinians and the rest of arab war - terrorists are partisans who partisipate in the war against occupier, Israel. ;)

Also, it seems to me palestinians 'terrorists' or partisans have been pretty successful so far. :)

But the main point that deflates much of that argument is that the Partisans didnt win the war in those areas. What evicted the Germans from Eastern Europe was not the partisans, it was the Soviet war machine that grinded through the Wermacht.

Also in causing casualties the Palestinians have been succesful. As for achieving their stated goals they have met with nothing but death and denial.

[Nico]

superskippy wrote:

But the main point that deflates much of that argument is that the Partisans didnt win the war in those areas. What evicted the Germans from Eastern Europe was not the partisans, it was the Soviet war machine that grinded through the Wermacht.

Also in causing casualties the Palestinians have been succesful. As for achieving their stated goals they have met with nothing but death and denial.


The partisans won in Yugoslavia on a large scale and caused massive logistical problems in much of eastern europe, although not winning outright in most places except the afore mentioned balkans.


The palestinians have made big mistakes in targetting civilians in attacks, but this is the same mistakes Israel makes when putting down palestinians where they live. While Israel never has a stated aim of targeting civilians, it regularly employs methods which cost large numbers of civilian lives.


When the germans arrived in Ukraine they were met by many locals as heros. This feeling they squandered on a massive scale in their treatment of the local populations. Israel can't be only the fist; it also has to be the thing that helps people if it wants to stanfd a chance of defining itslf for a long term relationship with the Palestinians, which is inevitable.

The immediate problem is that the ill-will is going to last for a while, and can only be diluted, not eliminated. That's where both sides have to swallow pride and get through the inevitable setbacks, be they originating from one side or the other.

[superskippy]

Quote: The partisans won in Yugoslavia on a large scale and caused massive logistical problems in much of eastern europe, although not winning outright in most places except the afore mentioned balkans.

Of course I forgot to mention Yugoslavia, though circumstances and early fellowship with the Soviets I dont think you would doubt aided considerably in their victory and a lack of Soviet troops entering the region.

[Plato & Socrates]

superskippy wrote: Quote: The partisans won in Yugoslavia on a large scale and caused massive logistical problems in much of eastern europe, although not winning outright in most places except the afore mentioned balkans.

Of course I forgot to mention Yugoslavia, though circumstances and early fellowship with the Soviets I dont think you would doubt aided considerably in their victory and a lack of Soviet troops entering the region.

How long have you been fighting the Palestinians skippy? Your kill ratio is almost 4 to 1 in your favour, they live in some parts in absolute squalor. Yet there support and more importantly recruitment and retention levels are sky high.

You Israeli's just don't get it or understand do you. :roll: Its 60 years of fighting and you have'nt learned hardly a thing. Forget from 1945 to the 67 war. From post 67 war to date, Israel should have learned her most important lessons regarding the Palestinians. Yet you are still as naive.

You guys thought you was just going to stroll in southern Lebanon and squat Hizbollah.
So botched has your intelligence been, as a whole, including Hizbollah's strength, and Israels short sightedness in bombing civilians.

How many recruits have you sent running to join Hizbollah? Israels government and a sizable proportion of her public who support it, there stupidity knows no bounds.

As for your view that the guerrilla campaign in Ireland was defeated. What guerrilla campaign and who told you that?

[SaladFingers]

Plato & Socrates wrote: superskippy wrote: Quote: The partisans won in Yugoslavia on a large scale and caused massive logistical problems in much of eastern europe, although not winning outright in most places except the afore mentioned balkans.

Of course I forgot to mention Yugoslavia, though circumstances and early fellowship with the Soviets I dont think you would doubt aided considerably in their victory and a lack of Soviet troops entering the region.

How long have you been fighting the Palestinians skippy? Your kill ratio is almost 4 to 1 in your favour, they live in some parts in absolute squalor. Yet there support and more importantly recruitment and retention levels are sky high.

You Israeli's just don't get it or understand do you. :roll: Its 60 years of fighting and you have'nt learned hardly a thing. Forget from 1945 to the 67 war. From post 67 war to date, Israel should have learned her most important lessons regarding the Palestinians. Yet you are still as naive.

You guys thought you was just going to stroll in southern Lebanon and squat Hizbollah.
So botched has your intelligence been, as a whole, including Hizbollah's strength, and Israels short sightedness in bombing civilians.

How many recruits have you sent running to join Hizbollah? Israels government and a sizable proportion of her public who support it, there stupidity knows no bounds.

As for your view that the guerrilla campaign in Ireland was defeated. What guerrilla campaign and who told you that?

Israel's key to winning is creating barriers and de-militarization zones. With this scuffle in Southern Lebannon we will most likely see a demilitarization zone similar to N and S Korea. Especially once the UN and US finish building up the Lebannese gov. and increase their power.

Once Israel's seperation barrier is complete, they can shift focus into tightening internal security from crazed Islamo-facist terrorists.

[Plato & Socrates]

Salad fingers wrote: Israel's key to winning is creating barriers and de-militarization zones. With this scuffle in Southern Lebannon we will most likely see a demilitarization zone similar to N and S Korea. Especially once the UN and US finish building up the Lebannese gov. and increase their power.

Once Israel's seperation barrier is complete, they can shift focus into tightening internal security from crazed Islamo-facist terrorists.

I bet you it wont work? You like so many others, completely miss the point.

[SaladFingers]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Salad fingers wrote: Israel's key to winning is creating barriers and de-militarization zones. With this scuffle in Southern Lebannon we will most likely see a demilitarization zone similar to N and S Korea. Especially once the UN and US finish building up the Lebannese gov. and increase their power.

Once Israel's seperation barrier is complete, they can shift focus into tightening internal security from crazed Islamo-facist terrorists.

I bet you it wont work? You like so many others, completely miss the point.

What point is that?.. the fact that there will never be peace in the middle east?

Even if you recognize the faults of both Israelis and their arab neighbors, what would you do? Too many political agendas both friendly, and enemy, work against any peace keeping process.

Even if the Arabs pushed the Jews into the sea, what would happen next? For the terrorists to maintain their power and support, they'd have to go on to say that vengeance must be taken on the aryan peoples of Europe and America...

I'd be willing to wager that demilitarization zones would work, as American/UN controlled governments behave like good dogs. It's apparent in how the Lebannese president speaks, that the collar + leash are tightening around his neck.

Of course, with Al Qaeda entering the region, I'm sure they'd persuade the government to obey them, or they'll start a coop to change things.

Two dogs will always fight, wrapping bubble wrap around them reduces the damage... but you if try to unwire their brains to prevent them from fighting, either youll worsen their anger, or create new problems.

It's a lose-lose in the middle east. It's just going to have to be accepted that the Jews aren't going anywhere, and the more the Arabs fight back thinking they are going to win, they will be the ones in the end, that feel the greatest sting.

I remember listening to a guest speaker once at Iowa State University, talking hypothetically about the Middle East. Even if you removed the Jews from Israel. The next problem would be arabs hating other arabs. Shiite against Sunni, it's fighting and hatred thats lasted way longer then the establishment of Israel.

One Islamic theocracy on another oppressed different groups of people, and so it goes on and on... so the answer is.. there is no answer for resolving peace in the middle east.. its a powder keg that needs to explode, resulting in millions of casualties, in the aftermath, a superpower needs to move in and oppress people.

This current trend of having 4-5 powerful countries in the ME cannot stand, there must be 1 or 2 super powers that control the middle east and stabilize the region.

[TrussenDK]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies!

superskippy wrote: Yes of course it's possible, it's just hard and bloody. The bulk of all guerilla campaigns regardless of how supported they are by the civilian population, in the end fails. As long as the power at hand has the will to take it all the way for quite a few years then it almost always becomes inevitable. We never really hear about or read up on the guerilla campaigns that have failed in this modern century, even those that have very deep roots in the population. Kenya, Malaysia, Chechnya, Poland, Ireland, India, dozens in Africa, dozens in South America, Yemen, and to a great extent the Palestinians as well as many others. But the few that do succeed have just the right conditions and armed force to do it.

Thats my view anyways.

Well, OK skippy. Militias have failed in the past, but in terms of Israel in Lebanon, do you think that the current state of things are counterproductive to a more peace-full future for northern Israel. You said that in order to defeat a militia you would have to commit to a long and gritty campaign. Do you think that anyone in the Israeli government has such a campaign in mind, or do you think as i do that Hezbollah will come out of this stronger then going in, and the fragile Lebanese government weakened. I doubt that Hezbollah will lay down there weapons anytime soon. What positive outcome do you predict this conflict ending with?

[Pelagius]

Plato & Socrates wrote: THE ANSWER IS A CATEGORICAL NO!
UNLESS ISRAEL IS PREPARED TO COMMIT
WAR-CRIMES OF GENOCIDAL PROPORTIONS,
NOT A F**KING CHANCE IN HELL!

When it comes to defeating terror that's entirely justified. When the population supports terror they make themselves a legitimate target for collective punishment.

[ukgirl]

In answer to your initial question on this thread.

Probably not, but human and animal instinct is to at least try to protect your life.

Can a deer run as fast as a cheetah?

They could do nothing I suppose and just wait like sitting ducks for the next attack taking aspirin which would please the Europeans, or they can attempt to cut out the cancer from the depths and risk killing some good cells in the process

Unfortunately Israel are in a position of

Damned if they do and damned if they don't ..

Very sad for them and all the innocent victims on both sides.

[Plato & Socrates]

TrussenDK wrote: Hey guys, thanks for all the replies!

superskippy wrote: Yes of course it's possible, it's just hard and bloody. The bulk of all guerilla campaigns regardless of how supported they are by the civilian population, in the end fails. As long as the power at hand has the will to take it all the way for quite a few years then it almost always becomes inevitable. We never really hear about or read up on the guerilla campaigns that have failed in this modern century, even those that have very deep roots in the population. Kenya, Malaysia, Chechnya, Poland, Ireland, India, dozens in Africa, dozens in South America, Yemen, and to a great extent the Palestinians as well as many others. But the few that do succeed have just the right conditions and armed force to do it.

Thats my view anyways.

Well, OK skippy. Militias have failed in the past, but in terms of Israel in Lebanon, do you think that the current state of things are counterproductive to a more peace-full future for northern Israel. You said that in order to defeat a militia you would have to commit to a long and gritty campaign. Do you think that anyone in the Israeli government has such a campaign in mind, or do you think as i do that Hezbollah will come out of this stronger then going in, and the fragile Lebanese government weakened. I doubt that Hezbollah will lay down there weapons anytime soon. What positive outcome do you predict this conflict ending with?

No no my friend, you let amnesia boy Skippy off to lightly. You should ask him what was Israels 18 year occupation and military campaign against Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon? "A long and gritty campaign" and a complete waste of time, money and dead Israeli soldiers, who should have been alive today. Enjoying life, family and a future, instead of buried in a cemetery, due to the utterly failed policies of there countrys leaders.