Political Crossfire Forums

[mr_happy]

Well I'm just curious as to what everyone thinks of Israel's recent campaign. Im not looking for "ISrael s*cks" or "Damn the joos." I just want to see what people think about the military effectiveness, efficiency, and success of the current campaign. If you find something wrong with what Israel is doing, please do post your own suggestion of how to accomplish the same goal differently. Keep in mind that any of your alternate ideas must result in the release of the two captured soldiers and the cessation of rocket attacks. I guess I'll go first.

1. Israel's far reaching air attacks have resulted in a lot of civillian casualties with a lesser proportion of militants killed. It seems that the airstrikes are pushing Hezbollah underground rather than killing them. I think special forces snipers and insurgent teams guiding pinpoint F-16 strikes would be more effective and cause less collateral damage. Also, instead of sending the Golani brigade into a town of twenty-thousand potential civillian deaths, the special operations forces could probably use Lebanon's landscape against Hezbollah and carry out insurgent attcks meant to draw out Hezbollah into the open.

I'm curious to see what other people think.

[Nico]

As far as I can gauge Israel squandered initial lebanese feeling about justified retaliation for Hezbollah actions in the south by bombing in the north.

The use of special forces is way over-rated IMO. Instead Israel should have isolated hezbollah first.
Goal number 1 should have been to avoid alienating the lebanese public as a whole. That reduces the number of people you have to fight for a kick off, and reduces recruits to the cause.

I honestly think a large ground attack hooking from right to left behind the main Hezbollah controlled areas and cordoning the area, followed by allowing free egress of civilians and anybody without a weapon. Too generous you might argue, but the goal has to be clear; if you want a buffer zone, you make a buffer zone. It doesn't matter if enemy fighters leave, as long as they are out. If you don't give your enemy the chance to leave alive, they stay and fight to the death.

No supplies come in, civilians and potential fighters leave. The key is never to make it a tight siege.

As soon as the area is controlled you hand it over to an international or regular lebanese army with a mandate and back-up.
there is no way you ever fix a problem completely, but there is a way to achieve your strategy at minimum cost, with the least long-term fallout.
And for god's sake never stay there.

[David Kelly]

What if Isreal just ingnored the USA and entered into peace talks with Hezbollah. They've sued for peace, now is the time to talk.

[FreedomSpeech]

David Kelly wrote: What if Isreal just ingnored the USA and entered into peace talks with Hezbollah. They've sued for peace, now is the time to talk.
I agree. Israel does not have to use military solution to accomplish its tasks; quite the opposite, Israel is now in more trouble because Lebanese are more convinced of the need to Hezbollah. I can't see any military strategy that can accomplish Israel's objective. Neither air strikes nor limited ground operations can destroy Hezbollah, yea they could make some damage but this will make Hezbollah stronger when the war ends (more expriement, more understanding of the Israeli tactics, more weapons from Iran that would be now more suitable for Israel's tactics; just like bodybuilding, damage a muscle, eat protein, then get a bigger and stronger muscle).

Alternative solution, they should've sticked to the international solution. Security Council has already passed a resolution to disarm Hezbollah, before this war, Hezbollah's popularity was in its lowest rates (Leabnese started to think this way: No occupation, no need for resistance and then no need for militias to resist, Lebanses army should handle it). Political parties opposed to Heboullah started to put pressure to disarm Hezbollah (and they almost succeeded) . In summary, Israel should've just waited and see Hezbollah collapsing by itself. However, the Israeli mistake will just make it very hard to accomplish its objectives. As for the other objective (release of the captured soldiers), this could've been done with a lesser cost by negotiations, simple as that.

[Moot]

mr_happy wrote:

1. Israel's far reaching air attacks have resulted in a lot of civillian casualties with a lesser proportion of militants killed. It seems that the airstrikes are pushing Hezbollah underground rather than killing them. I think special forces snipers and insurgent teams guiding pinpoint F-16 strikes would be more effective and cause less collateral damage. Also, instead of sending the Golani brigade into a town of twenty-thousand potential civillian deaths, the special operations forces could probably use Lebanon's landscape against Hezbollah and carry out insurgent attcks meant to draw out Hezbollah into the open.

I'm curious to see what other people think.

"Underground" is probably right.

Hezbollah has built an extensive network of underground tunnels and bunkers throughout S. Lebanon and S. Beirut. Hezbollah's high tech TV station is even underground. In order for Israel to destroy Hezbollah's underground strongholds, they have had to bombard heavily using bunker busting bombs. Unfortunately, Hezbollah built their tunnel network underneath civilian populations, which may explain in part, the high Lebanese civilian death count in Israels trying to bomb deep enough to destroy the bunkers.

But now that most of the civilian population have fled out of S. Lebanon, I think Israel will intensify it's bombardment to try and take out more of Hezbollahs bunkers and help clear the way for ground troops to move in and route out remaining Hezbollah fighters. The goal is to create a 12 mile buffer zone so Hezbollah's rockets will be out of reach of N. Israel.

Israel believes Hezbollah has around 10,000 to 12,000 Katyusha rockets. They estimate Hezbollah has launched around 1000 over the last 3 weeks. Thats an average of about 45 rockets a day fired at Israel. It could take months for Hezbollah to run out of rockets. Israel needs to find the rocket launchers and take them out ASAP while preventing Hezbollah from getting more munitions from Syria. But Hezbollah may have tunnels going into Syria, who knows? Bunker busting bombs are probably the best bet to try and inflict as much damage to Hezbollah's bunkers as possible.

Israel needs to push Hezbollah north so their rockets can't reach N. Israel.
But the terrain of S. Lebanon is very hilly and dense with foliage giving Hezbollahs mobile rocket launchers plenty of places to hide. Aside from softening the target with airstrikes, Israel is going to have to use ground forces to sweep (or inch) its way north, to clear what it can't see from the air. But Hezbollah could have the area heavily booby trapped, so it probably won't be easy.

Israel should also try to covertly assassinate Hezbollah's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. I believe he is getting his marching orders from Iran or Syria and surprised everyone (including the Lebanese government) by attacking Israel first. IMO, taking out Nasrallah would severly cripple Hezbollah.

[Duchifas]

Israel's best military strategy, by far, would be to get rid of the morons running its government.

Quote: Despite approving the call-up of three reserve divisions, the security cabinet decided on Thursday against significantly widening the IDF's operations in southern Lebanon, rejecting a recommendation by Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz to escalate the offensive against Hizbullah.

Halutz, IDF officials said, asked the cabinet for permission to expand Israel's ground operations in southern Lebanon, to insert larger forces to sweep through the Hizbullah strongholds in the area. According to a high-ranking source in the Northern Command, Hizbullah has several hundred underground bunkers in southern Lebanon, mostly near the border with Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292011073&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SaladFingers]

lol..

Israel negotiate peace with Hezbollah?

Didn't you hear the Prime Minister of Lebannon say this was the 8th time Hezbollah has interfered with the peace process between Lebannon and Israel?

Like all the terrorist groups, Hezbollah will not, and never will be satisfied until Israel is destroyed. They just want to kill Jews. Plain and simple. Racial hatred is the easiest motivator, the fact that Hezbollah has "social services" and benefits displaced Shiite neighborhoods is just a cover for their true militaristic intentions.

Hezbollah is quite similar to the KKK, political agendas but also a darker, more aggressive side that harms civilians and only creates rifts in an already troubled region.

It would be great to see the Lebanesse government cooperate with IDF to oust Hezbollah, but whats happening now, will help the Lebannese government even more. Israel gets demonized for attacking terrorists targets and killing a fraction of the civilians that Israel has lost - Lebannon acknoweledges Hezbollah broke the peace, but saves face from having to disappoint Syria and Iran.

If the current trend continues in the media, and more and more dance like puppets and want Israel to stop, and cease-fire, then we've all danced to the tune of Hezbollah's pipe, and we'll get to repeat this gig a few months later. weeee!

[Plato & Socrates]

SaladFingers wrote: lol..

Israel negotiate peace with Hezbollah?

Didn't you hear the Prime Minister of Lebannon say this was the 8th time Hezbollah has interfered with the peace process between Lebannon and Israel?

Like all the terrorist groups, Hezbollah will not, and never will be satisfied until Israel is destroyed. They just want to kill Jews. Plain and simple. Racial hatred is the easiest motivator, the fact that Hezbollah has "social services" and benefits displaced Shiite neighborhoods is just a cover for their true militaristic intentions.

Hezbollah is quite similar to the KKK, political agendas but also a darker, more aggressive side that harms civilians and only creates rifts in an already troubled region.

It would be great to see the Lebanesse government cooperate with IDF to oust Hezbollah, but whats happening now, will help the Lebannese government even more. Israel gets demonized for attacking terrorists targets and killing a fraction of the civilians that Israel has lost - Lebannon acknoweledges Hezbollah broke the peace, but saves face from having to disappoint Syria and Iran.

If the current trend continues in the media, and more and more dance like puppets and want Israel to stop, and cease-fire, then we've all danced to the tune of Hezbollah's pipe, and we'll get to repeat this gig a few months later. weeee!

Don't be so sure. Not everybody has a death-wish who's a member of Hizbollah. Likewise there will be factions within Hizbollah who don't believe in there current course. Like in any big organisation, there will be differing views and most importantly ideologies within Hizbollah. If Israel continues down this path, only the radical strain within the radical group of Hizbollah will prevail, and that's a guarantee.

In real honesty,do you think Israel has lessened support for Hizbollah and willing fighters to join the cause or increased the volunteer rate. If its the latter, then its a sheer failure for the lack of intelligent people within the Israeli government.

[theshield]

Plato & Socrates wrote: In real honesty,do you think Israel has lessened support for Hizbollah and willing fighters to join the cause or increased the volunteer rate. If its the latter, then its a sheer failure for the lack of intelligent people within the Israeli government.

So far the results of the campaign is that Hezbollah representatives are calling for a cease fire and suddenly started talking about Lebanese only prisoner exchange ,only 3 people (while before they talked about Palestinian prisoners which are thousands of people).Give it a bit more time and they will accept the other 2 issues.Willingness to let the Lebanese army or some international force (with teeth not unifil) to spread around the south and to disarm themselves.

[Duchifas]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Don't be so sure. Not everybody has a death-wish who's a member of Hizbollah. Likewise there will be factions within Hizbollah who don't believe in there current course. Like in any big organisation, there will be differing views and most importantly ideologies within Hizbollah. If Israel continues down this path, only the radical strain within the radical group of Hizbollah will prevail, and that's a guarantee.

This is an idiotic analysis because it implies that Hizbollah consists of these factions, one radical, and another that is perfectly reasonable and pragmatic.

There are no normal people in Hizbollah. The normal, moderate, reasonable, people in Lebanon are the ones who oppose Hizbollah, or are at least neutral. Those inside the organization are murderous maniacs. And splitting those murderous maniacs into the radical ones, and the less radical ones, and nitpicking at their differing ideologies is idiocy.

It amazes me how far people are willing to go, even to the point of being apologetics for a murderous terror organization, just so they can maintain their anti-Israel agenda.

Make no mistake about it people. His argument is that only some people within Hizbollah are radicals, and by clear implication, the rest are not. See, Hizbollah is not that bad. It's just that it has a bunch of radicals in it, and everyone else in Hizbollah is perfectly fine.

It is absolutely mind-boggling to what depths a human being can sink in his defense of the indefensible.

As I was growing up as a kid and learning history, I had a problem conceptualizing how the whole world stood idly by as Nazis implemented their agenda. I learned the facts, but it was hard for my brain to process how the enlightened, liberal, educated, free Western world stood by in the 1930s as a radical regime commenced unspeakable crimes.

But I can now see. Exactly the same type of mentality is applied to different circumstances by P & S. His ilk will go to any lengths to maintain their anti-Israel agenda and to turn a blind eye to glaring reality in doing so. Sick.

[thatisnotme]

David Kelly wrote: What if Isreal just ingnored the USA and entered into peace talks with Hezbollah. They've sued for peace, now is the time to talk.

Hezbollah would interpret that as a sign of weakness. Been there, done that.

[Redruin]

Both sides have invested too much into the conflict. The only solution to the conflict is a diplomatic solution imposed upon Israel by the US. This will allow the Israel government to save face. You guys dug yourselves a hole and jumped in blindly. There is simply no military solution in Lebanon. You've tried it already. Now the enemy is better armed, trained, and more motivated, with unwavering support from the locals. Get out, stop the bombing, let the US broker a peace. The sooner done, the more Israeli and Lebanese lives will be saved. This could have been done day 1. It's folly to continue this madness, any major loss of Israeli soldiers will break the back of the war effort and the Israeli government will come under heavy siege for its mishandling of the war.

[thatisnotme]

Redruin wrote: Both sides have invested too much into the conflict. The only solution to the conflict is a diplomatic solution imposed upon Israel by the US. This will allow the Israel government to save face. You guys dug yourselves a hole and jumped in blindly. There is simply no military solution in Lebanon. You've tried it already. Now the enemy is better armed, trained, and more motivated, with unwavering support from the locals. Get out, stop the bombing, let the US broker a peace. The sooner done, the more Israeli and Lebanese lives will be saved. This could have been done day 1. It's folly to continue this madness, any major loss of Israeli soldiers will break the back of the war effort and the Israeli government will come under heavy siege for its mishandling of the war.

Read the situation: the US and Israel are in perfect agreement on this -- Hezbollah has to be rendered impotent in launching rockets on Israeli soil. This offensive will terminate only when that objective has been attained.

[Duchifas]

thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: Both sides have invested too much into the conflict. The only solution to the conflict is a diplomatic solution imposed upon Israel by the US. This will allow the Israel government to save face. You guys dug yourselves a hole and jumped in blindly. There is simply no military solution in Lebanon. You've tried it already. Now the enemy is better armed, trained, and more motivated, with unwavering support from the locals. Get out, stop the bombing, let the US broker a peace. The sooner done, the more Israeli and Lebanese lives will be saved. This could have been done day 1. It's folly to continue this madness, any major loss of Israeli soldiers will break the back of the war effort and the Israeli government will come under heavy siege for its mishandling of the war.

Read the situation: the US and Israel are in perfect agreement on this -- Hezbollah has to be rendered impotent in launching rockets on Israeli soil. This offensive will terminate only when that objective has been attained.

I don't read it that way. Israel's government is giving up. Now is the time to go in full force and clean up southern Lebanon. America was perfectly fine with it. And yesterday the Israeli government declared that they will not invade.

So that's that.

There will be another week or two of futile sending soldiers to die one on one with Hizbollah, and then they will pull back, Hizbollah will come out of their bunkers, wave their yellow flags and proceed to rapidly re-arm itself, leading to another round in a few years with missiles falling all over Israel.

This was the natural conclusion. You can't expect the moron (Peretz) who organized anti-Sharon demonstrations in 1982 and politically prevented Israel from winning, to intelligently prosecute a war in Lebanon.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291981273&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Nor can you expect the same from the prime minister, whose recent accomplishment includes aiding Sharon in making Gaza into Lebanon, and whose most strived to objective is to make West Bank into Lebanon also.

My sympathies to the citizens of Israel. With leaders like that, nobody needs enemies.

[thatisnotme]

Duchifas wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: Both sides have invested too much into the conflict. The only solution to the conflict is a diplomatic solution imposed upon Israel by the US. This will allow the Israel government to save face. You guys dug yourselves a hole and jumped in blindly. There is simply no military solution in Lebanon. You've tried it already. Now the enemy is better armed, trained, and more motivated, with unwavering support from the locals. Get out, stop the bombing, let the US broker a peace. The sooner done, the more Israeli and Lebanese lives will be saved. This could have been done day 1. It's folly to continue this madness, any major loss of Israeli soldiers will break the back of the war effort and the Israeli government will come under heavy siege for its mishandling of the war.

Read the situation: the US and Israel are in perfect agreement on this -- Hezbollah has to be rendered impotent in launching rockets on Israeli soil. This offensive will terminate only when that objective has been attained.

I don't read it that way. Israel's government is giving up. Now is the time to go in full force and clean up southern Lebanon. America was perfectly fine with it. And yesterday the Israeli government declared that they will not invade.

So that's that.

There will be another week or two of futile sending soldiers to die one on one with Hizbollah, and then they will pull back, Hizbollah will come out of their bunkers, wave their yellow flags and proceed to rapidly re-arm itself, leading to another round in a few years with missiles falling all over Israel.

This was the natural conclusion. You can't expect the moron (Peretz) who organized anti-Sharon demonstrations in 1982 and politically prevented Israel from winning, to intelligently prosecute a war in Lebanon.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291981273&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Nor can you expect the same from the prime minister, whose recent accomplishment includes aiding Sharon in making Gaza into Lebanon, and whose most strived to objective is to make West Bank into Lebanon also.

My sympathies to the citizens of Israel. With leaders like that, nobody needs enemies.

I agree with you that in the past, the leaders in the Knesset weren't forceful enough, and the dithering has more than anything else emboldened the enemy. But to be on the optimistic side, note that 30,000 reservists were called in. Also, Bush has not wavered so far, insisting that there should be a true peace, not a fake one (translation: Israel has his green light). And to be realistic, time is not on Israel's side with the media that has gone awry in showing casualties, turning public opinion against Israel. Nonetheless, the more damage is done to Hezbollah, the greater the message: Mess around with us, and it will cost you. In public, Hezbollah will show a brave face, but among them, they will know what a terrible miscalculation they made in the abduction of Israeli soldiers.

[Plato & Socrates]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Don't be so sure. Not everybody has a death-wish who's a member of Hizbollah. Likewise there will be factions within Hizbollah who don't believe in there current course. Like in any big organisation, there will be differing views and most importantly ideologies within Hizbollah. If Israel continues down this path, only the radical strain within the radical group of Hizbollah will prevail, and that's a guarantee.

In real honesty,do you think Israel has lessened support for Hizbollah and willing fighters to join the cause or increased the volunteer rate. If its the latter, then its a sheer failure for the lack of intelligent people within the Israeli government.

Duchifas wrote: This is an idiotic analysis because it implies that Hizbollah consists of these factions, one radical, and another that is perfectly reasonable and pragmatic.

Why not? Is it beyond your thinking that not all members of Hizbollah wish to fight? History is littered with radical groups who have shed their radical skins to become legitimate political parties. I could perfectly argue that various members of every Israeli government post 1948 have been radical, unreasonable and not pragmatic in dealing with their Arab neighbours. I'm not saying that Hizbollah is split 50/50, with a internal battle raging, with the radicals on one side and the pragmatists on the other.

Duchifas wrote: There are no normal people in Hizbollah. The normal, moderate, reasonable, people in Lebanon are the ones who oppose Hizbollah, or are at least neutral. Those inside the organization are murderous maniacs. And splitting those murderous maniacs into the radical ones, and the less radical ones, and nitpicking at their differing ideologies is idiocy.

Yawn :slp: O.k Duchifas. Did Hizbollah exist prior to Israels invasion of Lebanon in 1982? So Israels invasion in 1982, is solely responsible for the creation of Hizbollah. So you'll concede that prior to 1982 these people before joining Hizbollah had no genetic marker with the predisposition to want to kill Israeli's. You grouping them as all murderous maniacs is out of the G.W.Bush school of thinking. All of the 1000's of recruits who want to join Hizbollah after Israels latest bombing spree, they are all murderous maniac's too are'nt they? You silly boy. :roll:


The sad fact Duchifas, is that their will always be members of Hizbollah, who will not want to stop until every last Jew is out of Israel and the middle east as a whole. Its sad but true.
When the English made peace with the I.R.A. We changed our constitution so that Northern Ireland can go back to the Republic of Ireland, if a referendum took place and a vote of 50%+1 in favour of becoming part of the Rep of Ireland happened,then Ireland would be whole again. We also gave them real democratic powers and the ending of home rule, ie: being ruled from London. They had ministers in a government as well as M.E.Ps, councilors and represented in government at all levels. You think that would be enough for every member of the I.R.A would'nt you?

But you'd be wrong. For making peace with us British and not getting the British to give control of Northern Ireland back to the Rep of Ireland government. It was seen as a betrayal. When the I.R.A laid down their arms and stopped bombing and killing, the hardcore of the hardcore carried on. They called themselves the real I.R.A. they bombed Britain and killed quite a few. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
Once you give people only the same things you would want for yourself, these radical groups don't survive long.
Its called "Drain the swamp" for once you drain the swamp, mosquitoes cant breed. ie: take away the reason for people to fight (swamp) and the support (mosquitoes) falls away.

Duchifas wrote: It amazes me how far people are willing to go, even to the point of being apologetics for a murderous terror organization, just so they can maintain their anti-Israel agenda.

Where am i an apologist like you? I point out the fact that Hizbollah is an organisation who can be spoken to.
It does has a pragmatic side. This game of division Israel and the U.S plays of "I will talk to you, but not you"
belongs in kindergarten playground. You don't make peace with your friends, but your enemies.
Hizbollah is a proxy force in part. Thinking you can sideline Syria and Iran when solving this crisis, must go down in the annals of diplomatic stupidity of the century. You show the same symptoms when speaking of Hizbollah.

Ducifas wrote: Make no mistake about it people. His argument is that only some people within Hizbollah are radicals, and by clear implication, the rest are not. See, Hizbollah is not that bad. It's just that it has a bunch of radicals in it, and everyone else in Hizbollah is perfectly fine.

Is Hizbollah in the Lebanese government? They have never threatened the Lebanese government ie: other factions within the government, that if they don't get there way, expect violence. So therefore they are pragmatic and apply logic in there thinking. I dont like Hizbollah, as far as I'm concerned they have served there purpose. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years now. Its time to put down arms and go legitimate. Hizbollah has a support base in the south. Are all there supporters radical ? tut tut.

Duchifas wrote: It is absolutely mind-boggling to what depths a human being can sink in his defense of the indefensible.

Thats your specialty, nice try though. :)

Duchifas wrote: As I was growing up as a kid and learning history, I had a problem conceptualizing how the whole world stood idly by as Nazis implemented their agenda. I learned the facts, but it was hard for my brain to process how the enlightened, liberal, educated, free Western world stood by in the 1930s as a radical regime commenced unspeakable crimes.

Yes we all know that Nazi regime and the holocaust consumes you to a state of self-induced delirium.
Your Nazi and holocaust analogies are a running joke, but it never stops you giving them.
Yes I get the point, the holocaust was f**king grim, it was tragic, its shows the worst possible attributes in man. The Nazi regime what served it up was horrid. But must I be constantly reminded of it by you, I get the picture.
But sometimes I get the impression, when argument is lost, you pluck the heart strings of the holocaust and the Nazi regime to win support for your argument. Hizbollah is nothing like the third Reich, so stop using these analogies.

Duchifas wrote: But I can now see. Exactly the same type of mentality is applied to different circumstances by P & S. His ilk will go to any lengths to maintain their anti-Israel agenda and to turn a blind eye to glaring reality in doing so. Sick.

The same way my mind boggles that the children of the holocaust and the dispossessed can become such butchers (like their former Nazi oppressors)and dispossess those weaker than them in former Palestine?
Yes I am anti-Israeli government on many issues. Yet I wont blind myself to the blindingly obvious. I have as you well know, placed the blame for this latest crisis, firmly and squarely at the feet of Hizbollah. If the roles were reversed, what I have done in blaming Hizbollah is a totally alien concept to you. You somehow have this uncanny ability to justify every Israeli action. Just by using the law of averages, you should acknowledge that you must be wrong sometimes.

[mr_happy]

I see a lot of ideas, however I do not see any solution to the initial problem.. The two abducted soldiers. Those who oppose Israel's strategy would be obligated to show how to do this differently.


The best idea so far is the isolation of Southern lebanon. The british did that pretty well in Ireland and the Americans are finally learning how to do it in Iraq. apparently Containment is a pretty effective strategy.

[Moot]

Who knew Hezbollah could hold out this long?

Certainly not the Israelis. I understand the plan of attack has changed again now that the Israeli ground forces are starting to get bogged down and can't push north as fast as they would like. Just like the US underestimated the insurgency in Iraq, Israel has underestimated Hezbollah's military strength and resolve.

Today's Hezbollah has apparently been preparing for this very confrontation with Israel for quite awhile. Unfortunately, Hezbollah didn't share it's plans with the democratically elected leader of Lebanon. This is what changed my opinion of Hezbollah. Why did Hezbollah think it could act on its own and jeopardize all of Lebanon by attacking Israel? Yes, they had representation in the government, but they weren't the ruling party in Lebanon and they did not have the consent or the authority to attack Israel. So if not the Lebanese government, then where does Hezbollah get its authority? Iran?

Before this current conflict, Hezbollah was soon to be disarmed and phased out as the Lebanese army gained strength and took over Lebanons security. IOW, Hezbollah was soon to become irrelevant, defunct and unneccassary. But the only reason for Hezbollah's entire existence was to resist/oppose Israel. So if the new Lebanese government were to negotiate a peaceful co-existance with Israel, Hezbollah would no longer have validity or be neccessary.

So what does Hezbollah do?

It makes itself neccessary by creating a confrontation with Israel. This entire conflict is Hezbollah's doing and for what? For their f***ing ego, that's what. IMO, Hezbollah is no longer a resistance organization but has now evolved into a full fledged terrorist organization. They are to blame for the civilian deaths and the destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure. They started this war and now they are getting what they want.

I don't agree with the Israelis aggressive response in the name of self defense. NTL, the Israelis did vow that if Hezbollah ever attacked them, they would respond in the harshest manner possible. Now we know they meant what they said.

IMO for there to be peace in the ME, the US and Israel are ultimately going to have to suck it up and actually talk, negotiate and compromise with those who disagree with US foreign policy. Diplomacy and compromise isn't neccessary with those who already agree. IOW, the US is going to have use diplomacy and compromise with dissenting nations, instead of using bullets and bombs.

[thatisnotme]

Moot wrote: Who knew Hezbollah could hold out this long?

Certainly not the Israelis. I understand the plan of attack has changed again now that the Israeli ground forces are starting to get bogged down and can't push north as fast as they would like. Just like the US underestimated the insurgency in Iraq, Israel has underestimated Hezbollah's military strength and resolve.

Today's Hezbollah has apparently been preparing for this very confrontation with Israel for quite awhile. Unfortunately, Hezbollah didn't share it's plans with the democratically elected leader of Lebanon. This is what changed my opinion of Hezbollah. Why did Hezbollah think it could act on its own and jeopardize all of Lebanon by attacking Israel? Yes, they had representation in the government, but they weren't the ruling party in Lebanon and they did not have the consent or the authority to attack Israel. So if not the Lebanese government, then where does Hezbollah get its authority? Iran?

Before this current conflict, Hezbollah was soon to be disarmed and phased out as the Lebanese army gained strength and took over Lebanons security. IOW, Hezbollah was soon to become irrelevant, defunct and unneccassary. But the only reason for Hezbollah's entire existence was to resist/oppose Israel. So if the new Lebanese government were to negotiate a peaceful co-existance with Israel, Hezbollah would no longer have validity or be neccessary.

So what does Hezbollah do?

It makes itself neccessary by creating a confrontation with Israel. This entire conflict is Hezbollah's doing and for what? For their f***ing ego, that's what. IMO, Hezbollah is no longer a resistance organization but has now evolved into a full fledged terrorist organization. They are to blame for the civilian deaths and the destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure. They started this war and now they are getting what they want.

I don't agree with the Israelis aggressive response in the name of self defense. NTL, the Israelis did vow that if Hezbollah ever attacked them, they would respond in the harshest manner possible. Now we know they meant what they said.

IMO for there to be peace in the ME, the US and Israel are ultimately going to have to suck it up and actually talk, negotiate and compromise with those who disagree with US foreign policy. Diplomacy and compromise isn't neccessary with those who already agree. IOW, the US is going to have use diplomacy and compromise with dissenting nations, instead of using bullets and bombs.

I agree with your assessment on Hezbollah. But I don't agree with your idea that the US has to talk with the likes of Iran or Syria. The only policy with these fanatical regimes is, bomb first then talk.

[Duchifas]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: Don't be so sure. Not everybody has a death-wish who's a member of Hizbollah. Likewise there will be factions within Hizbollah who don't believe in there current course. Like in any big organisation, there will be differing views and most importantly ideologies within Hizbollah. If Israel continues down this path, only the radical strain within the radical group of Hizbollah will prevail, and that's a guarantee.

In real honesty,do you think Israel has lessened support for Hizbollah and willing fighters to join the cause or increased the volunteer rate. If its the latter, then its a sheer failure for the lack of intelligent people within the Israeli government.

Duchifas wrote: This is an idiotic analysis because it implies that Hizbollah consists of these factions, one radical, and another that is perfectly reasonable and pragmatic.

Why not? Is it beyond your thinking that not all members of Hizbollah wish to fight? History is littered with radical groups who have shed their radical skins to become legitimate political parties. I could perfectly argue that various members of every Israeli government post 1948 have been radical, unreasonable and not pragmatic in dealing with their Arab neighbours. I'm not saying that Hizbollah is split 50/50, with a internal battle raging, with the radicals on one side and the pragmatists on the other.

You can argue whatever the hell you want, but your arguments have zero correlation to reality. Israeli government sued for peace in 1948, and received a war of annihilation in response. Israeli government was ready to trade land for peace after the 1967 war, and received the three no's from Khartoum. The moment an Arab (Sadat) offered even a shi**y peace, Begin took it.

So you can argue that the Israelis have been radical and unreasonable till you turn blue in the face. All your arguments will do is highlight your utter ignorance of reality. As usual.

Quote: Yawn :slp: O.k Duchifas. Did Hizbollah exist prior to Israels invasion of Lebanon in 1982?

In name, Hizbollah appeared in 1982. In substance it was there long before, in various Shia militant groups, fighting in sectarian violence in Lebanon. Before 1982, Nasrallah was a member of Amal Shia militia.

Quote: So Israels invasion in 1982, is solely responsible for the creation of Hizbollah. So you'll concede that prior to 1982 these people before joining Hizbollah had no genetic marker with the predisposition to want to kill Israeli's. You grouping them as all murderous maniacs is out of the G.W.Bush school of thinking. All of the 1000's of recruits who want to join Hizbollah after Israels latest bombing spree, they are all murderous maniac's too are'nt they? You silly boy. :roll:

Israel's invasion is not solely responsible, the Iranian revolution and the exporting of its rabid ideology is significantly responsible for Hizbollah.

Also, please don't misrepresent the situation as if there are all these peaceful Lebanese youth, who mind their ow business, and then as soon as Israel bombs Lebanon, they all want to join Hizbollah en masse. That is false and misleading. Hizbollah actively recruits and brainwashes youth consistently. It runs military training camps, and a very efficient war machine. All these operate in time of relative peace. All these were taking place during the six years of Israeli restraint. The rockets and the fighters did not come out of nowhere. It took time to plan, set up, and train everyone. Hizbollah has been doing this actively for six years, under the nose of the UN and with the quiet nod of the Lebanese government. In six years, thousands of youth have been brainwashed and recruited to Hizbollah. It has nothing to do with Israel, aside from the fact that Israel is used by Hizbollah as a scapegoat to justify their existence.



This is how kids are initiated into Hizbollah.



And this is the final product of the long process of brainwashing and training.

It has nothing to do with thousands of youth trying to join due to Israeli bombing. It has everything to do with an active campaign to recruit and brainwash by Hizbollah during peace time, and it also has everything to do with the international community turning a blind eye to this for many years.

So stop your lies.

Quote: The sad fact Duchifas, is that their will always be members of Hizbollah, who will not want to stop until every last Jew is out of Israel and the middle east as a whole. Its sad but true.

Exactly. And it will be true whether Israel bombs Lebanon or whether it sits quietly, cowering in bomb shelters, as Hizbollah paralyzes Israeli cities. Now that you have acknowledged the phenomenon, that Hizbollah's aim is not to defend Lebanon, but to eliminate Israel, the only intellectually honest conclusion that a decent person can come to, is that Israel's war is fully justified, and you should support it.

Quote: When the English made peace with the I.R.A. We changed our constitution so that Northern Ireland can go back to the Republic of Ireland, if a referendum took place and a vote of 50%+1 in favour of becoming part of the Rep of Ireland happened,then Ireland would be whole again. We also gave them real democratic powers and the ending of home rule, ie: being ruled from London. They had ministers in a government as well as M.E.Ps, councilors and represented in government at all levels. You think that would be enough for every member of the I.R.A would'nt you?

But you'd be wrong. For making peace with us British and not getting the British to give control of Northern Ireland back to the Rep of Ireland government. It was seen as a betrayal. When the I.R.A laid down their arms and stopped bombing and killing, the hardcore of the hardcore carried on. They called themselves the real I.R.A. they bombed Britain and killed quite a few. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
Once you give people only the same things you would want for yourself, these radical groups don't survive long.
Its called "Drain the swamp" for once you drain the swamp, mosquitoes cant breed. ie: take away the reason for people to fight (swamp) and the support (mosquitoes) falls away.

I couldn't give less of a hoot about Ireland, because the situation is wholly irrelevant. Israel withdrew from every single inch of Lebanese territory, as certified by the United Nations.

Nothing will pacify Hizbollah, short of Israel withdrawing from every inch of Israeli territory. At some point a nation must fight those who want to eliminate it. Your utterly irrelevant rants about Northern Ireland have no place in this debate.

Quote: Where am i an apologist like you? I point out the fact that Hizbollah is an organisation who can be spoken to.
It does has a pragmatic side. This game of division Israel and the U.S plays of "I will talk to you, but not you"
belongs in kindergarten playground. You don't make peace with your friends, but your enemies.

Shove your idiotic cliches up yours. Last time I heard this idiotic cliche was from Rabin, as he was covincing the Israeli public that making peace with an arch-terrorist organization was good. The results of "making peace with enemies" shortly manifested themselves on Israeli streets, in Israeli buses, cafes and shopping malls. The Hamas terror state that is now in Gaza and West Bank is a direct consequence of "making peace with enemies." You should be a CNN reporter or something. They also love to naively put Israeli spokesmen on the spot with idiotic and meaningless cliches like "peace with enemies" and "cycle of violence" and "violence begets violence" and "how will this impact the peace process."

Quote: Hizbollah is a proxy force in part. Thinking you can sideline Syria and Iran when solving this crisis, must go down in the annals of diplomatic stupidity of the century. You show the same symptoms when speaking of Hizbollah.

From day one of this conflict, from my personal understanding of the situation, I said that the real target for Israeli air force should be Damascus, not Beirut. While Israel's retaliation against Lebanon is fully justified, but I don't think it was the wisest policy. Lastly, you cannot speak to Hizbollah. That does not work. You cannot negotiate or make deals with an entity that seeks your destruction. The painful lessons of that were learned with Palestinians. And the Hizbollah kidnapping of two soldiers was motivated by Israel's prior negotiation over kidnapped Israelis. The only thing that negtotiations with Hizbollah will lead to is more kidnappings in the future, and in each case, it will grow bolder, its demands will be more ambitious, and Israel will have to pay a higher price. Negotiatiating with those maniacs about anything, short of their unconditional surrender, is idiocy.

Quote: Is Hizbollah in the Lebanese government? They have never threatened the Lebanese government ie: other factions within the government, that if they don't get there way, expect violence.

What the hell are you talking about? Violence is their hallmark. Read Michael Totten's blog, if you are wholly ignorant. It is easy reading, even you can grasp it.

Quote: So therefore they are pragmatic and apply logic in there thinking. I dont like Hizbollah, as far as I'm concerned they have served there purpose. Israel pulled out of Lebanon 6 years now. Its time to put down arms and go legitimate. Hizbollah has a support base in the south. Are all there supporters radical ? tut tut.

All their supporters are not radical. I did not advocate eliminating all their supporters, did I? Hizbollah must be eliminated. As for their supporters, believe me, they will be more than taken care of by the Christians and the Druze after this is over. If you think for a second that after Israel stops firing there will be quiet in Lebanon, you are delusional.

Read Michael Totten's July 26 entry:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/

Quote: By bombing all of Lebanon rather than merely the concentrated Hezbollah strongholds, Israel is putting extraordinary pressure on Lebanese society at points of extreme vulnerability. The delicate post-war democratic culture has been brutally replaced, overnight, with a culture of rage and terror and war. Lebanon isn't Gaza, but nor is it Denmark.

Lebanese are temporarily more united than ever. No one is running off to join Hezbollah, but tensions are being smoothed over for now while everyone feels they are under attack by the same enemy. Most Lebanese who had warm feelings for Israel -- and there were more of these than you can possibly imagine -- no longer do.

This will not last.

My sources and friends in Beirut tell me most Lebanese are going easy on Hezbollah as much as they can while the bombs are still falling. But a terrible reckoning awaits them once this is over.

Some Lebanese can’t wait even that long.



Here a Christian mob smashes a car in Beirut for displaying a Hezbollah logo. My friend Carine says the atomosphere reeks of impending sectarian conflict like never before. Another Lebanese blogger quotes a radical Christian war criminal from the bad old days who says the civil war will resume a month after Israel cools its guns: "Christians, Sunnis and Druze will fight the 'F**K** Shia', with arms from the US and France."

It is unclear who will prevail, Hizbollah or the other Lebanese. But it is clear that Israel must pound Hizbollah for as long as they can, to maximally weaken it.

Quote: Yes we all know that Nazi regime and the holocaust consumes you to a state of self-induced delirium. Your Nazi and holocaust analogies are a running joke, but it never stops you giving them. Yes I get the point, the holocaust was f**king grim, it was tragic, its shows the worst possible attributes in man. The Nazi regime what served it up was horrid. But must I be constantly reminded of it by you, I get the picture.

I remind you because I see the same attitudes that allowed the Holocaust to take place repeating.

Quote: But sometimes I get the impression, when argument is lost, you pluck the heart strings of the holocaust and the Nazi regime to win support for your argument. Hizbollah is nothing like the third Reich, so stop using these analogies.

You bet they aren't. Nothing like it at all. I refer you to the pictures above.

Quote: The same way my mind boggles that the children of the holocaust and the dispossessed can become such butchers (like their former Nazi oppressors)and dispossess those weaker than them in former Palestine?
Yes I am anti-Israeli government on many issues. Yet I wont blind myself to the blindingly obvious. I have as you well know, placed the blame for this latest crisis, firmly and squarely at the feet of Hizbollah.

Yes you did. Right before telling us that Israel should talk to Hizbollah. That's called cognitive dissonance.

Quote: If the roles were reversed, what I have done in blaming Hizbollah is a totally alien concept to you. You somehow have this uncanny ability to justify every Israeli action. Just by using the law of averages, you should acknowledge that you must be wrong sometimes.

I do not justify every Israeli action. You've been reading this forum long enough to know that I believe that 75% of Israeli policies are suicidal follies.