Political Crossfire Forums

[thatisnotme]

nrhy wrote: Quote: I doubted very much that Hezbollah would want to reveal exactly where their headquarters are in Beiruth, or where they hide their rockets caches, or where Nasrallah is hiding. And to believe what Hezbollah says about its own casulaty is derisive.

Ehh, I doubt that Olmert would want to reveal where he lives, where he hides his rockets of mass destruction or even where he may be during the day. And to believe that Israel is posting the casualty numbers is just pathetic, its lebanese civil war all over again.

Mai, those are not combat fatigues.

The Israeli army does not hide behind the civilians like Hezbollah to garner international sympathy. As long as Hezbollah has its aim to destroy Israel, there will be no peace. And Lebanon, by tolerating Hezbollah on its soil, is guilty and a legitimate target.

[superskippy]

Quote: What is that count based on?

Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference. 280 dead? 560 will be ready to take their place soon!

The IDF reports from the front. We have fought 7 wars and just as many operational conflicts and campaigns, I have yet to see our casualties be proven to be inflated. The almost always come right onto line with the Arab reports, though with a guerilla group like Hezbollah having them record their own casualties might be impossible.

[nrhy]

thatisnotme wrote: nrhy wrote: Quote: I doubted very much that Hezbollah would want to reveal exactly where their headquarters are in Beiruth, or where they hide their rockets caches, or where Nasrallah is hiding. And to believe what Hezbollah says about its own casulaty is derisive.

Ehh, I doubt that Olmert would want to reveal where he lives, where he hides his rockets of mass destruction or even where he may be during the day. And to believe that Israel is posting the casualty numbers is just pathetic, its lebanese civil war all over again.

Mai, those are not combat fatigues.

The Israeli army does not hide behind the civilians like Hezbollah to garner international sympathy. As long as Hezbollah has its aim to destroy Israel, there will be no peace. And Lebanon, by tolerating Hezbollah on its soil, is guilty and a legitimate target.

Hizbullah doesn´t hide behind civilians, nor has anyone that has sufficient credibility claimed so. Even the IDF claims hizbullah is a tough fight, not because they hide among civilians, but because they are trained, well equiped and dedicated in expelling israel from their lands.

[thatisnotme]

nrhy wrote: thatisnotme wrote: nrhy wrote: Quote: I doubted very much that Hezbollah would want to reveal exactly where their headquarters are in Beiruth, or where they hide their rockets caches, or where Nasrallah is hiding. And to believe what Hezbollah says about its own casulaty is derisive.

Ehh, I doubt that Olmert would want to reveal where he lives, where he hides his rockets of mass destruction or even where he may be during the day. And to believe that Israel is posting the casualty numbers is just pathetic, its lebanese civil war all over again.

Mai, those are not combat fatigues.

The Israeli army does not hide behind the civilians like Hezbollah to garner international sympathy. As long as Hezbollah has its aim to destroy Israel, there will be no peace. And Lebanon, by tolerating Hezbollah on its soil, is guilty and a legitimate target.

Hizbullah doesn´t hide behind civilians, nor has anyone that has sufficient credibility claimed so. Even the IDF claims hizbullah is a tough fight, not because they hide among civilians, but because they are trained, well equiped and dedicated in expelling israel from their lands.

A tough fight because Hezbollah hides behind civilians and attacks civilians -- more than a thousand rockets were launched strictly at Israeli civilians -- and Israel must show restraint in the eyes of the international community, one thing that Hezbollah need not worry and is never criticized.

[Nico]

thatisnotme wrote:
A tough fight because Hezbollah hides behind civilians and attacks civilians -- more than a thousand rockets were launched strictly at Israeli civilians -- and Israel must show restraint in the eyes of the international community, one thing that Hezbollah need not worry and is never criticized.

Hezbollah fire rockets at civilians, yes, but don't think for a second that these guys aren't a proffessional force. people are underestimating their fieldcraft, and organisation. They basically look like a conventional army in the field, if not in the city.

hezbollah targeting civilians is inexcusable, but remember it was a military target they attacked first, and it was Israel that responded by bombing civilian areas in Lebanon, regardless of their aims in doing that. This constant blaming of everybody but the people who drop the bomb is surreal. if you want to gauge a situation properly you have to accept what you do wrong as well as right.



Is hezbollah to blame because someone else bombs a civilian? No, only the person who pressed the button is to blame. In the same way, no one but hezbollah is to blame for the people they kill.

Everybody these days is trying to divorce themselves from responsibility for their actions. Does a civil court accept the argument? No. Self defence doesn't allow for disproportianate actions. When our sensibilities are at threat and we have aligned ourselves mentally with a party, the fear of being wrongdoers kicks in to blame anybody but ourselves and our side.
Ever listened to a former german soldier talk about the war? I have, and the arguments they bring up are remarkably similar to those I'm hearing now from those excusing the deaths of hundreds of women and children in Lebanon.

This is Olmert showing how tough he is when faced with one section level incident at the border. this is politiking. This is why I hate politicians.

hezbollah need to be gone, but no one has the patience to preserve Lebanese lives and nascent democracy to do it the right way.

[Duchifas]

Nico wrote: hezbollah targeting civilians is inexcusable, but remember it was a military target they attacked first, and it was Israel that responded by bombing civilian areas in Lebanon, regardless of their aims in doing that. This constant blaming of everybody but the people who drop the bomb is surreal. if you want to gauge a situation properly you have to accept what you do wrong as well as right.

Stop lying, Nico.

I've been posting all over this forum for a while that Hizbollah shot rockets at Israeli towns before any Israeli response. Everyone on the anti-Israel side has been conveniently ignoring these inconvenient facts.


On July 12, The New York Times wrote: Today’s fighting erupted around 9 a.m. when Hezbollah attacked several northwestern Israeli towns with rocket fire, injuring several civilians, the Israeli military said. Israeli civilians rushed into their bomb shelters and many remained there throughout the day.

But that attack was a diversion for the main operation, several miles to the east, where Hezbollah militants fired anti-tank missiles on two armored vehicles patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence, the military said.

Of the seven soldiers in the two vehicles, three were killed, two were wounded and two were abducted, the military said.

Israel then responded with artillery fire, airstrikes and a naval bombardment that targeted some 40 sites in southern Lebanon. Most were believed to be Hezbollah strongholds, but roads and bridges were also hit in an attempt to keep Hezbollah from moving the captured soldiers further to the north, according to the military.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1153972800&en=bbbdaedfa89c678a&ei=5070

[thatisnotme]

Nico wrote: thatisnotme wrote:
A tough fight because Hezbollah hides behind civilians and attacks civilians -- more than a thousand rockets were launched strictly at Israeli civilians -- and Israel must show restraint in the eyes of the international community, one thing that Hezbollah need not worry and is never criticized.

Hezbollah fire rockets at civilians, yes, but don't think for a second that these guys aren't a proffessional force. people are underestimating their fieldcraft, and organisation. They basically look like a conventional army in the field, if not in the city.

hezbollah targeting civilians is inexcusable, but remember it was a military target they attacked first, and it was Israel that responded by bombing civilian areas in Lebanon, regardless of their aims in doing that. This constant blaming of everybody but the people who drop the bomb is surreal. if you want to gauge a situation properly you have to accept what you do wrong as well as right.



Is hezbollah to blame because someone else bombs a civilian? No, only the person who pressed the button is to blame. In the same way, no one but hezbollah is to blame for the people they kill.

Everybody these days is trying to divorce themselves from responsibility for their actions. Does a civil court accept the argument? No. Self defence doesn't allow for disproportianate actions. When our sensibilities are at threat and we have aligned ourselves mentally with a party, the fear of being wrongdoers kicks in to blame anybody but ourselves and our side.
Ever listened to a former german soldier talk about the war? I have, and the arguments they bring up are remarkably similar to those I'm hearing now from those excusing the deaths of hundreds of women and children in Lebanon.

This is Olmert showing how tough he is when faced with one section level incident at the border. this is politiking. This is why I hate politicians.

hezbollah need to be gone, but no one has the patience to preserve Lebanese lives and nascent democracy to do it the right way.

Your analogy with the German soldier is inappropriate. Germany was planning on expanding by conquering its neighbors -- Austria, Tcheckoslovakia, Poland, etc. Israel is not bent on expanding, except to create buffer zones because the surrounding Arab nations have never taken to accept the existence of the state of Israel. When Egypt made peace with Israel, Sinai was returned to them. If and when Syria makes peace with Israel, the Golan Heights will be returned. Similarly, in Lebanon, when Hezbollah is diarmed or rendered impotent to launch attack on Israeli soil, this offensive will terminate.

[skinn]

Duchifas wrote:


On July 12, The New York Times wrote: Today’s fighting erupted around 9 a.m. when Hezbollah attacked several northwestern Israeli towns with rocket fire, injuring several civilians, the Israeli military said. Israeli civilians rushed into their bomb shelters and many remained there throughout the day.




http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1153972800&en=bbbdaedfa89c678a&ei=5070

the israeli army said?

We are targeting hezbollah infrastructure, the israeli army said.
We are not targeting civilians, the israeli army said.
We occupied bint Jbeil, the israeli army said.

the israeli army is a biased source.

[Di]

I seriously do not understand why people have collective amnesia about what has gone on over the past few years. I'm no Israel fan per se, but I've commented before about what I perceive as a global bigotry and double standard, and many comments from basically intelligent posters on this and other forums enforces my views on that.

Fact: A year ago, Isreal and the Palestinian Authority agreed to a cease fire, whereby Israel would not only withdraw it's troops from Gaza, but all of its civilians/settlers as well. In return for that, the Palestinian Authority agreed to maintain security within Gaza, stop encroachment into Israel, and stop rocket fire into Israel. Well, Israel kept its word. Within days, rockets were spouting out of Gaza again. The world's reaction... "so?" Israel jams a missle on a rocket launching site, or into the living room of the guy whom they believed ordered the attacks, and the world gives a collective gasp of horror. Finally Hamas raids Israeli territory, murders 2 soldiers and kidnaps another... the world's reaction... "so?" Hamas also kidnaps an Israeli teenager, slaughters him, and dumps his body on the side of a road. Israel, thoroughly pissed, goes on a rampage to take out rockets and find soldiers on its own, and the world gives a collective gasp of horror.

Fact: Israel and Lebanon agreed upon a ceasefire in 2000, whereupon Israel would withdraw from all Lebanese territory, and Lebanon would in turn disarm Hezbollah, patrol the southern borders, and enforce the ceasefire. Within weeks, rockets were being fired from Lebanon into Israel. A few years ago, UN "peacekeepers" actually videotaped Hezbollah kidnapping an Israeli soldier and murdering several others. Not only did the UN not try to prevent the action, they tried to keep the videotape away from Israeli authorities. Although this incident was reported in the news, there was certainly no global outcry, nor was there global outcry at any other rocket attacks, etc., mounted by Hezbollah in violation of the cease fire. There was, however, severe global outcry in 2003 (I think) when Israel retaliated by bombing a few Hezbollah targets in southern Lebanon.

Fastforward to 2006. Rockets have continued to fall from Lebanon, then Hezbollah again encroached on Israeli territory, murdering 8 soldiers and kidnapping two more, and the world's reaction was... "so?" Until Israel began it's massive retaliation, at which time the world gives a collective gasp of horror.

So, "unproportional response", I've read. Maybe so. But tell me, what would you do if it was your country, your neighborhood, your home? What would you do after years of making agreements, treaties and cease fires, only to see them broken within days, if not hours? Would you go to the world community and ask for permission to retaliate, and a list of retaliatory measures that the world approved? I think not. Eventually you would decide to make deception and broken promises painful enough that hopefully the citizenry itself would reign in the terrorists that the governments involved are obviously too weak or too corrupt to reign in themselves.

Was this morally right? Of course not. Neither were the repeated provocations that led up to the repeated retaliations on all sides. War itself is not morally right. But there is no moral high ground in using selective double standards to ignore the breaches, murders, and assaults by one side while wailing in righteous indignation at the same tactics used in return.

There are no damned heroes in this conflict, just people on both sides who are hardened by hatred, and the global cheerleaders who grab popcorn, and root for their favorites as if war was a spectator sport. Bah.

[Duchifas]

skinn wrote: Duchifas wrote:


On July 12, The New York Times wrote: Today’s fighting erupted around 9 a.m. when Hezbollah attacked several northwestern Israeli towns with rocket fire, injuring several civilians, the Israeli military said. Israeli civilians rushed into their bomb shelters and many remained there throughout the day.




http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1153972800&en=bbbdaedfa89c678a&ei=5070

the israeli army said?

We are targeting hezbollah infrastructure, the israeli army said.
We are not targeting civilians, the israeli army said.
We occupied bint Jbeil, the israeli army said.

the israeli army is a biased source.

Sure. The Israeli army made up the fact that rockets fell into Israeli towns. Furthermore, they made up the damage from those rockets. And after that, they caught a few random civilians and injured them, to look like they were hit by rockets. Then they ordered the rest into bomb shelters.

All that, so that people would believe that Hizbollah launched rockets at Israeli towns.

:bnghd:

[thatisnotme]

skinn wrote: Duchifas wrote:


On July 12, The New York Times wrote: Today’s fighting erupted around 9 a.m. when Hezbollah attacked several northwestern Israeli towns with rocket fire, injuring several civilians, the Israeli military said. Israeli civilians rushed into their bomb shelters and many remained there throughout the day.




http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1153972800&en=bbbdaedfa89c678a&ei=5070

the israeli army said?

We are targeting hezbollah infrastructure, the israeli army said.
We are not targeting civilians, the israeli army said.
We occupied bint Jbeil, the israeli army said.

the israeli army is a biased source.

So according to you, who is not biased? Let me guess... anyone who agrees with you... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[nrhy]

thatisnotme...what he is saying makes perfect sense. Israeli army is obviously biased...I don´t see why your laughing.

[thatisnotme]

nrhy wrote: thatisnotme...what he is saying makes perfect sense. Israeli army is obviously biased...I don´t see why your laughing.

I don't expect Hezbollah to be unbiased, nor should you with the IDF. Now that we have stated the obvious, can we move on!?!

[nrhy]

hey...you had to point it out. you might aswell say sorry to him :)

[skinn]

My sources say hizbollah targeted military bases the first 2 days. :roll: