Political Crossfire Forums

Kindred · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: How do you view the economy?

Is there anything wrong with this picture? This view of the economy?

If so, what? If not, explain.

Simple.

yojimbo22 · Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 511 Location: London, UK

No modeling of Labour, Consumption, Investment, Savings, Government, R&D, Technology... Most importantly no account of how to deal with the Tragedy of the Commons, nor an attempt to explain the negative externalities associated with either of the two/six arrows... in fact, even the model by itself excludes attempted progress in preservation, which there is some of.

Plus it's just whining...

Free Thinkr · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:05 am Post subject:

It conveys no knowlege whatever, considering our ecosystem consists of everything that's not man-made.

Nathyn · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 7911 Location: The Great Satan

Kindred wrote:

Is there anything wrong with this picture? This view of the economy?

If so, what? If not, explain.

Simple.
The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

Kindred · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject:

yojimbo22 wrote: No modeling of Labour, Consumption, Investment, Savings, Government, R&D, Technology... Most importantly no account of how to deal with the Tragedy of the Commons, nor an attempt to explain the negative externalities associated with either of the two/six arrows... in fact, even the model by itself excludes attempted progress in preservation, which there is some of.

Plus it's just whining...

Well, it's a simply diagram, it doesn't aim to include all complexities of technology. What is important is the relationship between the 'ecosystem' and the 'economy'. Are their proportion correct for example? Should they be re-aranged somehow?

Kindred · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do you view the economy?

Nathyn wrote: Kindred wrote:

Is there anything wrong with this picture? This view of the economy?

If so, what? If not, explain.

Simple.
The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

You're wrong. The economy can not be molded into any shape the state pleases. There are massive limits, but what are they? What is the most limiting factor restricting what the economy can do?

LeopardPM · Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1226 Location: Arizona

Kindred wrote: Nathyn wrote: The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

You're wrong. The economy can not be molded into any shape the state pleases. There are massive limits, but what are they? What is the most limiting factor restricting what the economy can do?

The most limiting factor? Its also the best factor: that human beings are the vital force in the economy, with infinitely adaptable labor.

As far as what the state can do? well, all it can do is oppress its citizens, in which case the limiting factor would be determined by how much the citizens are content being oppressed into slavery.

Saying that the economy is like 'infinitely moldable clay by the State' is tantamount to saying that the State should have total control over the lives and decisions and property of each of its citizens. It's rather sickening to see this view expressed - government education, god help us all.

yojimbo22 · Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 511 Location: London, UK

I gotta tell you, coming from Russia, state control REALLY doesn't work... what will it take people in western countries who preach this crap to understand... opinions from people who lived in these areas not good enough?

anyway, back on ecosystem... everything within the economy is part of the ecosystem... in fact, the diagram should be reversed, with the economy only being a small part of the ecosystem... that is not to say that we aren't screwing it up :lol:

Nathyn · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 7911 Location: The Great Satan

Kindred wrote: Nathyn wrote: Kindred wrote:

Is there anything wrong with this picture? This view of the economy?

If so, what? If not, explain.

Simple.
The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

You're wrong. The economy can not be molded into any shape the state pleases. There are massive limits, but what are they? What is the most limiting factor restricting what the economy can do?
I was being sarcastic. ;)

Kindred · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: How do you view the economy?

LeopardPM wrote: Kindred wrote: Nathyn wrote: The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

You're wrong. The economy can not be molded into any shape the state pleases. There are massive limits, but what are they? What is the most limiting factor restricting what the economy can do?

The most limiting factor? Its also the best factor: that human beings are the vital force in the economy, with infinitely adaptable labor.

As far as what the state can do? well, all it can do is oppress its citizens, in which case the limiting factor would be determined by how much the citizens are content being oppressed into slavery.

No, there are more limiting factors than human knowledge.

Consider this diagram. Is this more correct that the first one, or less correct? Explain.

yojimbo22 · Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 511 Location: London, UK

Kindred wrote: LeopardPM wrote: Kindred wrote: Nathyn wrote: The economy is like an infinitely moldable clay, which can be squeezed by the State to act in virtually any way that the State would require. Except for Capitalism. Capitalism is evil. High unemployment, poverty, unstable economies, and lack of human rights in China, Cuba, Vietnam, France, and the former Soviet bloc is entirely because of Capitalism and overenforcement of "property rights."

You're wrong. The economy can not be molded into any shape the state pleases. There are massive limits, but what are they? What is the most limiting factor restricting what the economy can do?

The most limiting factor? Its also the best factor: that human beings are the vital force in the economy, with infinitely adaptable labor.

As far as what the state can do? well, all it can do is oppress its citizens, in which case the limiting factor would be determined by how much the citizens are content being oppressed into slavery.

No, there are more limiting factors than human knowledge.

Consider this diagram. Is this more correct that the first one, or less correct? Explain.

woot!!! that's better :-D

Harbinger · Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 685 Location: California

Looks to me like minimalism taken to extremes.

LeopardPM · Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 1226 Location: Arizona

Kindred wrote:
No, there are more limiting factors than human knowledge.

Consider this diagram. Is this more correct that the first one, or less correct? Explain.

yes, this diagram is more correct. The 'economy' is just all human transactions within a group, and as humans are a subsystem to the ecosystem, then the economy is as well. A more defined answer: we are limited by human knowledge AND the physical enviroment.

The Impeacher · Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2928 Location: Everywhere

Yeah, venn modelling. Considering our thesis are we?

I am a day late and a dollar short, but I like neither. I would like something more like this:

Suggesting that there are areas outside of the relationship, areas of conflict, and a smaller balanced zone where its being done correctly.

Which sphere should be larger depends on the scale of time imho, and at any given moment I would think they should be equally considered to an individual choice - but a long term model should place emphasis on the ecology... as "no ecology" tends to make having an economy a tad difficult.

I love Venn diagrams.