Political Crossfire Forums

[Duchifas]

thatisnotme wrote: I agree with you that in the past, the leaders in the Knesset weren't forceful enough, and the dithering has more than anything else emboldened the enemy. But to be on the optimistic side, note that 30,000 reservists were called in. Also, Bush has not wavered so far, insisting that there should be a true peace, not a fake one (translation: Israel has his green light).

Well, in this instance, Bush is doing right. The question is whether Israeli government will. My heart points me one way, my experience and understanding points the other.

Quote: And to be realistic, time is not on Israel's side with the media that has gone awry in showing casualties, turning public opinion against Israel.

In large part this is a problem of Israeli government, again. Israel has some of, if not the, best and brightest minds in the Middle East. Israel has a gigantic proportion of population that are natives of the West and have perfect command of Western languages and plenty intellectual capacity to defend Israel's stance. Where are they all? Yes, sometimes Netanyahu is on TV and sometimes Gissin makes a showing. Regev is semi-decent. Aside from these episodes of good PR, Israeli PR is either just bad or non-existent. Yes, the media has always been solidly in the Arab corner, serving as useful idiots for their propaganda machine. But there is also no excuse for Israeli ineptitude in the PR battle. Government appointments, sadly, are political rather than professional based. So I am left to wonder how Amir Peretz (the one who destroyed Sharon's potential to win the first Lebanon war) can be expected to competently direct a war in Lebanon, or how the foreign minister Tzippi Livni with her utterly poor command of English can convince the world of anything with her "eeeehhhs" preceding and following every word. Then again, maybe my expectations are too high and my criticism is unjustified. I'd probably also be much lacking if placed in similar straining circumstances.

Sorry for the rant.

Quote: Nonetheless, the more damage is done to Hezbollah, the greater the message: Mess around with us, and it will cost you. In public, Hezbollah will show a brave face, but among them, they will know what a terrible miscalculation they made in the abduction of Israeli soldiers.

I think Michael Totten has it right, in his July 26 piece (at www.michaeltotten.com). After this war is over, Lebanese will try to settle scores with Hizbollah. If that's the case, even if this campaign is not carried to conclusion by Israel, it will be good that Hizbollah is sufficiently weakened.

[Duchifas]

CNN Breaking News wrote: Israel Agrees to Suspend Airstrikes in Lebanon for 48 Hours

Yup. That's all folks.

Duchifas wrote: Well, in this instance, Bush is doing right. The question is whether Israeli government will. My heart points me one way, my experience and understanding points the other.

I wonder if Hizbollah will suspend rocket attacks on Israel. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SpartanPhalanx]

Duchifas,

You are really reaching buddy, Israel divided and ruled back in 1982 with its incitement of hatred against Lebanese who fight Israel and you seem to be trying the same tactc, although in a highly amateurish way.

ALL LEBANESE ARE AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR COUNTRY.

With the exception, possibly of the extremist, pro-israel minority there, which, I am positive, Israeli psy-ops are working hand-in-hand, trying to tear Lebanon apart even more by creating even more instability there.

Incidencally, the Lebanese foreign minister accused Israel directly of war crimes against his people in Qana this morning.

All the world can now see how Israel is an organisation run by murderers and criminals.

Congratulations Duchifas on your very proud, strong, cowardly country.

[Duchifas]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Duchifas,

You are really reaching buddy, Israel divided and ruled back in 1982 with its incitement of hatred against Lebanese who fight Israel and you seem to be trying the same tactc, although in a highly amateurish way.

ALL LEBANESE ARE AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR COUNTRY.

With the exception, possibly of the extremist, pro-israel minority there, which, I am positive, Israeli psy-ops are working hand-in-hand, trying to tear Lebanon apart even more by creating even more instability there.

Incidencally, the Lebanese foreign minister accused Israel directly of war crimes against his people in Qana this morning.

All the world can now see how Israel is an organisation run by murderers and criminals.

Congratulations Duchifas on your very proud, strong, cowardly country.

Michael knows Lebanon well, and his sources are in Lebanon. I am not. That's why I am quoting. According to those sources, the Lebanese will settle score with Hizbollah after Israel is done. I understand that it will cause you lots of grief that your terrorist, oops, I meant freedom fighter Hizbollah buddies are going to have their throats slashed by the pissed Druze and Christians, but you'll just have to deal with it.

[Plato & Socrates]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Duchifas,

You are really reaching buddy, Israel divided and ruled back in 1982 with its incitement of hatred against Lebanese who fight Israel and you seem to be trying the same tactc, although in a highly amateurish way.

ALL LEBANESE ARE AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR COUNTRY.

With the exception, possibly of the extremist, pro-israel minority there, which, I am positive, Israeli psy-ops are working hand-in-hand, trying to tear Lebanon apart even more by creating even more instability there.

Incidencally, the Lebanese foreign minister accused Israel directly of war crimes against his people in Qana this morning.

All the world can now see how Israel is an organisation run by murderers and criminals.

Congratulations Duchifas on your very proud, strong, cowardly country.

Qana was the tipping point, the straw that broke the camels back. I was going to start a post called "What was the point?" With Israel being forced to stop this bombing campaign of Lebanon without achieving their goals.
I could'nt be bothered because I already knew the answer. With 100s of Lebanese dead, young Israeli soldiers dead, Israel not achieving their military aims, Hizbollah undefeated and still armed, plus the kidnapped soldiers still missing. What was the point of this latest half-baked scheme of the Israeli government? Because i'm truly baffled

[quote="Duchifas]Michael knows Lebanon well, and his sources are in Lebanon. I am not. That's why I am quoting. According to those sources, the Lebanese will settle score with Hizbollah after Israel is done. I understand that it will cause you lots of grief that your terrorist, oops, I meant freedom fighter Hizbollah buddies are going to have their throats slashed by the pissed Druze and Christians, but you'll just have to deal with it.[/quote]

I bet that will fill you with glee? Semi-civil war wont even happen because Hizbollah is too strong and well organised. Any attempt by the Druze and Christians to exact revenge will end in failure.

[Duchifas]

Plato & Socrates wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: Duchifas,

You are really reaching buddy, Israel divided and ruled back in 1982 with its incitement of hatred against Lebanese who fight Israel and you seem to be trying the same tactc, although in a highly amateurish way.

ALL LEBANESE ARE AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR COUNTRY.

With the exception, possibly of the extremist, pro-israel minority there, which, I am positive, Israeli psy-ops are working hand-in-hand, trying to tear Lebanon apart even more by creating even more instability there.

Incidencally, the Lebanese foreign minister accused Israel directly of war crimes against his people in Qana this morning.

All the world can now see how Israel is an organisation run by murderers and criminals.

Congratulations Duchifas on your very proud, strong, cowardly country.

Qana was the tipping point, the straw that broke the camels back. I was going to start a post called "What was the point?" With Israel being forced to stop this bombing campaign of Lebanon without achieving their goals.
I could'nt be bothered because I already knew the answer. With 100s of Lebanese dead, young Israeli soldiers dead, Israel not achieving their military aims, Hizbollah undefeated and still armed, plus the kidnapped soldiers still missing. What was the point of this latest half-baked scheme of the Israeli government? Because i'm truly baffled

P & S, you'd be a person calling for unconditional surrender to Hitler as the first bombing raids on London began. RAF couldn't do anything, the city was burning, Brits were dying. You'd be so baffled that you'd immediately give up.

Quote: Duchifas wrote: Michael knows Lebanon well, and his sources are in Lebanon. I am not. That's why I am quoting. According to those sources, the Lebanese will settle score with Hizbollah after Israel is done. I understand that it will cause you lots of grief that your terrorist, oops, I meant freedom fighter Hizbollah buddies are going to have their throats slashed by the pissed Druze and Christians, but you'll just have to deal with it.

I bet that will fill you with glee? Semi-civil war wont even happen because Hizbollah is too strong and well organised. Any attempt by the Druze and Christians to exact revenge will end in failure.

Am I filled with glee? Well, not any more so than you were for the last six years when Hizbollah was arming itself to the teeth, while you and everyone else conveniently ignored reality. Were you filled with glee while there was "peace" during which Hizbollah amassed thousands of rockets, boobytrapped every road in S. Lebanon, and recruited and trained hundreds of youth into its ranks? Weren't you filled with glee during that type of "peace?"

No, I am not filled with glee at anything in the region. The difference between you and me is that I can (or at least try to) think a step ahead. I am not filled with glee at the thought of sectarian violence in Lebanon. But I am filled with even less glee at the thought of Hizbollah being allowed to re-arm itself and prepare better for the next round of carnage that sustains it.

[Duchifas]

BTW, P & S, I noticed that you had nothing to respond to my post directed to you. Good, I'm glad to be knocking some sense into you.

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: P & S, you'd be a person calling for unconditional surrender to Hitler as the first bombing raids on London began. RAF couldn't do anything, the city was burning, Brits were dying. You'd be so baffled that you'd immediately give up.
Whoops!

There goes the Nazi card again.. :lol:

[Duchifas]

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: P & S, you'd be a person calling for unconditional surrender to Hitler as the first bombing raids on London began. RAF couldn't do anything, the city was burning, Brits were dying. You'd be so baffled that you'd immediately give up.
Whoops!

There goes the Nazi card again.. :lol:

Why don't you actually try to read that which you are commenting on.

[Plato & Socrates]

Duchifas, whether its Al-Qada, Al-Zarqawi, Hizbollah or any other terrorist group. I never shed a tear when any one of them dies. Where I draw the line is at Israels and the U.S blatant disregard for civilian lives except for there own kind. Killing civilians is a big No No.

This concept Israel seems to disregard. The fact is this Duchifas, apart from the U.S, Israel is on her own.
Forget the usual reflex action of anti-semitism. It is because Israel is a disgusting regime WHEN it concerns the Palestinians.

Arguing with Jews reminds me of my late teens when I used to debate with South Africans about their regime.
Only a small handful out of many would concede that the Blacks had it bad. For they would defend there way of life
and the crackdowns and oppressions on blacks, to the hilt. For the similarities with Israeli's and Jews defending the state of Israel is uncanny. If it was'nt for the U.S, Israel would be a international pariah, Why is that?
Your not the first nation to go through a bought of delusion.

When we had our empire and slave trade, we justified it all. You name it, we justified it. Israel is no different.
Does it disgust you so much what Israel has become, that you refuse to see her for what she is?
Israel is in many respects like another South Africa. Open your eyes to what is in front of you. Stop blaming Palestinians and look at your self. The Palestinians take a huge portion of the blame. But Israel takes the majority, because since 67 she has had the power but abused it. Her Zionist project has gone too far, so far she does'nt no how to stop.

She needs help but you cant even see it. Her madness in striking the WHOLE of Lebanon just shows it.
Yet people like yourself, make excuses for her. If the violence stopped today Israel would'nt know what to do, because the project needs the cover of violence to succeed. Israel is a sick nation, like the citizens of former apartheid South Africa, they thought the outside world got it wrong. South Africans could never understand why they were so hated, and Israeli's and the diaspora supporters have become the same. The world dispises you in some quarters, ask yourself why?

[Duchifas]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Duchifas, whether its Al-Qada, Al-Zarqawi, Hizbollah or any other terrorist group. I never shed a tear when any one of them dies. Where I draw the line is at Israels and the U.S blatant disregard for civilian lives except for there own kind. Killing civilians is a big No No.

This concept Israel seems to disregard. The fact is this Duchifas, apart from the U.S, Israel is on her own.
Forget the usual reflex action of anti-semitism. It is because Israel is a disgusting regime WHEN it concerns the Palestinians.

Arguing with Jews reminds me of my late teens when I used to debate with South Africans about their regime.
Only a small handful out of many would concede that the Blacks had it bad. For they would defend there way of life
and the crackdowns and oppressions on blacks, to the hilt. For the similarities with Israeli's and Jews defending the state of Israel is uncanny. If it was'nt for the U.S, Israel would be a international pariah, Why is that? Your not the first nation to go through a bought of delusion.

Once again, with idiotic parallels. Here is why they are idiotic.

1) Jews have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. Unlike the whites to South Africa.

2) Arabs had a zillion chances for peaceful resolution of the conflict, rejecting them all and choosing instead wars of annihilation. Not so in South Africa. Arabs were offered a state in 1947, they rejected. Israel offered to negotiate and give land back in 1967, Arabs rejected. Oslo gave Arabs autonomy, they used it to terrorize Israel. Camp David offered them virtually all they wanted, they unleashed a war of terror. Disengagement gave them Gaza, they use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks into Israel.

So it is not about me conceding that Palestinians have it bad. They do have it bad, I know. What I am saying is that, unlike South Africa, the Palestinian s**t is one of their own making. Grasp that simple point, will you? Opportunity is a great thing, but you won't be given an unlimited number of them. In the last 60 years, Palestinians managed to squander more opportunities for peace and prosperity than most nations did in their entire existence. It is time you stopped blaming Israel for everything and anything, and realized where the true root cause of the conflict lies. Then and ONLY then, can you hope to understand the conflict and to say something semi-intelligent about it.

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: P & S, you'd be a person calling for unconditional surrender to Hitler as the first bombing raids on London began. RAF couldn't do anything, the city was burning, Brits were dying. You'd be so baffled that you'd immediately give up.
Whoops!

There goes the Nazi card again.. :lol:

Why don't you actually try to read that which you are commenting on.
I did, and I still don't know what you're talking about..

Someone talks about how bad the Israeli is (both in terms of the atrocities it commits, and in terms of being utterly incapable of actually achieving its goals), and .. whoop! .. out comes the Nazi card! :lol:

Just for the sake of humor, you could try being a tad less predictable.


Roman Conquest of the Jews

Try surprising us for once and pull out a Titus or a Vespasian card instead.. or something.. :-D

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: 1) Jews have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. Unlike the whites to South Africa.
The Israelites have some sort of claim to the land of Israel... a very loose one, but .. albeit, some kind of claim. Now if anyone could actually figure out where the Israelites actually are, we might be getting somewhere.. :think:

The Jews, of course, have no such claim. The Jews first came into the Levant from Babylon only in 500 BC, and the only claim they have to the land was an imperial decree given to the them by King Cyrus of Persia. We're speaking here of course of the Biblical Jews. Modern day Jews, for the most part, have little claim to any land outside the Russian steppes from which they originate. Their "claim" to the Biblical lands is even more tenuous than that of the Biblical Jews, who .. in all fairness .. didn't really have much of a claim to that land to begin w/..

Not that it mattered.. About 95% of the Biblical Jews never even bothered to leave Babylon when ordered to by Cyrus anyway. Instead they just remained in Babylon the whole time, which is their true and original homeland to begin w/.. sooo... I don't see why you're making such a big fuss over it now today, 2,500 years later.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Duchifas wrote: Quote: Nonetheless, the more damage is done to Hezbollah, the greater the message: Mess around with us, and it will cost you. In public, Hezbollah will show a brave face, but among them, they will know what a terrible miscalculation they made in the abduction of Israeli soldiers.

I think Michael Totten has it right, in his July 26 piece (at www.michaeltotten.com). After this war is over, Lebanese will try to settle scores with Hizbollah. If that's the case, even if this campaign is not carried to conclusion by Israel, it will be good that Hizbollah is sufficiently weakened.

If you are expecting people to start "settling scores" in Lebanon, be sure they will, but Hezbollah will not be the ones who are going to suffer significantly. It will be those perceived as being Israeli colaberators who will suffer significantly.

If anything, this intervention has changed the dynamics of the region greatly. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are now irrelevant and Iran has become the leading force in the region. This has basically solidified the Iranian position as the leader of the region. Now, the Wahabi Saudis are even paying homage to the Shiite Iran with their frequent visits with the Iranian political leaders.

Good work in uniting two factions that basically can murder each other in cold blood in broad daylight when it comes to all other issues!

That is what I call taking a fly and turning it into a monster!

And to make matters worse, I can guarantee that Al Qaeda will be making an appearance in Lebanon shortly among the Sunnis of the country. After all, they thrive on instability in the countries of the region.

EDIT: I just looked at Michael Totten's site and it seems that your own Michael Totten agrees with me, at least on the Al Qaeda part. :-| Great! :?

[mr_happy]

Toon, why doesn't sinoria just force Hezbullah to relase the two men? That's the one question nobody seems to be able to answer. Oh, and he can, he has the power. While he may not be able to bring down hezbullah, he can kill Nasrallah.

[Lucky Luke]

Duchifas wrote:

Once again, with idiotic parallels. Here is why they are idiotic.

1) Jews have a legitimate claim to the land of Israel. Unlike the whites to South Africa.

2) Arabs had a zillion chances for peaceful resolution of the conflict, rejecting them all and choosing instead wars of annihilation. Not so in South Africa. Arabs were offered a state in 1947, they rejected. Israel offered to negotiate and give land back in 1967, Arabs rejected. Oslo gave Arabs autonomy, they used it to terrorize Israel. Camp David offered them virtually all they wanted, they unleashed a war of terror. Disengagement gave them Gaza, they use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks into Israel.

So it is not about me conceding that Palestinians have it bad. They do have it bad, I know. What I am saying is that, unlike South Africa, the Palestinian s**t is one of their own making. Grasp that simple point, will you? Opportunity is a great thing, but you won't be given an unlimited number of them. In the last 60 years, Palestinians managed to squander more opportunities for peace and prosperity than most nations did in their entire existence. It is time you stopped blaming Israel for everything and anything, and realized where the true root cause of the conflict lies. Then and ONLY then, can you hope to understand the conflict and to say something semi-intelligent about it.

Israel is the only party in this conflict that can give back what it took, it is Israel to make sure that what it gives back is fair for the people it took it from, so far Israel has failed.

:-D
:-D

[Plato & Socrates]

mr_happy wrote: Toon, why doesn't sinoria just force Hezbullah to relase the two men? That's the one question nobody seems to be able to answer. Oh, and he can, he has the power. While he may not be able to bring down hezbullah, he can kill Nasrallah.

This is nothing to do with those 2 soldiers. The destruction of Lebanon for 2 soldiers? Please. :roll:
How many prisoners held without charge and trial does Israel have, which the Lebanese would like back?
Israels position regarding there 2 captive soldiers is sanctimonious at best.
Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

[thatisnotme]

Plato & Socrates wrote:

...But Israel takes the majority, because since 67 she has had the power but abused it. Her Zionist project has gone too far, so far she does'nt no how to stop.

...



Let me see, since 1967, Israel made peace with Egypt and returned the Sinai, made peace with Jordan, but Jordan didn't want the West Bank --- the Palestinians had tried to overthrow the monarchy and made attempts to assassinate the Jordan king. Syria refused to make peace, so the Golan Heights are still occupied. Until Syria makes the unprecedent move to recognize Israel...

Israel did invade Labanon in 1982, only because the PLO was launching attacks from there -- sounds familiar, except today it is Hezbollah.

Israel made the Camp David/Taba offers to the PA, only for the Palestinians to launch Intifada 2.

Israel left Gaza strip and Olmert was elected on the promise to disengage from the WB, as a result, Hamas was elected and bombings from Hamas in the south, and bombings from Hezbollah in the north.

No one is perfect, the least being Israel. But there has been an effort on the part of Israel to want to make peace with its neighboring Arab states, but that seems to backfire into more violence rather than less. I wonder why???

[superskippy]

Quote: Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

Perhaps but Nasrallah has proved the most capable officer and strategist they have ever had. He has proven himself capable of reforming Hezbollah from the more rag tag nature of what it was to a more modern guerilla and para military force. He has proven capable of carrying out and organization multiple terrorist attacks outside Lebanon as well as shore up a heavy political power for Hezbollah.

His death would remove the most capable terrorist, guerilla, and para military, and political leader any terrorist or paramilitary group has had in the region. He is probably one of the greatest tools Hezbollah has.

Yes he would be replaced when killed, but the leader would not be nearly as capable or experianced nor would he have the same abilities and skill.
It is the same problam Hamas, the PLO, and Fatah have faced a very heavy decay in their leadership and officer cadres creating a less effective and weaker officer command which takes years to restablish and rebuild. Of course that is through multiple assination operations. Though we have begun that in Lebanon already killed 2 Senior officers of Hezbollah.

[mr_happy]

Plato & Socrates wrote: mr_happy wrote: Toon, why doesn't sinoria just force Hezbullah to relase the two men? That's the one question nobody seems to be able to answer. Oh, and he can, he has the power. While he may not be able to bring down hezbullah, he can kill Nasrallah.

This is nothing to do with those 2 soldiers. The destruction of Lebanon for 2 soldiers? Please. :roll:
How many prisoners held without charge and trial does Israel have, which the Lebanese would like back?
Israels position regarding there 2 captive soldiers is sanctimonious at best.
Killing Nasrallah will only bring another clone to replace him, espousing the same crap.

Only that ISrael's history proves you wrong. The IDF has a strong history of never leaving a man behind. In a country of under seven million, with almost everyone ahving served in the army, a soldier's life is a very sacred thing. Perhaps the British don't mind having their men abducted, but the Israelis do. Call it bravery, comeraderie, or simply population dynamics, the Israeli armed forces consider an ISraeli POW a very serious issue. Yes Israel is willing to bomb the s**t out of Hezbullah for two men.

They were willing to free 429 captives for the BODIES of 3 men.

They launched Operation Summer Rains for ONE MAN.

They engage in horribly lopsided prisoner exchanges for their men.

The majority of the ISraeli population backed the operation before the rockets started falling.

Yes P&S, this is about the two abducted soldiers. It is about the rocket attacks too, but Israel will not stop until their men are returned. In America we feel the same sentiment. We are willing to do anything to save an American soldier's life. One of the reasons I hate George Bush is because of his disregard for the lives of our men. Perhaps in Britain you don't care for your people, perhaps you even hate your own military, but that's Britain, not ISrael.