Political Crossfire Forums

[Hyde]

i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

[Azuresidus]

Probably, I should start off by saying that, for the most part, I agree with you.

In the areas of the Pope and confessions, absolutely. The Pope is a man, a very old man who has devoted his life to becoming Pope, and that is all. And no one can wash away my sins, not even me.

Not only that, but I have issues with turning my sins over to anyone at all, including some savior. My sins are mine, some of them I regret, and some I don't. And some things that they would call sins, I very much enjoyed.

That said, corruption and the past are less important to me, but I won't dispute them. And perhaps history will repeat itself in some way, either with this faith or another. (Yes, I know, some never really leave history behind.)

However, I don't necessarily agree that Catholics or Christians are particularly ignorant. Brain-washed and a bit arrogant in their beliefs, perhaps. But who isn't, really? Most people believe that their beliefs are right, and it is so clear to them that they wonder why no one else can see it. This is true whether they are Catholic, another form of Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, or even Agnostic. It is so clear to you (and to me, by the way) that they can't know what they think they know that sometimes we can be just as wrapped up in our beliefs, or even condescending.

Another issue that you didn't give a heading or anything, but mentioned in passing was the attempted conversion of non-Catholics. I know that they mean well, but it can be pretty f*****g annoying. That said, I can't exactly condemn them for it. If I was absolutely sure (nevermind that I think they are wrong, from their perspective it is the truth) that someone I loved would end up in torment forever, I would try to convince them to do whatever I knew they needed to do to prevent it. Still, annoying.

And after all of that, I feel the need to mention... Catholics aren't the only religious group that alot of this may apply to. They are not exactly special in that their beliefs can be seen as controvercial to those of us not "in the club."

[Gilbert1908]

Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

You could not be a more obvious candidate to apply this quote from Fulton Sheen.


"there are about 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, there are millions who hate what they wrongly believe the Catholic Church to be."

We have dealt with all of the issues you bring up in many other threads, I suggest you read them.

Simplistic and erroneous generalizations made up out of ignorance and bigotry to illicit replies are unworthy of much more than this.

[John]

Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

John wrote: Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

So, when are you going to explain to me why you believe that God rewards Christians based on tenure, and gives up on unrepentant sinners?

[John]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

So, when are you going to explain to me why you believe that God rewards Christians based on tenure, and gives up on unrepentant sinners?

Think about it this way, if you step into eternity as an unrepentant sinner, you'll forever be an unrepentant sinner. If you step into eternity hating God....what do you think you will be for all eternity?

[Lumina]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

You could not be a more obvious candidate to apply this quote from Fulton Sheen.

"there are about 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, there are millions who hate what they wrongly believe the Catholic Church to be."

We have dealt with all of the issues you bring up in many other threads, I suggest you read them.

Simplistic and erroneous generalizations made up out of ignorance and bigotry to illicit replies are unworthy of much more than this.

And they're exhausting to read too. Not to mention offensive.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

As a thrice-lapsed Catholic myself, I understand what you're saying. However, a lot of it is pointless.

Catholics, like any other religion, have a moral and religious system that makes absolute sense to anyone willing to buy into a certain set of dogmas. What you should be questioning, and challenging, about Catholicism is not the outward expression of these dogmas, but the dogmas themselves. I refer not just to the church's "official" dogma, but to the basic tenets of belief.

The pope is a pretty simple proposition. He's the one who corrects internal dissent. He unifies the church. He rises through the hierarchy, and is elected, to be sure, but the conclave spends days in seclusion and prayer to decide who the pope will be. The election is guided, in their minds, by the holy spirit. And therefore after, the pope is merely the leader of the church, much like Peter the Apostle--in all actuality not specially holy, prone to the pitfalls and mistakes that man is wont to. But when he declares a principle of faith and morals, in his capacity as head of the church, which is believed to be the "body of Christ" and therefore both earthly and divine, he is believed to be speaking with infallible authority.

Secondly, the church is old and powerful, but it is not as rich as you might think. Realize that many of the church's assets are in land, buildings, and works of art. It is not poor, but it is not possessing unlimited wealth. If it were, then several of its American dioceses would not be forced to sell off land in order to pay for the legal ramifications of clergy child abuse.

Third, the "ignorance." The simple fact of life is that each of us believes what makes us most comfortable. We might delude ourselves into thinking that we are choosing the "hard" path by "rejecting the material ways of the world," "fighting the establishment," or "seeking truth, no matter how terrible." But people ultimately choose what gives them the most comfort--and often what makes them feel more important--because at the root of it we have no proof what happens when we die, and a whole lot of us, being sentient, feeling beings, are scared **** about it. So some of us believe that this is but one of many lives, or that if we live a certain way, when we die, we will be eternally rewarded, in the light of God or feasting in Valhalla or what have you. Personally, I like the answer the character House gives in the show of the same name. I'm not comfortable with the idea that life, with all of its highs and lows, love and hate, knowledge, and wonders, is just a test. But then again, what makes us comfortable is much a product of our upbringing. I'm more inclined to enjoy life and its wonders because I grew up in middle-class America, with every opportunity. A child starving in a ditch in a Brazilian slum is probably more comfortable believing that there is something better for him beyond this suffering. I think very strongly that this fervent wish is how Christianity has become so widespread--but I digress.

Fourth, the church has been corrupt at times--and I agree with you that this is a problem. While we could take a line from "Dogma" and say that the past transgressions of the church have nothing to do with the current incarnation of Holy Mother Church, that hundreds of years of corruption were human mistakes and that the true faith lives on--the structure, ritual, and doctrines of the church were shaped during even these years. And if a church is to be the body of Christ--how could it prove to be so corruptible?

Additionally, Catholics don't condemn non-Christians to hell. Well, mainstream Catholics don't. That's why a lot of other Christians were so pissed off at JPII during his life--he refused outright to condemn anyone based on their religious affiliation. That's because the church has taken the very rational position of saying that while Catholics know that Christ is the "sure path" to salvation, the actual decision is finally left up to God, and that we as mere human beings cannot even begin to comprehend his mercy.

Confession is an interesting thing. The idea is that the priest does not forgive your sins, but that Christ does, acting through him. I think it's bulls**t, but I'm not a Catholic. You're going to have to talk to Gilbert about this one, because I'm not sure that I've ever understood why this is logically important--only that it makes people feel really good and perpetuates the psychological hold of guilt upon Catholics. But anyway, I'm trying to be helpful.

Any belief system, especially Catholicism, makes sense within its own system. Within its own assumptions and dogmas, the Church makes perfect sense. For someone who doesn't believe in the divinity and significance of the sacrifice of Christ, for someone who doesn't believe in the holy spirit guiding the church, which is the body of Christ on earth, for someone who doesn't believe that the clergy are merely successors to the apostles, for someone who doesn't buy into the eternal rewards system, for someone who doesn't assume all of the basic tenets of the religion, it makes no sense. But for someone on the "inside," it makes all the sense in the world. We can argue the validity of the assumptions and get somewhere, but a nonbeliever arguing with a believer about the finer points of faith, points that are based upon those assumptions, will almost always venture into an intellectual wasteland--because since both have very different assumptions, both will inevitably reach different conclusions.

Not that I don't try anyway. :P

[The Central Scrutinizer]

John wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

So, when are you going to explain to me why you believe that God rewards Christians based on tenure, and gives up on unrepentant sinners?

Think about it this way, if you step into eternity as an unrepentant sinner, you'll forever be an unrepentant sinner. If you step into eternity hating God....what do you think you will be for all eternity?

You're not answering the question that I asked. Please return to Nathyn's thread and rebut there, because this is a different topic. In fact, here is a link.

I'm asking why you think that God gives up on sinners in this life, and why you think that in the next life those who spent their whole lives as Christians will have a "brighter" heaven those who repent late in life. I'm not the only one who is curious how you acquired these very non-Christian beliefs.

[John]

Quote: I'm asking why you think that God gives up on sinners in this life

Do you think God has given up on you?

[Hyde]

in my post i was speaking out against religion in general as much as i was the catholic church. i just have the most problem with catholics and their beliefs.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

John wrote: Quote: I'm asking why you think that God gives up on sinners in this life

Do you think God has given up on you?

As I already said, this thread is new and on a completely unrelated subject. I would rather continue here. I will respond there.

[Hyde]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

You could not be a more obvious candidate to apply this quote from Fulton Sheen.


"there are about 100 people who the Catholic Church, there are millions who what they wrongly believe the Catholic Church to be."

so what am i so wrong about? you havent seem to replied to my post yet.

Quote: We have dealt with all of the issues you bring up in many other threads, I suggest you read them.

i never got very good answer from my other thread so i decided instead of making 20 threads to get good answers, i will group them all into one :wink:

Quote: Simplistic and erroneous generalizations made up out of ignorance and bigotry to illicit replies are unworthy of much more than this.

are you a catholic?

[perdidochas]

Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

There is fundamentally no difference between Protestant individuals who think they can reliably interpret scripture, and the Pope doing so. If you believe the first, you should believe the second.

In terms of infallibility, the last infallible statement made was, IIRC, in 1954. Infallible statements, historically, are not made merely at the Pope's whim. Most are pretty much statements of things that the Magisterium (the Cardinals and Bishops) think need clarifying, and that most (if not all) agree with.

In terms of theological opinions, who better to trust? Me, who has little theological background, or people who've spent their life studying it. I don't diagnose myself medically for the same reason.

Hyde wrote: secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

The power of the Pope over Catholics is greatly exaggerated. Heck, most Catholics I know disagree with the Pope over the Iraq war, and now, with his statements about Israel.

Hyde wrote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

Growing up, most Catholics I knew were intellectuals or the children of intellectuals.

Also, to be so critical of Catholicism you are extremely ignorant of it. It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

Here's what the Catechism says about non-Christians, etc.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:


All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:


Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334



Hyde wrote: fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

See above

Hyde wrote: fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

How is confession to a priest any less effective than confession to God alone?

Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to forgive sins. Catholics believe that priests are the successors to the Apostles.

Hyde wrote: lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

It might. The Catholic Church like any group of humans is imperfect. Humans are power-mad, greedy, selfish, etc. Churches can be just as bad.

Hyde wrote: i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

You need to research and learn more about the true position of the Catholic Church on things before ranting against it. You just prove your ignorance of the Catholic Church when you rant without looking things up.

[perdidochas]

Hyde wrote: i thought i should explain why i am not a big fan of catholisism.

first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him? the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that. they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous. the pope is just a priest who has slowly risen to power through the catholic church. he is nothing more. and i fail to see why that suddenly makes him so great and why i should listen to what he says. and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says? i have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that? if you think something is a sin, dont do it. how weakminded can you be to have to have other people makee religious descions for you? also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that. and like i said above, why do people even listen to what he says? why dont they form their own opinions instead of taking others?

There is fundamentally no difference between Protestant individuals who think they can reliably interpret scripture, and the Pope doing so. If you believe the first, you should believe the second.

In terms of infallibility, the last infallible statement made was, IIRC, in 1954. Infallible statements, historically, are not made merely at the Pope's whim. Most are pretty much statements of things that the Magisterium (the Cardinals and Bishops) think need clarifying, and that most (if not all) agree with.

In terms of theological opinions, who better to trust? Me, who has little theological background, or people who've spent their life studying it. I don't diagnose myself medically for the same reason.

Hyde wrote: secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.

The power of the Pope over Catholics is greatly exaggerated. Heck, most Catholics I know disagree with the Pope over the Iraq war, and now, with his statements about Israel.

Hyde wrote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.

Growing up, most Catholics I knew were intellectuals or the children of intellectuals.

Also, to be so critical of Catholicism you are extremely ignorant of it. It's sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

Here's what the Catechism says about non-Christians, etc.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:


All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:


Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334



Hyde wrote: fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.

See above

Hyde wrote: fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
so what gives them the sudden power to wash away my sins?

How is confession to a priest any less effective than confession to God alone?

Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to forgive sins. Catholics believe that priests are the successors to the Apostles.

Hyde wrote: lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.

It might. The Catholic Church like any group of humans is imperfect. Humans are power-mad, greedy, selfish, etc. Churches can be just as bad.

Hyde wrote: i am now tired of typing so i ask, what are your thoughts?

You need to research and learn more about the true position of the Catholic Church on things before ranting against it. You just prove your ignorance of the Catholic Church when you rant without looking things up.

[Todd D.]

Quote: first, the pope. what is their obsesion with this man? why do you need to listen to this mans every whim? why is it that catholics obey him?
We aren't under any moral obligation to "obey" the Pope on most matters. "Listen" would be a better term. Why do we listen to him? Because Jesus told us to.

Quote: the pope is man and many catholics dont seem to know that.
Every Catholic knows that.

Quote: they seem to see him as someone sent from down from God which is totaly ridiculous.
Why is that totally ridiculous?

Quote: and furthermore, shouldnt people make their own descions about God, and not listen to whatever this man or his church says?
If you want to learn Greek Philosophy, do you think you can just pick up The Republic and learn all there is to know, or are you going to listen to the people that have come before you? The Pope is a man whose office dates back all the way to St. Peter, who personally knew Jesus. To suggest that the experience of that office is worthless is quite silly, in my opinion.

Quote: have known many people who have actaully gone to the church and asked the preist if this or that was a sin and if they should stop doing it. how ridiculous is that?
It's not ridiculous at all. If I was unsure on a law, I would ask a cop if something was or wasn't illegal, why not ask someone in that authority?

Quote: also, how can the pope (and i know this is only on certain things but still) be infallible? how is it that he is closer to God than say, me. the pope is a man and he comes with everything that man is entitled like fallibilty. no man be 100% correct. only God can boast that.
The Pope, through the intervention of the Holy Spirit, guides the Church. In that regard, God has promised to guide the office and make sure that it teaches correct doctrine. It's more a gift of God than any claim of a man.

Quote: secondly, corruption. as you know, the catholic church is extremly rich and extremly powerful. this whole religion is headed by one man. a man who has power to persuade millions of catholics to one way or the other. i dont think i need to explain how easily corrupted this is. the catholic church has so much pull its insane. if a pope came up and had his own little political agenda on his side, he could change things, probably for the worse.
"So much pull?" How so? He is against the Death Penalty, yet the most powerful nation on the planet still has it. He was against the Iraq war, yet we still went. I could go on. Maybe in the Middle Ages, but the Pope's political power today is quite limited.

Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong.
If I say that Jesus is God, then I must believe that anyone that says Jesus is not God to be wrong. That's simply a definition. It speaks nothing on the person themselves, nor does it make someone ignorant to hold that true.

Quote: everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple. their relgion is their religion and i accept that. but to say everyone who is not of your beleif is going to hell? and then saying that to my face as some kniid of scare tactic to make me convert? its ridiculous. FYI to catholics, it extremly ignorant to think of your religion as the only right one. as i have said before, nobody knows for sure. only God. but yet you still try and present your personal beliefs off as true fact.
Catholicism does not teach that Muslims, Jews, or even Hindus DEFINITELY go to Hell. As you said, nobody knows for sure. They flat out say that in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Quote: fourthly, i cant help but disagree with accepting christ as your savior is the only way to get to heaven. i have mentioned this in my above paragraph but i wish to expand. to say that a child who lives in isreal is going to hell because his parents are jewish and he took up their religion is just plain stupid. i have also heard some christians say that accepting christ as yor savior is the ony sure way to get to heaven, which i also think is ridicoulus. why would God give someone a leg up because they were born in a wildly christian poplulated area? idont believe that he would.
Fine. When you get to be God, then you can institute your policies. I'm not saying that I think all Jews go to Hell, I'm saying that I don't know. You aren't saying "I don't know", you are saying "That is stupid if Jews can't go to Heaven". Big difference.

Quote: fifthly, confession. i disagree wholeheartedly with confessing my sins to a man. what sway does a priest have with God that i do not?
Because they are successors to the Apostles who were granted that power. It's in Scripture. Jesus breathed on them and "gave them the power to forgive sins".

Quote: what sway does a priest have with God that i do not? how is it somehow diffrent if i ask God for forgiveness myself than asking some priest? i probably have a closer relashinship with God than most priests.
Why do you say "probably"?

Quote: lastly, a terrible past. i dont think i have to lecture you on the gruesome past of the catholic church. the slaughters, the , the burning of heretics just because the believe something diffrent. the catholic church has done terrible things in the name of God. wars fought over because some pope willed it and he rallied the troops all by saying "God wills it". people put trust in the catholic church to guide them and the church decided to make its own political agenda and have millions killed because of it. the catholic church did these things, and i am not conviced that that hatred has left them. i am not impling that the church is going to slaughter thousands of people any time soon. just that the church used their sway, their pull, their religion terribly before and i am not convinced that it will not happen agian.
Mankind has a terrible history, what's your point? There's nothing especialyl gruesome about Catholicism's past that isn't part of any other ethnicity or religious group, so I'm not sure why your objection here is localized specifcally on Catholicism.

I would also like to point out that the atrocities that the Catholic Church comitted, while terrible, have been grossly exagerrated over the years.

As Gilbert said, most of your objections are over half-truths and misconceptions.

[perdidochas]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

So, when are you going to explain to me why you believe that God rewards Christians based on tenure, and gives up on unrepentant sinners?

God doesn't reward Christians based on tenure. See the parable of the workers in the vineyard--the last workers got paid the same as the first. God doesn't give up on unrepentant sinners--unrepentant sinners give up on God.

[MtW]

To start, I was raised catholic and I am still catholic (albiet a few trialing years inbetween).

Having said that, I have to say that there are people in the catholic church with which I disagree. I find a number of people in their faith to be hypocrits. I find that in a lot of religions. Not just catholicism.

The pope, I don't always agree with what he says; however I do admire him for the influence he has and in the past how he uses his influence for the potential "betterment" of society. He isn't the only one in "power"; there is acutally a Vatican full of people that help advise and debate situations.

I tend not to go to church every sunday, i don't confess to a priest, etc. There are a lot of things that may make one think that I'm not a devote catholic...I still consider myself so.

I have to say I agree with the (I think it was Gandhi's) idea that "for every man there is a different religion"; that each person worships his/her god in their own way or have beliefs in their religion that others don't share with them.

What draws me to my faith? "I like your Christ, I do not like your christians. Your christians are so unlike your Christ".

I find that the catholics are pretty good (as far as the churches I have seen) about offering asistance to those in need. Sort of like the mormons do for themselves, but for anyone.

[John]

My opinion of Catholicism has improved greatly due to conversation with Catholics on this forum. I still disagree enough with some of thier beliefs to not actually practice Catholicism, but I do now believe them to be true members of Christ's Church (which is what really matters anyway).

[The Central Scrutinizer]

perdidochas wrote: The Central Scrutinizer wrote: John wrote: Quote: thirdly, ignorance. catholics, and most christians are etremly ignorant. they are so obsessed with themselves they give no room for their religion to be wrong. everything is cut-n-dry. "if you dont accept christ as your savior, you go to hell. that simple". when really its not that simple.


That's gotta be the hypocritical statement of the century.




And BTW...it pretty much is that simple.

So, when are you going to explain to me why you believe that God rewards Christians based on tenure, and gives up on unrepentant sinners?

God doesn't reward Christians based on tenure. See the parable of the workers in the vineyard--the last workers got paid the same as the first. God doesn't give up on unrepentant sinners--unrepentant sinners give up on God.

Oh, I know that this is the teaching of Christianity. I am asking John why he expressed an opinion contrary to that.