Political Crossfire Forums

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

U.S state department officials were briefing being the scenes, that there plans to solve this mini-crisis in the Middle east, were being rejected by Arab governments. This is because of the perception of an alleged bias towards Israel.
After hearing that quote on Sky news, while Dr Condi Rice was on her surprise visit to Lebanon.
I thought "An alleged bias towards Israel?" :lol: America does for honest brokering, what the Boston Strangler did for the reputation of door-to-door salesmen.

With the U.S seeing everything through rose tinted glasses concerning Israel. America is missing the bigger picture.
With America's goal to see the ending of Hizbollah peacefully if possible, but by force if necessary. They are going to create more problems than they solve.

The Lebanese government and especially with Prime minister Fuad Siniora, as a whole was a pro-western looking Middle East democracy. What will Israels attack do to Lebanon in the long term? The radicals are already saying "look what happens to you, when you are a friend of Washington in matters which concern Israel, America will never stand up for you or take your side" The people of Lebanon are starkly aware that the U.S sanctioned Israels destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure, the killing of innocent civilians and neither did they limit it to the south Lebanon where Hizbollah are primarily based.

This will have the effect of disenfranchising the moderates and muting there voices. For the more radical elements will continually throw back in the moderates face, "Look what you got and your a friend of the west".
The standard fault lines appear already The U.S and Israel vs the rest. Even Tony Blair after initially backing Israel is being forced to roll back his position after internal party pressure news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5208912.stm

Its not that Tony Blair does'nt want to castigate Israel for the complete bombing of Lebanon. The problem facing Blair is that he signed up to this half-baked idea of this "war on terror" For him to go off message in in regards to Israeli action against Hizbollah will send mixed signals. So he was forced into joining the U.S stance which invariably made him back Israel.

How will this play out with the wider Arab population as a whole? Adnan Abu-Odeh, a former adviser to the late King Hussein of Jordan. sum it up best.
“People know that the Arab governments are impotent and are always looking for excuses to justify their failure to do anything," said Adnan Abu-Odeh “In fact, historically, this episode is another example of how Israel embarrasses the moderate regimes in the region."

So with support around the Arab world galvanizing for Hizbollah, what are the repercussions? IMO This could get very ugly for Israel in two respects. One, by not knocking out Hezbollah, their status as an anti-Israeli resistance grows. Which will make getting rid of them harder.

Two, in not destroying them you will give Hizbollah the status of effectively being a quasi-state within Lebanon.
Has testified by your IDF Generals, Hezbollah is much more resilient than people have believed in the past. also this bombing makes people choose sides, and Hezbollah is the one who is sheltering and feeding them. If you wanted to engrain support across the Arab world for Hezbollah, nothing is better than American TV showing guerrillas feeding women and children bombed out of their homes. This propaganda coup for Hizbollah is priceless. Hizbollah was categorically disliked by most Lebanese outside of their support base. Parliamentary participation proved this point. Support for Hizbollah has rocketed while the people of Lebanon are under siege, they are seen as the only group standing up to the Israelis.

War doesn't work. It won't work for Hezbollah, neither will it work for Israel. But because the Israelis have bet so much on dealing with their enemies, failure to gain total victory means defeat. Limited goals have limited risks. The bet placed by Israel and the U.S to eliminate Hizbollah is a massive risk. For if Israel is forced to come to some settlement without destroying Hizbollah, you will be storing up much further problems down the line. Next time they may even have more sophisticated weapons.

How did we get to this state? There are many answers to that question. One of the answers to that question, is that the U.S is now officially seen as a dishonest broker.

theshield · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 350

Plato & Socrates wrote: America is missing the bigger picture.

America is the only country that see the big picture.Here is a summary of the big picture for you, straight from Al-Jazeera TV:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Maybe this will finally may YOU understand the "big picture"

SaladFingers · Joined: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 190

theshield wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: America is missing the bigger picture.

America is the only country that see the big picture.Here is a summary of the big picture for you, straight from Al-Jazeera TV:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Maybe this will finally may YOU understand the "big picture"

Dude! That link was very awesome. I enjoyed watching it. I liked the part where the guy asks her "Are you a heretic? If so then none of this is your concern." LOL wow..

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

As I wrote on another thread: To destroy Israel, one would need to destroy the US and Europe, which will never stand by and let the destruction of Israel take place. This a simple fact that obviously most Muslims don't understand, otherwise they would NOT encourage Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist groups whose sole aim is to destroy the state of Israel.

In the Lebanon crisis, the US and Israel don't want a truce or a cessation of hostility, not until Hezbollah is decimated and pushed farther to the north so that their rockets will not fall on Israeli soil. Hezbollah must understand that its military aim -- to destroy Israel --- is pure folly.

Redruin · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 924

Excellent post Plato. The White House is clueless on how to deal with the ME conflict. It is embarassing watching Rice say striving for peace is useless now.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

theshield wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: America is missing the bigger picture.

America is the only country that see the big picture.Here is a summary of the big picture for you, straight from Al-Jazeera TV:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Maybe this will finally may YOU understand the "big picture"

It was an extremely good link, one of the best shown to me by a fellow forum member. What that wonderful, brave and educated women said, I agree with her 99%. I have on numerous occasions laid bare, Arab world short comings. I will not blind myself to the blindingly obvious. But for myself and especially you, to pretend the Arab world has'nt been short changed and seriously aggrieved?
We would be deluding ourselves. Not only that, but the west has a whole does'nt address their concerns.

Their concerns are only secondary to our own, and that has been the case for the last century. The major complaint of the west is that we don't like the Arab/Muslim world methods of descent, which is primarily based on violence against civilian targets. But at our peril, we continue to ignore there grievances. Plus with America's role being so bias & dishonest it only exacerbates the problem.

vadardenza · Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 7

I don't think that Europe would mind if Israel was forced to leave the occupied territories and remove the settlements they have built on stolen lands. I also suspect that the EU may place sanctions on Israel after this Israeli screw up. I think the Israelis have done the bridge too far thing. We, in Europe, have to live in peace with Muslims.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8673 Location: Petah Tikva

Right the EU will place sanctions on us. They arent going to do it and you know it. Even if they did we do more export trade to the lead Europeon Nations than we import from them. Also what we sell, Industrial Diamonds, military equipment, electronics, software, technological exports, etc will always have a market to go to even without Europe.

As for imports they then lose a major market, nations like Egypt or Iran the lead nations of the Arab League dont have the advanced economy to replace as for that type of market that we fill.

It's a net loss for an EU market especially considering how many technological and software and computer corperations have their factories, headquarters, and research centers based in the new "Silicon Valley of the world" Israel.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

vadardenza wrote: I don't think that Europe would mind if Israel was forced to leave the occupied territories and remove the settlements they have built on stolen lands. I also suspect that the EU may place sanctions on Israel after this Israeli screw up. I think the Israelis have done the bridge too far thing. We, in Europe, have to live in peace with Muslims.

Good luck.

23KIA · Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Right Behind You

Duchifas wrote: vadardenza wrote: I don't think that Europe would mind if Israel was forced to leave the occupied territories and remove the settlements they have built on stolen lands. I also suspect that the EU may place sanctions on Israel after this Israeli screw up. I think the Israelis have done the bridge too far thing. We, in Europe, have to live in peace with Muslims.

Good luck.

I liked your picture, but this one is my fave

theshield · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 350

Plato & Socrates wrote: theshield wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: America is missing the bigger picture.

America is the only country that see the big picture.Here is a summary of the big picture for you, straight from Al-Jazeera TV:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Maybe this will finally may YOU understand the "big picture"

It was an extremely good link, one of the best shown to me by a fellow forum member. What that wonderful, brave and educated women said, I agree with her 99%. I have on numerous occasions laid bare, Arab world short comings. I will not blind myself to the blindingly obvious. But for myself and especially you, to pretend the Arab world has'nt been short changed and seriously aggrieved?
We would be deluding ourselves. Not only that, but the west has a whole does'nt address their concerns.

Their concerns are only secondary to our own, and that has been the case for the last century. The major complaint of the west is that we don't like the Arab/Muslim world methods of descent, which is primarily based on violence against civilian targets. But at our peril, we continue to ignore there grievances. Plus with America's role being so bias & dishonest it only exacerbates the problem.

The name of the lady is Wafa Sultan she is a psychiatrist who fled Syria after members of the Muslim Brotherhood gunned down one of her university professors in the classroom.

Now, believe me when i am saying that i do not enjoy sitting with Europeans in the same boat.But whether you like it or not ,we are in the same boat.The nature of the conflict as she put it so nicely is: "The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs in the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilizations and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality".

That is the BIG PICTURE that YOU fail to see.

When there will be more people like her in the Arab/Muslim world (and in this forum i saw only one and he was Arab christian not Muslim).There will be viable peace.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

theshield wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: America is missing the bigger picture.

America is the only country that see the big picture.Here is a summary of the big picture for you, straight from Al-Jazeera TV:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Maybe this will finally may YOU understand the "big picture"

That's one brave lady. Very admirable. We need to help these people.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

vadardenza wrote: I don't think that Europe would mind if Israel was forced to leave the occupied territories and remove the settlements they have built on stolen lands. I also suspect that the EU may place sanctions on Israel after this Israeli screw up. I think the Israelis have done the bridge too far thing. We, in Europe, have to live in peace with Muslims.

Quote: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

You guys don't learn very fast do you? Or is it just cowadice?

If it is I feel sorry for you, because cowards do not survive in this world.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

cap'n queasy wrote: That's one brave lady. Very admirable. We need to help these people.

Yeah right! :roll: Your government helps the governments that kill, imprison, and torture people like her on a daily basis.

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

Plato & Socrates wrote: "An alleged bias towards Israel?"

THe US, along the EU, will never stand by and watch the destruction of Israel. It is obvious that the Muslim world doesn't understand this simple fact, otherwise they would not encourage the radical elements in their society whose sole aim is to destroy Israel.

theshield · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 350

I think you give too much credit to the EU.

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

theshield wrote: I think you give too much credit to the EU.

On the contrary, not enough credit is given to the EU.

theshield · Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 350

What make you think that the EU gives a damn about Israel? They think they can appease the Muslims, and if the price is sacrificing few Jews WTF.

thatisnotme · Joined: 26 Mar 2006 Posts: 452

theshield wrote: What make you think that the EU gives a damn about Israel? They think they can appease the Muslims, and if the price is sacrificing few Jews WTF.

Israel is a democracy and shares many values with the West. Also, the greatest danger comes from Iran. With its nuclear programs and missiles, every European nation could be a target. Also, the EU is part of NATO, along with the US. Should the US comes to aid Israel, which would happen if Israel was attacked, Nato (or the EU, since most are part of both organizations) would have to respond.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2198 Location: 3rd rock

cap'n queasy wrote: vadardenza wrote: I don't think that Europe would mind if Israel was forced to leave the occupied territories and remove the settlements they have built on stolen lands. I also suspect that the EU may place sanctions on Israel after this Israeli screw up. I think the Israelis have done the bridge too far thing. We, in Europe, have to live in peace with Muslims.

Quote: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

You guys don't learn very fast do you? Or is it just cowadice?

If it is I feel sorry for you, because cowards do not survive in this world.

In that case, Israel's time must almost be up Cap'n.

In case you missed it, 4 UN observers were murdered yesterday by a precision Israeli air strike. The Israelis were shelling the UN position all day and finally at 7pm local time an Israeli precision guided missile finally took out the position. The UN commander on the ground was in contact with Israeli positions all day pleading for them to spare his post.

Kofi Annan said it as it is yesterday and he stands by his assertion that Israel deliberately targeted the UN position.

The below BBC link details that The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5217176.stm

Ive said it before and I'll say it again...THE ISRAELIS ARE COWARDS

Stick that in your pipe Cap'n.