Political Crossfire Forums

[Lucky Luke]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

Perhaps but Nasrallah has proved the most capable officer and strategist they have ever had. He has proven himself capable of reforming Hezbollah from the more rag tag nature of what it was to a more modern guerilla and para military force. He has proven capable of carrying out and organization multiple terrorist attacks outside Lebanon as well as shore up a heavy political power for Hezbollah.

His death would remove the most capable terrorist, guerilla, and para military, and political leader any terrorist or paramilitary group has had in the region. He is probably one of the greatest tools Hezbollah has.

Yes he would be replaced when killed, but the leader would not be nearly as capable or experianced nor would he have the same abilities and skill.
It is the same problam Hamas, the PLO, and Fatah have faced a very heavy decay in their leadership and officer cadres creating a less effective and weaker officer command which takes years to restablish and rebuild. Of course that is through multiple assination operations. Though we have begun that in Lebanon already killed 2 Senior officers of Hezbollah.

We have been here before from the death of Arafat to the deaths of many Hamas leaders Israel always convinced itself that the murder policy will work. It did not and will never work.

:-D
:-D

[Lucky Luke]

mr_happy wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: mr_happy wrote: Toon, why doesn't sinoria just force Hezbullah to relase the two men? That's the one question nobody seems to be able to answer. Oh, and he can, he has the power. While he may not be able to bring down hezbullah, he can kill Nasrallah.

This is nothing to do with those 2 soldiers. The destruction of Lebanon for 2 soldiers? Please. :roll:
How many prisoners held without charge and trial does Israel have, which the Lebanese would like back?
Israels position regarding there 2 captive soldiers is sanctimonious at best.
Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

Only that ISrael's history proves you wrong. The IDF has a strong history of never leaving a man behind. In a country of under seven million, with almost everyone ahving served in the army, a soldier's life is a very sacred thing. Perhaps the British don't mind having their men abducted, but the Israelis do. Call it bravery, comeraderie, or simply population dynamics, the Israeli armed forces consider an ISraeli POW a very serious issue. Yes Israel is willing to bomb the s**t out of Hezbullah for two men.

They were willing to free 429 captives for the BODIES of 3 men.

They launched Operation Summer Rains for ONE MAN.

They engage in horribly lopsided prisoner exchanges for their men.

The majority of the ISraeli population backed the operation before the rockets started falling.

Yes P&S, this is about the two abducted soldiers. It is about the rocket attacks too, but Israel will not stop until their men are returned. In America we feel the same sentiment. We are willing to do anything to save an American soldier's life. One of the reasons I hate George Bush is because of his disregard for the lives of our men. Perhaps in Britain you don't care for your people, perhaps you even hate your own military, but that's Britain, not ISrael.

This last action sentenced the two soldiers to death if they did not get killed under Israeli bombs, who would think it wouldn't?

This is anything but caring for the two abducted soldiers.
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[PoS]

Politically and militarily Israel has already lost- even though they practiced and were prepared they did not expect Hezbollah to put up this much resistance nor did they know of their rocket stockpiles. Short of occupying the entire Lebanese territory they will not succeed in destroying Hezbollah; the militants will make good their losses in ammo and personnel and will be stronger than ever because of increased support due to that fact that Israel has killed civilians.

[superskippy]

Quote: We have been here before from the death of Arafat to the deaths of many Hamas leaders Israel always convinced itself that the murder policy will work. It did not and will never work.

Actually it has Hamas has suffered a severe degrading of it's officer cadres resulting in more poorly coordinated attacks and recondstructing their militant force.

We also annihilated the PLO as a real force with this method as well as Black September.

[Lucky Luke]

superskippy wrote: Quote: We have been here before from the death of Arafat to the deaths of many Hamas leaders Israel always convinced itself that the murder policy will work. It did not and will never work.

Actually it has Hamas has suffered a severe degrading of it's officer cadres resulting in more poorly coordinated attacks and recondstructing their militant force.

We also annihilated the PLO as a real force with this method as well as Black September.

Yes, you annihilated the PLO as a real force and got Hamas instead! Well done what will you get if you annihilate Hezbollah?

What is the point of negotiating with the people you will end up murdering, what is the point of murdering them when the next generation will come after you for what you have done?

:-D
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[cap'n queasy]

mr_happy wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: mr_happy wrote: Toon, why doesn't sinoria just force Hezbullah to relase the two men? That's the one question nobody seems to be able to answer. Oh, and he can, he has the power. While he may not be able to bring down hezbullah, he can kill Nasrallah.

This is nothing to do with those 2 soldiers. The destruction of Lebanon for 2 soldiers? Please. :roll:
How many prisoners held without charge and trial does Israel have, which the Lebanese would like back?
Israels position regarding there 2 captive soldiers is sanctimonious at best.
Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

Only that ISrael's history proves you wrong. The IDF has a strong history of never leaving a man behind. In a country of under seven million, with almost everyone ahving served in the army, a soldier's life is a very sacred thing. Perhaps the British don't mind having their men abducted, but the Israelis do. Call it bravery, comeraderie, or simply population dynamics, the Israeli armed forces consider an ISraeli POW a very serious issue. Yes Israel is willing to bomb the s**t out of Hezbullah for two men.

They were willing to free 429 captives for the BODIES of 3 men.

They launched Operation Summer Rains for ONE MAN.

They engage in horribly lopsided prisoner exchanges for their men.

The majority of the ISraeli population backed the operation before the rockets started falling.

Yes P&S, this is about the two abducted soldiers. It is about the rocket attacks too, but Israel will not stop until their men are returned. In America we feel the same sentiment. We are willing to do anything to save an American soldier's life. One of the reasons I hate George Bush is because of his disregard for the lives of our men. Perhaps in Britain you don't care for your people, perhaps you even hate your own military, but that's Britain, not ISrael.

A certain segment of our society counts human life, honor, loyalty, and decency as if it were of little value. You can't expect them to understand not the thinking behind not leaving a brother in the hands of wolves.

They don't really care about civilian deaths, it's just an easy way to support their agenda. If they really cared about those people they would be upset with Hezbollah for starting this fracas and causing their deaths, rather than defending and apologizing for the criminal actions of Hezbollah.

[superskippy]

I would rather have Hamas than the PLO at it's strength before we grinded them down. They are far, far, far weaker than what they were and as a result can kill far less then the PLO did.

Hezbollah is weaker than the PLO rather they fill the vacuum for the PLO than let the PLO stand. The PLO had both military and terrorist strength and utilized it across the middle east and the world killing our citizens into the thousands arena since they founded themselves. With their destruction the terrorist and militant opposition against has gone down dramatically in strength.

Also the death of Nasrallah and the assasination of the rest of his officer cadres deals an enormous blow to Hezbollah and their level of skill and experiance that they had in their ranks.

Oh wait your thinking along the lines of a moral issue with it arent you?

[cap'n queasy]

The moral thing to do for the long run is to take Nasrullah out of the picture, somehow IMHO.

He's the most to blame for the current state of affairs. And an extremely valuable asset for Hezbollah. And he has made himself a valid military target by ordering the initiation of military attacks IMHO.

Some of the better choices, IMHO, would be a targeted bombing run, some type of political action by the Lebanese government as someone mentioned, capture or kill with commando action, or possibly covert action.

I don't really know which is the best choice.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

PoS wrote: Politically and militarily Israel has already lost- even though they practiced and were prepared they did not expect Hezbollah to put up this much resistance nor did they know of their rocket stockpiles. Short of occupying the entire Lebanese territory they will not succeed in destroying Hezbollah; the militants will make good their losses in ammo and personnel and will be stronger than ever because of increased support due to that fact that Israel has killed civilians.

Israel hasn't lost yet IMHO, but I wouldn't say the same about the US and the UK. These have lost big time in this conflict and the US especially has severely damaged itself.

What has been truly amusing to watch has been Condoleezza Rice. As soon as she said that the Israeli attack is about bringing about a "new Middle East", she basically damaged herself and the American mission in the region. I don't know what the fall out will be, but I don't believe the Americans have ever had held a more unstable position in the Middle East in their entire history!

[Lucky Luke]

cap'n queasy wrote:

A certain segment of our society counts human life, honor, loyalty, and decency as if it were of little value. You can't expect them to understand not the thinking behind not leaving a brother in the hands of wolves.

They don't really care about civilian deaths, it's just an easy way to support their agenda. If they really cared about those people they would be upset with Hezbollah for starting this fracas and causing their deaths, rather than defending and apologizing for the criminal actions of Hezbollah.

Killing hundreds of civilians is not going to free the two soldiers, I'll say it will make sure that they are executed.

Is this what you call caring?

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[ToonArmyIsComing]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Rice really looked like an idiot when probably the most pro-Western leaders in the Middle East, Fouad Siniora, told her not to come to Lebanon!

The Israeli reaction is at least understandable considering the circumstances, but I don't quite see where the Americans are going with this!

[Redruin]

"A certain segment of our society counts human life, honor, loyalty, and decency as if it were of little value. You can't expect them to understand not the thinking behind not leaving a brother in the hands of wolves.

They don't really care about civilian deaths, it's just an easy way to support their agenda. If they really cared about those people they would be upset with Hezbollah for starting this fracas and causing their deaths, rather than defending and apologizing for the criminal actions of Hezbollah."


Hypocrisy at its best. You speak of valuing human life, honor, loyalty, and decency while razing another nation to "retrieve" your fallen brothers. We don't care about civilian lives? It is you sir who do not. Who is the one killing civilians? You are conveniently blaming Satan for all the evils in the world and not looking at the evil in your own heart. Take some responsibility for your own actions, open your eyes.

[Duchifas]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that Rice really looked like an idiot when probably the most pro-Western leaders in the Middle East, Fouad Siniora, told her not to come to Lebanon!

The Israeli reaction is at least understandable considering the circumstances, but I don't quite see where the Americans are going with this!

Rice is doing just fine. She is making the appearance of trying to do something with all the back and forth flying, but in reality she is doing nothing. Which is exactly what she should be doing in this situation, letting Israel finish its job.

In a way, she is mimicking what Arabs have been doing all along. Yes, they negotiate and try and speak and bla bla, but nothing ever happens. Kinda like when Arafat was negotiating for peace by night, sending in suicide bombers by day.

[Nico]

Duchifas wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: Oh, and I forgot to mention that Rice really looked like an idiot when probably the most pro-Western leaders in the Middle East, Fouad Siniora, told her not to come to Lebanon!

The Israeli reaction is at least understandable considering the circumstances, but I don't quite see where the Americans are going with this!

Rice is doing just fine. She is making the appearance of trying to do something with all the back and forth flying, but in reality she is doing nothing. Which is exactly what she should be doing in this situation, letting Israel finish its job.

In a way, she is mimicking what Arabs have been doing all along. Yes, they negotiate and try and speak and bla bla, but nothing ever happens. Kinda like when Arafat was negotiating for peace by night, sending in suicide bombers by day.


You are right on the money, but Rice, unlike the arabs, is from a country trying to rebuild an Arab constituent, namely Iraq, and also trying to appear like it cares about the little guy. Every time she gets on a podium and does her transparent "we aren't going to do jack about a cease fire" speeches, back in Iraq Americans are getting shot at for it. I could care less about Hezbollah, but she's selling out ordinary Lebanese and US soldiers to boot.

America has portayed itself as an honest arbiter in middle east conflict for the last 3 years, trying to gain the trust of one very large country to get democracy to gel. Frankly Rice looks like a used car salesman more than a representative of a 'new way'.

[cap'n queasy]

Redruin wrote: "A certain segment of our society counts human life, honor, loyalty, and decency as if it were of little value. You can't expect them to understand not the thinking behind not leaving a brother in the hands of wolves.

They don't really care about civilian deaths, it's just an easy way to support their agenda. If they really cared about those people they would be upset with Hezbollah for starting this fracas and causing their deaths, rather than defending and apologizing for the criminal actions of Hezbollah."


Hypocrisy at its best. You speak of valuing human life, honor, loyalty, and decency while razing another nation to "retrieve" your fallen brothers. We don't care about civilian lives? It is you sir who do not. Who is the one killing civilians? You are conveniently blaming Satan for all the evils in the world and not looking at the evil in your own heart. Take some responsibility for your own actions, open your eyes.

No, I am blaming the one that initiated combat with an act of war.

Hezbollah. Those civilian deaths are in their hands. It's clearly their fault and clearly they have to be stopped before they are able to cause even more damage with their lunatic ideology.

[mr_happy]

[quote="Lucky Luke"] cap'n queasy wrote:

A certain segment of our society counts human life, honor, loyalty, and decency as if it were of little value. You can't expect them to understand not the thinking behind not leaving a brother in the hands of wolves.

They don't really care about civilian deaths, it's just an easy way to support their agenda. If they really cared about those people they would be upset with Hezbollah for starting this fracas and causing their deaths, rather than defending and apologizing for the criminal actions of Hezbollah.

Killing hundreds of civilians is not going to free the two soldiers, I'll say it will make sure that they are executed.

Wow, I hear this argument constantly. Ok, so you get a ransom notice from a gang telling you that they have kidnapped your entire family, and that they will be held until you give the gang forty million dollars. Now, obviously, you don't have forty million dollars. Are you telling me you wouldn't want the police to kill all fifty members of the gang because they are worth more than your five family members? Your argument is pure hypocracy anhd completely illogical. People are always willing to kill others to save their own. Unless you'd be willing to abandon your family to protect the gang that stole them you are a hypocrite.

Yes it is what I call caring. If I was ever kidnapped I'd want my family to kill anyone in order to keep me safe. And since they love me they probably would. I guess if your son gets kidnapped by some criminals hes done for.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Duchifas wrote: Rice is doing just fine. She is making the appearance of trying to do something with all the back and forth flying, but in reality she is doing nothing. Which is exactly what she should be doing in this situation, letting Israel finish its job.

In a way, she is mimicking what Arabs have been doing all along. Yes, they negotiate and try and speak and bla bla, but nothing ever happens. Kinda like when Arafat was negotiating for peace by night, sending in suicide bombers by day.

Nico pretty much summed it up, but I will say this: the whole American approach is increasingly based on intimidation using the military force through a process of "shock and awe". Now, the problem with this approach is quite clear as we can see the situation in Iraq: shock and awe's effects don't last too long. That is a basic psychological fact. When you attempt to achieve something through intimidation, you will probably be successful at first, but then the enemy will adapt.

And that is why the American military might is losing its value as it is having very little political effect and a military that has no political effect is just useless as military is a tool for political action.