Political Crossfire Forums

[FarPastGone]

This is more of a question/statement then a debate topic, however hopefully if the right sources (I am looking for) are provided it will lead in to a healthy discussion.

Today on the Opperation Room (on CNN) they discussed that Israel had claimed to have killed between 120-150 Hezbollah fighters, while Hezbollah claimed Israel had killed only 28 fighters (saying that the reason you can believe Hezbollah's numbers are because they are proud that the men give their lifes for the fight, so they have no reason to distort the numbers). I have also read many articles saying the death toll of Hezbollah fighters has been anywhere from 30-200, even on this forum I distinctly remember a post by an Israeli national that said the Hezbollah death toll had reach 200 today.

So my questions to you are; how are the Israelis able to calculate the number of Hezbollah fighters killed if a majority have been killed by airstrikes?

Its obvious that distorting the number of enemys killed has positive effects in more ways then one on the people of your nation, your military, and the outside world, but do you believe Israel is grossly lossing this war to the point that they have succesfully only eliminated 28 Hezbollah fighters?

I am sorry I have no sources, and I am basing this all along the lines that some of you have come across large variants in the numbers of Hezbollah fighters killed in different articles.

[Redruin]

The answer probably is somewhere inbetween those two numbers. As you've said both sides are biased. In the end it really doesnt matter how many Hezbollah die, as long as just some survive they win. They should have no shortage of new recruits to rebuild with after Israel concludes its campaign

[SpartanPhalanx]

Redruin wrote: The answer probably is somewhere inbetween those two numbers. As you've said both sides are biased. In the end it really doesnt matter how many Hezbollah die, as long as just some survive they win. They should have no shortage of new recruits to rebuild with after Israel concludes its campaign


Indeed Redruin.....the first casualty of war is the truth.

[SaladFingers]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Redruin wrote: The answer probably is somewhere inbetween those two numbers. As you've said both sides are biased. In the end it really doesnt matter how many Hezbollah die, as long as just some survive they win. They should have no shortage of new recruits to rebuild with after Israel concludes its campaign


Indeed Redruin.....the first casualty of war is the truth.

Aye, and CNN anchorhosts sound like they are pro-ceasefire. The job needs to be finished, or else a ceasefire will give Hezbollah time to stop, rebuild, and attack again a few months later with more financing.

Even the Lebanesse prime minister yesterday condemned Hezbollah for interferring with the peace process for the 7th time.

I imagine what will happen, is that southern lebannon will become a de-militarized zone, like what they did in N/S Korea, along the parallel.

Its not like Israel is the bad guy here.. as Henry Kissinger said on msnbc "The Lebanesse government would love nothing more then have control over that region, since the Lebannon civil war, Hezbollah has been to strong for them to control."

If Lebannon can frame Israel as the bad guy + oust Hezbollah from their region AND still befriend neighboring Syria, Turkey, and Jordan, then its a win-win-win.

[mai]

So far, more that 400 have been killed.. The fact is 35% of the injured and 40% of those killed are children.. Unless Hezbollah started recruiting 5-year-olds, I don’t see how Israel killed more than a 100 militants.

[thatisnotme]

Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.

[mai]

thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

[thatisnotme]

mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

UN observers had uniform, and probably passports -- why they were easily identified. Not so with Hezbollah. So it is more probable that many Hezbollahs who were killed are counted among the civilian casualty -- why their numbers are not accurate.

[mai]

thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

UN observers had uniform, and probably passports -- why they were easily identified. Not so with Hezbollah. So it is more probable that many Hezbollahs who were killed are counted among the civilian casualty -- why their numbers are not accurate.

As I said, doesn't the fact that most of the "civilians" killed were women and children tell you that those were NOT militants?! Hell, I was almost killed when I was in Lebanon this summer escaping through the Syrian border in our EMBASSY bus with a HUGE SIGN SAYING UAE EMBASSY on top!? Those UN observers killed contacted the Israeli military 10 TIMES according to the BBC before they got bombed. I wish it was true that most of those killed were militants, the fact is they are not.

[thatisnotme]

mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

UN observers had uniform, and probably passports -- why they were easily identified. Not so with Hezbollah. So it is more probable that many Hezbollahs who were killed are counted among the civilian casualty -- why their numbers are not accurate.

As I said, doesn't the fact that most of the "civilians" killed were women and children tell you that those were NOT militants?! Hell, I was almost killed when I was in Lebanon this summer escaping through the Syrian border in our EMBASSY bus with a HUGE SIGN SAYING UAE EMBASSY on top!? Those UN observers killed contacted the Israeli military 10 TIMES according to the BBC before they got bombed. I wish it was true that most of those killed were militants, the fact is they are not.

I never said that most of those killed were militants. What I said was that Hezbollah fighters who are killed are often not known as Hezbollah fighters by the Israelis and therefore these dead ones are mistakenly counted as civilian casualty.

[mai]

thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

UN observers had uniform, and probably passports -- why they were easily identified. Not so with Hezbollah. So it is more probable that many Hezbollahs who were killed are counted among the civilian casualty -- why their numbers are not accurate.

As I said, doesn't the fact that most of the "civilians" killed were women and children tell you that those were NOT militants?! Hell, I was almost killed when I was in Lebanon this summer escaping through the Syrian border in our EMBASSY bus with a HUGE SIGN SAYING UAE EMBASSY on top!? Those UN observers killed contacted the Israeli military 10 TIMES according to the BBC before they got bombed. I wish it was true that most of those killed were militants, the fact is they are not.

I never said that most of those killed were militants. What I said was that Hezbollah fighters who are killed are often not known as Hezbollah fighters by the Israelis and therefore these dead ones are mistakenly counted as civilian casualty.

Not accurate, that i can agree on, but as some1 here mentioned, im not sure who, Hezbulla takes pride of those who died, so they would mention those who fought for them. And so far, the number of them killed according to Hizbulla (those who would know their own men) did not exceed 30. Yes, I't not 100% sure, but it makes more sense to me.

[nrhy]

just would like to point out. Hizbullah is a resistance army. They have body armor and a nice camouflage military deco. It´s almost like the american commando type, but with more black and the green is darker. They don´t hide among civilians, nor fight with civilians around them.

[mai]

nrhy wrote: just would like to point out. Hizbullah is a resistance army. They have body armor and a nice camouflage military deco. It´s almost like the american commando type, but with more black and the green is darker. They don´t hide among civilians, nor fight with civilians around them.


Yes, something like this? easily recognized if u ask me.

[thatisnotme]

mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: mai wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Hezbollah fighters don't carry tags, or wear a soldier uniform, since their tactics is to hide among the civilians, therefore it is more difficult to identify them. More likely, there are more Hezbollah fighters that were killed than what the Israelis are claiming, since many are unkown to Israeli intelligence.


That makes no sense at all. As I said, if Hezbulla is recruiting children and women then that would make sense. Are those 4 UN observers killed non-tag-carrying Hezbulla militants too?

UN observers had uniform, and probably passports -- why they were easily identified. Not so with Hezbollah. So it is more probable that many Hezbollahs who were killed are counted among the civilian casualty -- why their numbers are not accurate.

As I said, doesn't the fact that most of the "civilians" killed were women and children tell you that those were NOT militants?! Hell, I was almost killed when I was in Lebanon this summer escaping through the Syrian border in our EMBASSY bus with a HUGE SIGN SAYING UAE EMBASSY on top!? Those UN observers killed contacted the Israeli military 10 TIMES according to the BBC before they got bombed. I wish it was true that most of those killed were militants, the fact is they are not.

I never said that most of those killed were militants. What I said was that Hezbollah fighters who are killed are often not known as Hezbollah fighters by the Israelis and therefore these dead ones are mistakenly counted as civilian casualty.

Not accurate, that i can agree on, but as some1 here mentioned, im not sure who, Hezbulla takes pride of those who died, so they would mention those who fought for them. And so far, the number of them killed according to Hizbulla (those who would know their own men) did not exceed 30. Yes, I't not 100% sure, but it makes more sense to me.

I doubted very much that Hezbollah would want to reveal exactly where their headquarters are in Beiruth, or where they hide their rockets caches, or where Nasrallah is hiding. And to believe what Hezbollah says about its own casulaty is derisive.

[thatisnotme]

nrhy wrote: just would like to point out. Hizbullah is a resistance army. They have body armor and a nice camouflage military deco. It´s almost like the american commando type, but with more black and the green is darker. They don´t hide among civilians, nor fight with civilians around them.

Since Hezbollah members do not wear uniforms as required under the laws of war we do not know that most of those killed in Lebanon are actually "civilians". We do not know that the majority of those killed in Lebanon were civilians they may actually have been Hezbollah members acting as unlawful combatants. As for Isreal's bombing campaign, one military commentator noted that Isreal may have resorted to a bombing campaign because of the difficulty of identifying Hezbollah combatants because they do not wear uniforms. If Hezbollah combatants obeyed the laws of war by wearing uniforms Isreal may well have initiated a ground invasion rather then aerial bombings as uniforms would have made Hezbollah combatants easy to identifty.

[superskippy]

I count around 280 Hezbollah dead in 4 days of ground operations and 14 days of aerial bombardment. The battle at Bint Jbail has claimed the lives of around 12 Israelis and more than 100 Hezbollah gunmen as our tank battalions have encircled the town and paratroop battalions moved through.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

superskippy wrote: I count around 280 Hezbollah dead in 4 days of ground operations and 14 days of aerial bombardment. The battle at Bint Jbail has claimed the lives of around 12 Israelis and more than 100 Hezbollah gunmen as our tank battalions have encircled the town and paratroop battalions moved through.

What is that count based on?

Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference. 280 dead? 560 will be ready to take their place soon! :-|

[thatisnotme]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: superskippy wrote: I count around 280 Hezbollah dead in 4 days of ground operations and 14 days of aerial bombardment. The battle at Bint Jbail has claimed the lives of around 12 Israelis and more than 100 Hezbollah gunmen as our tank battalions have encircled the town and paratroop battalions moved through.

What is that count based on?

Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference. 280 dead? 560 will be ready to take their place soon! :-|

And 15,000 Israeli reserves are being called...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743489.html

[FarPastGone]

250 Hezbollah supporters are on their way to Lebanon (200 from Turkey and 50 from Iran).

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/26072006/325/iranian-hardline-students-leave-fight-israel.html

[nrhy]

Quote: I doubted very much that Hezbollah would want to reveal exactly where their headquarters are in Beiruth, or where they hide their rockets caches, or where Nasrallah is hiding. And to believe what Hezbollah says about its own casulaty is derisive.

Ehh, I doubt that Olmert would want to reveal where he lives, where he hides his rockets of mass destruction or even where he may be during the day. And to believe that Israel is posting the casualty numbers is just pathetic, its lebanese civil war all over again.

Mai, those are not combat fatigues.