Political Crossfire Forums

Anyis · Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 64

Throughout the history of humanity, man-kind, as a whole, has never hesitated to manipulate facts/truth if it server their purpose and benefits them in some way. Many times in the past and even today, people who call themselves 'religious' / 'children of God' commit uncivilized acts. Many times the crimes are commited in the name of God. During the early years of the organization of the Catholic Church, Popes often fought with Feudal Lords over power and money. The Catholic Church also SOLD (forgot the term) documents to the serfs and lower classes, which allowed for the automatic entry into purgatory and eventually heaven. The Catholic Church originally tried to even stamp out science, by trying and killing many 'heretics' who tried to make great strives in astronomy, physics, and other science; until after enough people began to revolt against the Churh (through actual revolt and the publish of scientific discoveries), that the Church suddenly changed their opinion from one that 'God made all things and Science is herecy' to 'God made all things and Science is in accordence with God's plan'. The Catholic Church has killed many innocent people, has blatently lied to many of its followers, has tried to destroy the development of the sciences ann the education of its people. So my question is how can people support an organization with such a dark past?
If man is such a fallable being, then why use him as a middle man to connect to God? Why must people go to Church and Sunday School every Sunday to be good Catholic Christians? This question can be asked of any practicing, organized religious group. Do you feel that God intended for his children to be subdued and decieved by the his fellow brother? Why not stay at the house on Sunday and read the bible to yourselves and converse and pray together? Why not interpret the bible FOR YOURSELF? Why go to Church twice a week and have someone else tell you what the message of God is?

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

I am Catholic, but I will admit that I do not attend church. I believe in Jesus Christ though my own faith, not the faith of my religion. I am Catholic because it is what I believe, not what I am told to believe. The same choice is there for any individual.

As for God's intention... God is above any mortal man, and such mortal men could never know God's intention let alone His actions or His power. We can, however, know his message; though we may never truly understand it.

Pi_314 · Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 95

LostSoul3412 wrote: I am Catholic, but I will admit that I do not attend church. I believe in Jesus Christ though my own faith, not the faith of my religion. I am Catholic because it is what I believe, not what I am told to believe. The same choice is there for any individual.

As for God's intention... God is above any mortal man, and such mortal men could never know God's intention let alone His actions or His power. We can, however, know his message; though we may never truly understand it.

Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

james_bond755 · Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 135 Location: British Columbia

Once every few years comes along a schmuck who writes a big book, talking about big issues and how everything was a conspiracy. Then the masses see it on the news and they all flock to their nearest book store and support the authours already massive fortune. I say, keep an extremely open mind. Don't read something bombastic and believe everything that is written there. Lets face it, everybody loves a conspiracy, mystery, etc.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

LostSoul3412 wrote: Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Science provides reason beyond the bounds of faith. Science is reality.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3396 Location: Tulsa, OK

Ek0nomik wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Science provides reason beyond the bounds of faith. Science is reality. Indeed.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

LostSoul3412 wrote: Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Faith spends doubt to buy certainty.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5459 Location: Dreamland, NC

Ek0nomik wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Science provides reason beyond the bounds of faith. Science is reality.

If you believe in reason alone than you must believe man is no more than an animal.

But if you believe in the supernatural concepts of love, hope, and beauty then you can believe in the supernatural.

The Christian chooses to lift his head through the heavens not cram the heavens inside his head.

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

Ek0nomik wrote: LostSoul3412 wrote: Pi_314 wrote: Read this book - The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya, and you may question that Jesus ever lived.

Faith is belief beyond the bounds of reason.

Science provides reason beyond the bounds of faith. Science is reality.

Science is just as much a matter of belief as any religion.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 7657

Ek0nomik wrote: Science provides reason beyond the bounds of faith. Science is reality.

Irrationality is a requirement of humanity.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5459 Location: Dreamland, NC

Anyis wrote: Throughout the history of humanity, man-kind, as a whole, has never hesitated to manipulate facts/truth if it server their purpose and benefits them in some way. Many times in the past and even today, people who call themselves 'religious' / 'children of God' commit uncivilized acts. Many times the crimes are commited in the name of God. During the early years of the organization of the Catholic Church, Popes often fought with Feudal Lords over power and money. The Catholic Church also SOLD (forgot the term) documents to the serfs and lower classes, which allowed for the automatic entry into purgatory and eventually heaven. The Catholic Church originally tried to even stamp out science, by trying and killing many 'heretics' who tried to make great strives in astronomy, physics, and other science; until after enough people began to revolt against the Churh (through actual revolt and the publish of scientific discoveries), that the Church suddenly changed their opinion from one that 'God made all things and Science is herecy' to 'God made all things and Science is in accordence with God's plan'. The Catholic Church has killed many innocent people, has blatently lied to many of its followers, has tried to destroy the development of the sciences ann the education of its people. So my question is how can people support an organization with such a dark past?
If man is such a fallable being, then why use him as a middle man to connect to God? Why must people go to Church and Sunday School every Sunday to be good Catholic Christians? This question can be asked of any practicing, organized religious group. Do you feel that God intended for his children to be subdued and decieved by the his fellow brother? Why not stay at the house on Sunday and read the bible to yourselves and converse and pray together? Why not interpret the bible FOR YOURSELF? Why go to Church twice a week and have someone else tell you what the message of God is?

You go to church for the community. I know the individualistic and egotistical among you would like to believe that you go to church to somehow buy points into salvation. This is not the case.

The Christian is supposed to attend Church for the community not for himself. You go to church because you are a member of the body of christ and it your duty to commune with the community. While you the individual may not have any life changing situation going on you dont know if the person sitting next to you hasn't lost a father or found out that they have breast cancer. You are supposed to go to church for the very reason that it is not for you. Those people suffering find comfort in the fact that they are in the holy presence of God and are in the presence of people who love them without condition.

Can you get that kind of hope sitting at home alone? No you can't and I am proud to go to church to help those people who need it desperately.

Anyis · Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 64

politicalmojo wrote: Anyis wrote: Throughout the history of humanity, man-kind, as a whole, has never hesitated to manipulate facts/truth if it server their purpose and benefits them in some way. Many times in the past and even today, people who call themselves 'religious' / 'children of God' commit uncivilized acts. Many times the crimes are commited in the name of God. During the early years of the organization of the Catholic Church, Popes often fought with Feudal Lords over power and money. The Catholic Church also SOLD (forgot the term) documents to the serfs and lower classes, which allowed for the automatic entry into purgatory and eventually heaven. The Catholic Church originally tried to even stamp out science, by trying and killing many 'heretics' who tried to make great strives in astronomy, physics, and other science; until after enough people began to revolt against the Churh (through actual revolt and the publish of scientific discoveries), that the Church suddenly changed their opinion from one that 'God made all things and Science is herecy' to 'God made all things and Science is in accordence with God's plan'. The Catholic Church has killed many innocent people, has blatently lied to many of its followers, has tried to destroy the development of the sciences ann the education of its people. So my question is how can people support an organization with such a dark past?
If man is such a fallable being, then why use him as a middle man to connect to God? Why must people go to Church and Sunday School every Sunday to be good Catholic Christians? This question can be asked of any practicing, organized religious group. Do you feel that God intended for his children to be subdued and decieved by the his fellow brother? Why not stay at the house on Sunday and read the bible to yourselves and converse and pray together? Why not interpret the bible FOR YOURSELF? Why go to Church twice a week and have someone else tell you what the message of God is?

You go to church for the community. I know the individualistic and egotistical among you would like to believe that you go to church to somehow buy points into salvation. This is not the case.

The Christian is supposed to attend Church for the community not for himself. You go to church because you are a member of the body of christ and it your duty to commune with the community. While you the individual may not have any life changing situation going on you dont know if the person sitting next to you hasn't lost a father or found out that they have breast cancer. You are supposed to go to church for the very reason that it is not for you. Those people suffering find comfort in the fact that they are in the holy presence of God and are in the presence of people who love them without condition.

Can you get that kind of hope sitting at home alone? No you can't and I am proud to go to church to help those people who need it desperately.

Yes!! Yes!! That was the answer I was looking for! I have often heard people talking about their faith...as if they are bragging about going to Church; as if they have been so devoted that they will be admitted into heaven. I was hopping for an answer like this. Thank you.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5459 Location: Dreamland, NC

Anyis wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Anyis wrote: Throughout the history of humanity, man-kind, as a whole, has never hesitated to manipulate facts/truth if it server their purpose and benefits them in some way. Many times in the past and even today, people who call themselves 'religious' / 'children of God' commit uncivilized acts. Many times the crimes are commited in the name of God. During the early years of the organization of the Catholic Church, Popes often fought with Feudal Lords over power and money. The Catholic Church also SOLD (forgot the term) documents to the serfs and lower classes, which allowed for the automatic entry into purgatory and eventually heaven. The Catholic Church originally tried to even stamp out science, by trying and killing many 'heretics' who tried to make great strives in astronomy, physics, and other science; until after enough people began to revolt against the Churh (through actual revolt and the publish of scientific discoveries), that the Church suddenly changed their opinion from one that 'God made all things and Science is herecy' to 'God made all things and Science is in accordence with God's plan'. The Catholic Church has killed many innocent people, has blatently lied to many of its followers, has tried to destroy the development of the sciences ann the education of its people. So my question is how can people support an organization with such a dark past?
If man is such a fallable being, then why use him as a middle man to connect to God? Why must people go to Church and Sunday School every Sunday to be good Catholic Christians? This question can be asked of any practicing, organized religious group. Do you feel that God intended for his children to be subdued and decieved by the his fellow brother? Why not stay at the house on Sunday and read the bible to yourselves and converse and pray together? Why not interpret the bible FOR YOURSELF? Why go to Church twice a week and have someone else tell you what the message of God is?

You go to church for the community. I know the individualistic and egotistical among you would like to believe that you go to church to somehow buy points into salvation. This is not the case.

The Christian is supposed to attend Church for the community not for himself. You go to church because you are a member of the body of christ and it your duty to commune with the community. While you the individual may not have any life changing situation going on you dont know if the person sitting next to you hasn't lost a father or found out that they have breast cancer. You are supposed to go to church for the very reason that it is not for you. Those people suffering find comfort in the fact that they are in the holy presence of God and are in the presence of people who love them without condition.

Can you get that kind of hope sitting at home alone? No you can't and I am proud to go to church to help those people who need it desperately.

Yes!! Yes!! That was the answer I was looking for! I have often heard people talking about their faith...as if they are bragging about going to Church; as if they have been so devoted that they will be admitted into heaven. I was hopping for an answer like this. Thank you.

I would also like to clarify some other key points in your argument. It was not uncommon for any organized institution to commit atrocites back then. That was the norm of the time. If you didn't like something you simply killed the opposition. But it must also be duly noted that Christianity was the institution that brought man out of this cycle of senseless violence.

Pope John Paul the second even gave a formal apology for all the people that died under Catholic persecution. This included Galileo and the crusades.

So yes I will be the first one to admit the catholic church was responsible for some horrible things but I would also like to proudly say that Catholicism was the very force that brought Europe out of the dark ages. Christianity was the very force that allows you to sit here and say those acts were unjust.

dtwizzy2k5 · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 467

Anyis wrote: Throughout the history of humanity, man-kind, as a whole, has never hesitated to manipulate facts/truth if it server their purpose and benefits them in some way. Many times in the past and even today, people who call themselves 'religious' / 'children of God' commit uncivilized acts. Many times the crimes are commited in the name of God. During the early years of the organization of the Catholic Church, Popes often fought with Feudal Lords over power and money. The Catholic Church also SOLD (forgot the term) documents to the serfs and lower classes, which allowed for the automatic entry into purgatory and eventually heaven. The Catholic Church originally tried to even stamp out science, by trying and killing many 'heretics' who tried to make great strives in astronomy, physics, and other science; until after enough people began to revolt against the Churh (through actual revolt and the publish of scientific discoveries), that the Church suddenly changed their opinion from one that 'God made all things and Science is herecy' to 'God made all things and Science is in accordence with God's plan'. The Catholic Church has killed many innocent people, has blatently lied to many of its followers, has tried to destroy the development of the sciences ann the education of its people. So my question is how can people support an organization with such a dark past?
If man is such a fallable being, then why use him as a middle man to connect to God? Why must people go to Church and Sunday School every Sunday to be good Catholic Christians? This question can be asked of any practicing, organized religious group. Do you feel that God intended for his children to be subdued and decieved by the his fellow brother? Why not stay at the house on Sunday and read the bible to yourselves and converse and pray together? Why not interpret the bible FOR YOURSELF? Why go to Church twice a week and have someone else tell you what the message of God is?

Correct me if im wrong, but you sound like a Protestant. Or at least, you have the same qualms as a Protestant.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

politicalmojo wrote: If you believe in reason alone than you must believe man is no more than an animal.

But if you believe in the supernatural concepts of love, hope, and beauty then you can believe in the supernatural.

The Christian chooses to lift his head through the heavens not cram the heavens inside his head.

Man is an animal. How can you have doubt about that?

I do believe in love, hope, and beauty. I don't believe it's supernatural though. I believe in free will.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3396 Location: Tulsa, OK

politicalmojo wrote: If you believe in reason alone than you must believe man is no more than an animal.
A highly sophisticated and magnificent animal.
politicalmojo wrote: But if you believe in the supernatural concepts of love, hope, and beauty then you can believe in the supernatural.
You do not have to extend supernaturalism to the concepts of love, hope and beauty to “believe” in them – that is absurd – you only have to experience life to believe in them. Love and hope are human emotions that we have been afforded through the evolutionary apex of psycho-biological evolution and beauty is a subjective interpretation of specific sensory information.
TreizeEnder wrote: Science is just as much a matter of belief as any religion.
We weren’t talking about belief but rather faith. Science does not require faith, religion does.

Azuresidus · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 183 Location: Somewhere Else.

JDHURF wrote:
TreizeEnder wrote: Science is just as much a matter of belief as any religion.
We weren’t talking about belief but rather faith. Science does not require faith, religion does.

Also, science requires that you question, test, present data, and use logic. None of that is required for religion. This is not meant to be derrogatory towards religion. But they are very different things. Yes, you can believe in your religion as much as I can believe in my science. But in the end, your belief is centered in faith and mine is centered in test results. Nothing against faith, but it's like comparing apples and oranges. And some people even like both.

When god's intentions are as clear as my test results tend to be, I'll jump on board with the faith crowd.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

Azuresidus wrote: JDHURF wrote:
TreizeEnder wrote: Science is just as much a matter of belief as any religion.
We weren’t talking about belief but rather faith. Science does not require faith, religion does.

Also, science requires that you question, test, present data, and use logic. None of that is required for religion. This is not meant to be derrogatory towards religion. But they are very different things. Yes, you can believe in your religion as much as I can believe in my science. But in the end, your belief is centered in faith and mine is centered in test results. Nothing against faith, but it's like comparing apples and oranges. And some people even like both.

When god's intentions are as clear as my test results tend to be, I'll jump on board with the faith crowd.

How can one even begin to understand Gods intentions?

I ask you this, what's more likely: The belief in a God which left no trace of His existence, or the belief that maybe God didn't even exist to begin with? Eye of the beholder I suppose.

Azuresidus · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 183 Location: Somewhere Else.

Ek0nomik wrote: Azuresidus wrote: JDHURF wrote:
TreizeEnder wrote: Science is just as much a matter of belief as any religion.
We weren’t talking about belief but rather faith. Science does not require faith, religion does.

Also, science requires that you question, test, present data, and use logic. None of that is required for religion. This is not meant to be derrogatory towards religion. But they are very different things. Yes, you can believe in your religion as much as I can believe in my science. But in the end, your belief is centered in faith and mine is centered in test results. Nothing against faith, but it's like comparing apples and oranges. And some people even like both.

When god's intentions are as clear as my test results tend to be, I'll jump on board with the faith crowd.

How can one even begin to understand Gods intentions?

Precisely. I don't presume to know anything about any gods. Well, there are a couple of cults out there that I presume to know are full of sh*t, but mostly I try to stay away from making absolute statements about things that I don't think that I can know about for certain. Mostly, this keeps me out of the religion zone.

Quote: I ask you this, what's more likely: The belief in a God which left no trace of His existence, or the belief that maybe God didn't even exist to begin with? Eye of the beholder I suppose.

Given the current evidence, I can't really say that either is more likely. There is nothing that I can look at and say, "Yes, there is a god." And there is nothing that I can look at and say the converse with absolute certainty either. This would be why I am not a follower of a god, nor am I an outright atheist. Others interpret the evidence differently, and they are welcome to do so. Not only that, but their interpretations are often quite interesting.