Political Crossfire Forums

[perdidochas]

britboy wrote:

Me, personally, I put my money on the guy thats full time been practising burglary for 5 years straight. He does it for a living. Every night. He's not one bit as scared as you. He has done all the same training you have and a load more practical experience, and isn't groggy and fearful for his family. In fact .. hate to break it to you . but if he's remotely worried about your 'Special Delta force small firearm tactic removal squad (consisting of you creeping round in your jim-jams)' he'll just call up a couple of his mates to cover him. 4 vs 1. You lose again.

A burglar that does it for a living isn't going to break into occupied homes. The risk factor is too high. The professional burglar is going to stick to unocccupied dwellings. The burglars that break into occupied dwellings are the amateurs, the crack addicts, and the ones intent on other crimes. The first two are no worry for a semi-competent armed person. The third is a problem regardless, and at least a gun gives a physically weak person a chance against them.

[airo]

britboy wrote: airo wrote: britboy wrote: airo wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: airo wrote:

More like, they have holsters that they CCW outside of their home with, and they don't undo their belts, and remove them as soon as they step through their door.

Two or so months ago a man had his door kicked in, and was shot dead infront of his wife. His house was then robbed.

A gun, like any other tool, is only good if you have access to it. What good is a knife if you need to cut something and it's not in your hand?

As your little story shows, the American robber is coming with a gun and will shoot first, how guns can save your life when guns are the ones killing you?

:-D
:-D

One word: Training.

I WILL be better then any **** who wants to illegally set foot on my property.

There's more to being a responsible firearm owner then just owning firearms. Part of being responsible is being trained. Similarly to actually having your weapon available to you, your weapon is no good if you are no good with it. If you cannot draw it efficiently, aquire a target quickly, fire a string of shots fast and accurately, and then reload your firearm, you may as well not even carry it, because if you do need it, there's nothing you can do with it.

The majority of people who would use their illegal firearms illegally against you aren't trained. They don't shoot regularly, nor can they even do so accurately. They don't know what tactics and mindset are, and in a jam, the only thing they're concerned with is getting your wallet, or your woman. It's your responcibility as a firearm owner to not only be equipped to stop tem from getting to either of those, but to also be better trained, and mentally sharper. If you aren't, don't even bother carrying a gun, because the best you can do is get someone innocent hurt.

So Airo -- if you arn't as well trained and as 'mentally sharp' as your local burgler -- don't bother carrying a gun?

Tactics? Mindset? Aquiring a target quickly? Mate -- you've just woken up at 3am in the morning because some nob-end wants your playstation. What are you gonna do? a commando roll out of your bed whilst simultaneously loading three pistols? Then think about operational awareness and tactical sustainability of firepower whilst flanking the enemy?

What a load of BS. You'll be sh*t-scared (if you've got any sense), and you'll creep around with your gun in exactly the same way I did when, aged 11, I used to play 'A-team'.

Me, personally, I put my money on the guy thats full time been practising burglary for 5 years straight. He does it for a living. Every night. He's not one bit as scared as you. He has done all the same training you have and a load more practical experience, and isn't groggy and fearful for his family. In fact .. hate to break it to you . but if he's remotely worried about your 'Special Delta force small firearm tactic removal squad (consisting of you creeping round in your jim-jams)' he'll just call up a couple of his mates to cover him. 4 vs 1. You lose again.

I take it you've never trained in any specific martial art, firearm related or otherwise. Would that be a correct assumption?

Training mostly involves inscribing actions and reactions into muscle memory, so you don't need to think. Target acquisition and assessment should be second nature, as should the act of shooting in general. That said, you shouldn't be "thinking" about how to react at 3 in the morning when you hear something go bump in the night, you should just act. If you're trained properly, you shouldn't need to think about it.

Did you know that in the majority of police shootings the officers involved NEVER remember using their sights? Training. Acting, not thinking.

I just read how a person was taking a class. In the middle of one of the drills, his firearm suffered a failure. He cleared the failure, and continued firing without even realizing what he had done until after the drill was over. Training.

Cognitive thoughts and actions go out the door in a tight spot, and training and instinct take over, in that order. That's why training is important. Otherwise, panic takes over, and, more often than not, the untrained individual locks up. I've seen people who've never live-sparred before go into a full-contact match and literally go into the fetal position because they didn't know how to react, and weren't trained sufficiently.

You don't know what you're talking about, and i'd advise you stop posting on the issue of "training" ;)

And yes, if you don't bother being skilled with your firearms, i don't believe you should be carrying. I've never advocated that everyone and their mother should be allowed to CCW, and, in fact, i've actually argued to make the process of acquiring a permit harder, forcing a CCW holder to qualify yearly. As i've said before, if you aren't trained with your firearm, more then likely you'll only get yourself, or another innocent hurt if you try and employ it.

Whoa Airo -- you are arguing for the anti-gun lobby here you realise!

It is nice to see you joining the ranks of the anti-gun people .. welcome aboard.

So let's have a summary of your current anti-gun policies you are advocating:

1) It should be harder to aquire a CCW permit, we should force a CCW holder to quality yearly. Cool. Watch out .. all the pro-gunners will be stating you're taking away their rights and all that rubbish -- but don't worry, we'll stick together and fend them off.
2) People that have less training or gun ability than a potential intruder should not own a weapon. Cool again. A potential intruder could involve a soldier that has spent the last 8 years practicing with his firearm. If you're not better than him, when you're in your jim-jams at 3am, -- get rid of your firearm! Again we agree! Wow together we're gonna have to think of a practical way to stockpile all these weapons that should be given in to the authorities.
3) Training mostly involves inscribing actions and reactions into muscle memory, so you don't need to think. WOW! Anyone that needs to think when using their firearm should not have one. If you NEED to think whilst using a firearm, you are not sufficiently trained. I LOVE IT! This is more radically anti gun THAN ANYONE I HAVE READ ON THIS BOARD! I have never known anyone to shoot a gun without thinking. You've swept up jsut about every gun owner in the US in the 'shouldn't ACTUALLY have a gun' statement. Wow! I aspire to you radical anti-gun stance!

So far you've stated about 99.99% of all US gun holders shouldn't actually be holding guns! You've gone beyond the LL school of thought! Welcome aboard.

Honestly, in all seriousness, I hate to say it but you've been watching too much goofy 80s TV. You see how many of your fellow gun supporters really believe the gun handler shouldn't have to think about what he's doing. This whole 'Pure instinct Ninja school of feeling at power with the gun and letting subconscious thought take you into a state of harmony with your surroundings' line of thought -- I mean come on -- its a load of BS. Don't ask me -- ask the pro-gun lot. Ask them how many of them want to stop thinking whilst using their gun and, in fact, are TRAINED to not need to think. I dare you .. I double dare you. :lol:

I never said that the untrained shouldn't own weapons. Don't put words in my mouth ;)

I said that a person who cannot qualify shouldn't be able to carry, and this includes police as well as civilians. (That is to say, i think police qualifications should be stepped up.)

Now, i'm curious, what credentials do you have to be able to talk about training with any confidence? Do you regularly train with firearms? Do you regularly shoot? Do you regularly drill? Are you a martial artist? Are you military with combat experience?

I'm not military, (Though i will be joining the USMC next summer.) but i am a martialist, i shoot regularly, i drill regularly, and i read the opinions of people much more skilled than I regularly, and, more importantly, i talk to people who've been there, done that, and are willing to pass their knowledge onto me, regularly. You don't do any of that, do you? (I was also trained to shoot by my father, a retired LEO with QRT/TAC experience.)

The entire purpose of training IS to ingrain actions into memory, so that when you revert back to instinct, your instinct will be what you trained. It's a basic concept that has been utilized by the martial system since the first art was developed thousands of years ago, and has continued to this day in the forms of drills, force on force training, sparring, and other forms of "training" that various individuals undergo.

Again, you're not just underminding my opinion on the matter, you're basically saying Bruce Lee was a chump, Basic and Bootcamp are pointless and we should just send troopers into Iraq because it's pointless to train them, the hundreds of hours a month that MMA fighters spend training is worthless, and SWAT shouldn't need to train, because it won't help them when they're out on a call.

Oh, and i don't think you got what i was saying. (Well, that's obvious since you're still anti-gun.) Thinking means thinking about what you have to do. Plain and simple. In a jam, you don't think. If you've never been in a SHTF situation before, and you think you can make conscious decisions... well, you're mistaken. Whether it's a street fight, or combat, humans revert back to instinct, actions that are inscribed within their mind, and tend to act autonomously. As i've stated, many people who are untrained go into one of the best forms of defense they learned early on in life: the fetal position. Others resort back to whatever training they've had, and manage the best they can. Threat assessment, target acquisition, actually shooting, reloading, etc., are all products of training. This is evidenced by police officers and even military personnel who can hardly remember a firefight after the fact. I'm sure if you ask any of them of their first firefights, they will be able to tell you the jist of what happened, but as far as how many times they reloaded, what they used as a point of reference for aim, or how many shots they fired, without seriously sitting down and thinking about it, they won't be able to answer, simply because their actions were autonomous.

Seriously, explain to me your alternative to drilling, and training, because you obviously know better then I.