Political Crossfire Forums

[Pi_314]

vld1 wrote: unseen wrote: I must say that i already knew how f****d the Israelis were but i did not know they were this F***d up. They dont even think of Palestinians as humans they treat the Palestinians as if they were animals, and they will use cunning ways to get Americans public opinions in Israels favor so that their actions are looked at as self defense mechanisms.

If you buy into the whole preception of Palestinians as being terrorist you better take some time and watch this video.

Are you all forgetting how this mess started in a first place?
Hezbollah crossed the border , killed 8 Israeli soldiers and killed 2.
What sovereign country would stand for this? Then those Hezbollah cowards keep launching rockets from locations close to civilians population. What is Israel is supposed to do? All that needs to happen is Hezbollah has to return the kidnapped soldiers and stop hurling Katushas
accross Israeli border. Why the f**ck cant they do it?
Now as far as the whole "unlawfull" occupation of Palestine , let me ask this: do you know that half of territory of present day Turkey consists of
Armenian land , including their ancient and as recent as 19th century capital Erzerum (all of this possible due to successfull Armenian genocide), how about USA and the native Indians ? 6 millions Jews
were murdered during WWII , for thousands of years they were
persecuted and murdered, now for a change they have a chance to defend themselves because nobody else whould do this for them.

If Israel went home after the 67 war and respected borders....we wouldn't be having anywhere near the problems of today. Israel is at fault here. No question about it.

[superskippy]

Quote: As you people throw statistics at one another and prove why each one of you is 100% correct, I have a question. Why is Israel destroying Lebanon and murdering more civilians every hour? As an Irish man (of a neutral nation) I must also ask why the commanding Irish officer in the UN peace corps sent to Lebanon has had to personally ask Israel to stop striking their headquarters 6 times in the past 2 days, as they do not want end up like the 4 UN peacekeepers who Israel murdered yesterday. I doubt you would recieve that information on FOX though.

Because a common tactic among Hezbollah is to deploy rocket batteries near the UN compounds because they normally benefit from a free fire umbrella, we thus have to hit closer to the compounds to clear away Hezbollah. And sometimes we miss.

Quote: If Israel went home after the 67 war and respected borders....we wouldn't be having anywhere near the problems of today. Israel is at fault here. No question about it.

I must respectfully call a "bulls**t" on that. We were facing this problam well before 1967 and had buried more than 3,000 of our people from raids and attacks from 1948-1967 roughly 20 years of conflict with the Palestinians before we had the 1967 war.

And actually for a long period of time attacks were actually smaller when we had the territories under control since the PLO and other organizations couldnt set up bases amongst the regions and had to rely with crossing the border from Jordan and Egypt or Syria and Lebanon. As Jordan and Egypt evicted them and killed close to 20,000 of them they then were religated to moving from Syria and Lebanon. After we destroyed their massive presence in Lebanon they only had Syria.

If you notice our main issue were the terror attacks that involved gunmen slipping the border to get hostages to execute. Not attacks from the territories or on Israel itself.

The attacks have gone up since we loosened our grip and our pressure on neighboring countries. We have found that a deadly error and are applying the pressure as best we can.

[topnut]

vld1 wrote: unseen wrote: I must say that i already knew how f****d the Israelis were but i did not know they were this F***d up. They dont even think of Palestinians as humans they treat the Palestinians as if they were animals, and they will use cunning ways to get Americans public opinions in Israels favor so that their actions are looked at as self defense mechanisms.

If you buy into the whole preception of Palestinians as being terrorist you better take some time and watch this video.

Are you all forgetting how this mess started in a first place?
Hezbollah crossed the border , killed 8 Israeli soldiers and killed 2.
What sovereign country would stand for this? Then those Hezbollah cowards keep launching rockets from locations close to civilians population. What is Israel is supposed to do? All that needs to happen is Hezbollah has to return the kidnapped soldiers and stop hurling Katushas
accross Israeli border. Why the f**ck cant they do it?
Now as far as the whole "unlawfull" occupation of Palestine , let me ask this: do you know that half of territory of present day Turkey consists of
Armenian land , including their ancient and as recent as 19th century capital Erzerum (all of this possible due to successfull Armenian genocide), how about USA and the native Indians ? 6 millions Jews
were murdered during WWII , for thousands of years they were
persecuted and murdered, now for a change they have a chance to defend themselves because nobody else whould do this for them.

They're not DEFENDING themselves! That's how brainwashe you are. THEY are the OCCUPIERS. Do you understand that. It's no different than a gang breaking into your house, staying there and then when you fight back to get them out, you are the one being labeled the bad guy!

Again, Israel is the one occupying Palestine. They are the ones who are committing the offence and the Palestinians are ones DEFENDING themselves.

[topnut]

thatisnotme wrote: topnut wrote: please watch this video and find out who the real terrorists are

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

Funny that no mention was made of UN resolution 181(1947), which called upon two states: one for the Jews; and another one for the Arabs, which the Arabs are still rejecting in 2006.

They refected it because the so called Arab state was nothing more than a Jewish state which controlled their borders and their airspace. This so called Arab state would also have to accept the Jewish settlements. What kind of offer is that!

[thatisnotme]

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the League of Nations granted the British and the French temporary colonial administration over former Ottoman provinces south of present day Turkey. These regions had been called vilayets under the Ottomans, but were referred to as mandates at the time, after the process that allocated them. The two powers drew arbitrary borders, dividing the area into four sections. Three of these—Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon—survive to this day as states.

The fourth section was created from what had been known as "southern Syria". The region was officially named the British Mandate of Palestine, and was called "Falastin" in Arabic and "Palestina (E.I.)" in Hebrew. The British revised its borders repeatedly, but under the direction of Winston Churchill the region was divided along the Jordan River, forming two administrative regions. The portion east of the Jordan River was then known as Transjordan, and later became the Kingdom of Jordan. The area to the west of the Jordan retained the former name of Palestine.

At that time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews, 71,500 Christians and 7,600 others (1922 census). However, this area gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe). This immigration and accompanying call for a Jewish state in Palestine drew violent opposition from local Arabs, in part because of Zionism's stated goal of a Jewish state, which would require the subjugation or the removal of the existing non-Jewish population. Theodor Herzl at one time wrote that the indigenous population could be motivated to leave if they were given jobs in other countries. Herzl also wrote about the possibility of a harmonious partnership of Jews, Arabs and Christians in which Jewish capital and expertise would transform Palestine from its third world status into an advanced society where all would benefit. Some Zionists, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, believed in Revisionist Zionism. Jabotinsky wrote in The Iron Wall (1923) that an agreement with the Arabs was impossible, and that military force would be required to establish a Jewish state. Other Zionists believed in Labor Zionism, and had strong socialist leanings. They organized the labor movement in Palestine, and joined with the Palestinian masses in campaigns for improved wages and working conditions.

Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were evacuated.


The Great Arab Revolt (1936–1939)

In the late 1920s and early 1930s several factions of Palestinian society became impatient with the internecine divisions and ineffectiveness of the Palestinian elite and engaged in grass-roots anti-British and anti-Zionist activism organized by groups such as the Young Men's Muslim Association. There was also support for the growth in influence of the radical nationalist Independence Party (Hizb al-Istiqlal), which called for a boycott of the British in the manner of the Indian Congress Party. Most of these initiatives were contained and defeated by notables in the pay of the Mandatory Administration, particularly the mufti and his cousin Jamal al-Husayni. The death of the preacher Shaykh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam at the hands of the British police near Jenin in November 1935 generated widespread outrage and huge crowds accompanied Qassam's body to his grave in Haifa. A few months later a spontaneous Arab national general strike broke out. This lasted until October 1936. During the summer of that year thousands of Jewish-farmed acres and orchards were destroyed, Jews were attacked and killed and some Jewish communities, such as those in Beisan and Acre, fled to safer areas. In the wake of the strike and the Peel Commission recommendation of partition of the country into a small Jewish state and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan, an armed uprising spread through the country. Over the next 18 months the British lost control of Jerusalem, Nablus and Hebron. During this period from 1936–1939, known as the Great Arab Revolt or the "Great Uprising", British forces, supported by 6,000 armed Jewish auxiliary police, suppressed the widespread riots with overwhelming force. This resulted in the deaths of 5,000 Palestinians and the wounding of 10,000. In total 10 per cent of the adult male population was killed, wounded, imprisoned, or exiled (see Khalidi, 2001). The Jewish population suffered 400 killed; the British 200. In another significant development during this time the British officer Charles Orde Wingate (who supported a Zionist revival for religious reasons) organized Special Night Squads composed of British soldiers and Haganah volunteers, which "scored significant successes against the Arab rebels in the lower Galilee and in the Jezreel valley" by conducting raids on Arab villages. The squads were known for an excessive and indiscriminate use of force, much of which has been documented by Israeli academic Anita Shapira. The Haganah mobilised up to 20,000 policemen, field troops and night squads; the latter included Yigal Allon and Moshe Dayan. Significantly, from 1936 to 1945, whilst establishing collaborative security arrangements with the Jewish Agency (see below for details), the British confiscated 13,200 firearms from Arabs and 521 weapons from Jews.

In assessing the overall impact of the revolt on subsequent events Rashid Khalidi argues that its negative effects on Palestinian national leadership, social cohesion and military capabilities contributed to the outcome of 1948 because "when the Palestinians faced their most fateful challenge in 1947–49, they were still suffering from the British repression of 1936–39, and were in effect without a unified leadership. Indeed, it might be argued that they were virtually without any leadership at all".

The attacks on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: First, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah ("The Defense"), which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish immigration. However, with the advent of World War II, even this reduced immigration quota was not reached. The White Paper policy also radicalized segments of the Jewish population, who after the war would no longer cooperate with the British.


Collaboration between the British Mandate administration and the Yishuv
From 1936 onward the British government facilitated the training, arming, recruitment and funding of a range of security and intelligence forces in collaboration with the Jewish Agency. These included the Guards (Notrim), which were divided into the 6,000 to 14,000-strong Jewish Supernumerary Police, the élite and highly mobile 6,000–8,000 strong Jewish Settlement Police and the Special Night Squads, the forerunner of Britain's Special Air Service regiments. There was also an élite strike force known as the FOSH, or Field Companies, with around 1,500 members, which were replaced by the larger HISH or Field Force in 1939. The SHAI, the intelligence and counter-espionage arm of the Haganah, was the forebear of Mossad.


World War II
On 6 August 1940 Anthony Eden, the Secretary of State for War, informed Parliament that the Cabinet had decided to recruit Arab and Jewish units as battalions of the Royal East Kent Regiment (the "Buffs"). At a luncheon with Chaim Weizmann on 3 September Winston Churchill approved the large-scale recruitment of Jewish forces in Palestine and the training of their officers. A further 10,000 men (no more than 3,000 from Palestine) were to be recruited to Jewish units in the British Army for training in the United Kingdom.

Faced with Field Marshal Rommel's advance in Egypt, the British government decided on 15 April 1941 that the 10,000 Jews dispersed in the single defense companies of the Buffs should be prepared for war service at the battalion level and that another 10,000 should also be mobilized along with 6,000 Supernumerary Police and 40,000 to 50,000 home guard. The plans were approved by Field Marshall John Dill. The Special Operations Executive (SOE) in Cairo approved a Haganah proposal for guerrilla activities in northern Palestine led by the Palmach, as part of which Yitzhak Sadeh devised Plan North for an armed enclave in the Carmel range from which the Yishuv could defend the region and from which they could attack Nazi communications and supply lines, if necessary. British intelligence also trained a small radio network under Moshe Dayan to act as spy cells in the event of a German invasion.

After much hesitation, on 3 July 1944 the British government consented to the establishment of a Jewish Brigade with hand-picked Jewish and also non-Jewish senior officers. On 20 September 1944 an official communique by the War Office announced the formation of the Jewish Brigade Group of the British Army. The Zionist flag was officially approved as its standard. It included more than 5,000 Jewish volunteers from Palestine organized into three infantry battalions and several supporting units.

As soon as the war ended British policy reverted to that of the period immediately before the war and arms were confiscated and some Haganah members were arrested and tried, one notable case being that of Eliahu Sacharoff who received a sentence of seven years' imprisonment for possession of two more cartridges than his firearms licence allowed.


The British responded to the Arab opposition in a number of ways. They kept their distance from the attacks on the Jewish communities, only becoming involved when they deemed it absolutely necessary. Notably, they did not attempt to protect the caravans of food, people, and supplies that traveled to Jerusalem. The hills along the main road to the capital provided staging grounds for Fawzi Al-Qawuqji's bandits. The British, to demonstrate that the road was open, would run a single armored car along the route every couple of days, but would not escort caravans up to the besieged city. Many incidents of British action or inaction have been recorded from different perspectives and with different accounts of the facts.


Twilight of colonial rule in the region
Meanwhile, many of the surrounding Arab nations were also emerging from colonial rule. Transjordan, under the Hashemite ruler Abdullah, gained independence from Britain in 1946, but it remained under heavy British influence. The British placed Abdullah's half-brother Faisal on the throne in Iraq. The Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936 included provisions by which Britain would maintain a garrison of troops on the Suez Canal. From 1945 on, Egypt attempted to renegotiate the terms of this treaty, which was viewed as a humiliating vestige of colonialism. Lebanon became an independent state in 1943, but French troops would not withdraw until 1946, the same year that Syria won its independence from France.

In 1945, at British prompting, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Transjordan, and Yemen formed the Arab League to coordinate policy between the Arab states. Iraq and Transjordan coordinated policies closely, signing a mutual defense treaty, while Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia feared that Transjordan would annex part or all of Palestine, and use it as a basis to attack or undermine Syria, Lebanon, and the Hijaz.


UN Partition Plan
Main article: 1947 UN Partition Plan
On 29 November 1947 the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan, UN General Assembly Resolution 181, to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. Each state would comprise three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads; the Arab state would also have an enclave at Jaffa. In consideration of their religious significance, the Jerusalem area, including Bethlehem, was assigned to an international zone to be administered by the UN. Although both Jews and Arabs criticized aspects of the plan, the resolution was welcomed by most of the Jewish population, including the Jewish Agency, but was considered unacceptable by the Arab population in Palestine and by the surrounding Arab states.

[topnut]

This is another video of the horrors of Zionism.

This video is put out by Jews against Zionism and includes interviews with holocaust survivors.

Israel is systematically killing palestinians and using the holocaust as an excuse to make it all right. Their occupation and genocide of Palestine's Arab population is no less apalling than the very holocaust they use as an excuse to further their goals and agendas.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6519655078961670837&q=jews+against+zionism

[MoscowMatt]

mai wrote: Lets not forget the Zionist's ultimate goal from the beginning. They didn't just want Palestine, they wanted to extend into much of the Sham (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and so on) and Egypt (Sinai). They grew less greedy over the years but he continuing aggression on the Palestinians created a nation of people so desperate, that they turned to violence for their way out. You think if Hamas and Hezbollah are destroyed there won't be violence anymore? As long as Israel treats Palestinians the way they do, more hate will emerge. And now with this war on Lebanon, the Lebanese people watching children and women being killed, their houses blown up, more hate will emerge. I have no sympathy for those who choose violence as a solution, but I can completely understand why many Palestinians choose to do so when 60% are unemployed, kicked out of their houses, their people being killed on a daily basis, it creates mental breakdown. Non of the Palestinians are sane because the Israelis did that to them.


Oh please...... :roll:



Quote: I have no sympathy for those who choose violence as a solution, but I can completely understand why many Palestinians choose to do so when 60% are unemployed, kicked out of their houses, their people being killed on a daily basis, it creates mental breakdown. Non of the Palestinians are sane because the Israelis did that to them.

Why don't you take a peek at the former Yugoslavia where after years of bloodshed and atrocities the people are now rebuilding their countries and there are no tit for tat terror attacks, and would you believe it, this region even includes muslims!

Now why can't the Middle East do this??!!!

[MoscowMatt]

Pi_314 wrote: vld1 wrote: unseen wrote: I must say that i already knew how f****d the Israelis were but i did not know they were this F***d up. They dont even think of Palestinians as humans they treat the Palestinians as if they were animals, and they will use cunning ways to get Americans public opinions in Israels favor so that their actions are looked at as self defense mechanisms.

If you buy into the whole preception of Palestinians as being terrorist you better take some time and watch this video.

Are you all forgetting how this mess started in a first place?
Hezbollah crossed the border , killed 8 Israeli soldiers and killed 2.
What sovereign country would stand for this? Then those Hezbollah cowards keep launching rockets from locations close to civilians population. What is Israel is supposed to do? All that needs to happen is Hezbollah has to return the kidnapped soldiers and stop hurling Katushas
accross Israeli border. Why the f**ck cant they do it?
Now as far as the whole "unlawfull" occupation of Palestine , let me ask this: do you know that half of territory of present day Turkey consists of
Armenian land , including their ancient and as recent as 19th century capital Erzerum (all of this possible due to successfull Armenian genocide), how about USA and the native Indians ? 6 millions Jews
were murdered during WWII , for thousands of years they were
persecuted and murdered, now for a change they have a chance to defend themselves because nobody else whould do this for them.

If Israel went home after the 67 war and respected borders....we wouldn't be having anywhere near the problems of today. Israel is at fault here. No question about it.

Yeah and if Israel had no need to go anywhere in the first place in defence of their nation....................